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  1. #1
    Senior Member concernicus's Avatar
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    single pivot suspension

    im beginning to contemplate the purchase of a heckler, but i dont know much about the single pivot suspension. is it reliable? is it super sweet? is there a better option out there? im looking for a really awesome all mountain full suspension bike. let me know guys

  2. #2
    Throw the stick!!!! LowCel's Avatar
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    Is it reliable?
    yes

    Is it super sweet?
    Well, it's pretty sweet.

    Is there a better option out there?
    What is your price range?
    I may be fat but I'm slow enough to make up for it.

  3. #3
    Senior Member concernicus's Avatar
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    i dont have a set price range yet. im just window shopping. im just wondering what your input on that type of suspension system was. i have heard people say that single pivot wasnt all that hot.

  4. #4
    In search of moar cowbell dminor's Avatar
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    Stable Platform Valving breathed new life into the trusty single pivot design. It's hard to go wrong with the simplicity of single pivot. The Heckler is akin in design to the venerable Bullit (except the upper shock mount is moved), but not as good as my ASX (which has the swing link and dogbone for a better action). Whatever you're looking at, as long as the shock has some sort of pedaling platform, it should be OK. Good luck - - let us know what you end up getting.

  5. #5
    Colorado Trail Rider
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    The simple single piviot design was one of the first rear suspension designs that hit the market, over the years, subsequent designs, more complex and complicated, have been devleoped, but as stated the development of SPV has allowed this simple design to remain viable.
    Simple design also = fewer moving parts = less opportunity for failure.

    All that positive press on the single piviot, and I bought a NRS, with the multi point Specialized system.
    (Screaming deal, as I was saving for my own Heckler)
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  6. #6
    Te mortuo heres tibi sim? scrublover's Avatar
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    SP works very well, if, as any suspension design..... super simple/few parts to break, especially in the forms that use large sealed bearings at the main pivot.

    it is executed properly, and utilizes a decent shock.

    most SP designs these days, from any reputable company are very good, especially if you pair it with some form of stable platform shock.

    the Heckler in particular makes a fine do it all bike. you can xc race it. you can do pretty big hucking and dh stuff on it. it's a great all day trail bike. you can build it light or burly, and everything in between depending on your riding needs.
    I believe the clouds in my coffee more than the weatherman on t.v.

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    yeah the heckler looks bad ass... i'm prob gonna get one in a few moths... what about the four-bar suspension designs? do you think they are any better?

  8. #8
    Throw the stick!!!! LowCel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Selector
    yeah the heckler looks bad ass... i'm prob gonna get one in a few moths... what about the four-bar suspension designs? do you think they are any better?
    Which four-bars are you talking about? All four bars are not created equally. Some are better than the heckler and some are just plain worthless. However, in order to get a four bar that is better than the heckler it is going to be in a higher price bracket.
    I may be fat but I'm slow enough to make up for it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LowCel
    Which four-bars are you talking about? All four bars are not created equally. Some are better than the heckler and some are just plain worthless. However, in order to get a four bar that is better than the heckler it is going to be in a higher price bracket.
    yeah i was thinking of Ellsworth Rouge and kona stinky or coiler... what do you think

  10. #10
    Te mortuo heres tibi sim? scrublover's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Selector
    yeah i was thinking of Ellsworth Rouge and kona stinky or coiler... what do you think

    very different bikes, and at very different pricepoints. the ells has the rear pivot on the chainstay (the horst link design, though TE has his own market speak for it ICT), the konas have it on the seatstay.
    better to compare the ellsworth to a turner or a ventana than a kona. seatstay pivot four bar bikes act more like a single pivot, because in effect, they are. a linkage driven SP bike.

    they're all decent bikes, but comparing a kona to the others isn't in the same ballpark. they are fine bikes, but the others are much more refined in terms of the piivot placement and axle paths. bottom line: this is why the ells/ventana/turners are *generally* better pedaling designs over the kona. you're paying for that refinement in the much higher pricetag than the average kona though.

    depends on what your budget for a frame is.
    I believe the clouds in my coffee more than the weatherman on t.v.

  11. #11
    Throw the stick!!!! LowCel's Avatar
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    For all mountain check out the Ellsworth Epiphany or the Moment. They are both awesome. However be prepared to spend two to three times as much on the frame as the Heckler frame costs. The Epiphany frame is $2,395. The Moment frame is $2,295. The Rogue is a bit more of a big hit bike, it sells for $2,395 as well.
    I may be fat but I'm slow enough to make up for it.

  12. #12
    Banned. Hank Rearden's Avatar
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    brake jack

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    so is the four-bar better than a single? what four-bar frames are compareable to the heckler

  14. #14
    Te mortuo heres tibi sim? scrublover's Avatar
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    here's a better way to decide. go ride as many various bikes as your local shops will let you. seriously. that'll do you more good than taking everyone's advice here. hit some demo days if possible.

    everyone's view as to what is a superior suspension design, and how they ride is very subjective.

    i'm partial to the simplicity of the single pivot. (mostly because it's what i have, and it works for me; my next frame may be something entirely different.) others like four bar/horst link designs. others like non-horst designs. all sorts of variations.

    what exactly do you want out of the bike? hucker? dh? heavy duty trail bike? do it all bike? people asking advice on websites really need to elaborate on that sort of thing before asking what to buy. and what they are riding now, what they like/don't like about it. otherwise, it's really hard to give any sort of real useful advice.
    I believe the clouds in my coffee more than the weatherman on t.v.

  15. #15
    Old School Rad mtnbiker66's Avatar
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    I have a Bullit and I dig it. If you ride it hard it will brake jack so you have to learn to work around it a little bit. Overall it's a good system.
    Like a circus monkey on a stolen Harley......

  16. #16
    Te mortuo heres tibi sim? scrublover's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hank Rearden
    brake jack

    true but..... only if noticable. i've had my bullit clone in all sorts of riding and trail conditions/speeds, and it hasn't been noticable to me. i'd like to get a decent ride on some other designs to see if i then notice the lack of it though. after coming from riding a hardtail for so long, it's all new to me. that would give me an idea whether i want to stick with SP or go for something else on my next frame down the road.

    that and the flex issue with some designs are the only two real drawbacks in my mind.
    no idea how big the guys asking about them are, but at my 160 or so pounds fully loaded and on the bike, rear end flex has been a non-issue.

    is hank reardon who i think he is?
    I believe the clouds in my coffee more than the weatherman on t.v.

  17. #17
    Banned. Hank Rearden's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by scrublover
    is hank reardon who i think he is?
    Yes. No. Maybe.

    my single pivot bike has NO brake jack BTW.

  18. #18
    Throw the stick!!!! LowCel's Avatar
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    I never noticed brake jack the entire time I had my Superlight. It wasn't until I bought my Truth that I figured out what it was, because I no longer had it.

    Not sure if that makes sense or not.
    I may be fat but I'm slow enough to make up for it.

  19. #19
    Banned. Hank Rearden's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LowCel
    It wasn't until I bought my Truth that I figured out what it was, because I no longer had it.
    Many people don't understand brake jack until they ride a bike that doesn't have it.

    mt single pivot bike, by design, doesn't have brake jack.

  20. #20
    Te mortuo heres tibi sim? scrublover's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hank Rearden
    Yes. No. Maybe.

    my single pivot bike has NO brake jack BTW.

    floater? or just the design? i think i know what yours is.

    i'm going to have to ride a few others non-SP bikes to see how they feel by comparison. i've only had some parking lot testing of other bikes to go by at this point.

    that said, i'm pretty happy with mine so far, considering it's my first suspension bike. a nice cheap but halfway decent frame to introduce me to the squishy world. if i ride something else and like it, i'd just want to go and buy a new frame. not that that is a bad thing, mind you. i've been seriously lusting after the couple turner six pack frames i've seen.
    Last edited by scrublover; 02-21-06 at 07:09 PM.
    I believe the clouds in my coffee more than the weatherman on t.v.

  21. #21
    Banned. Hank Rearden's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by scrublover
    floater? or just the design?
    A floater by design.


  22. #22
    Te mortuo heres tibi sim? scrublover's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hank Rearden
    A floater by design.
    nice. i've thought about an aftermarket floater setup for mine, but i believe the money would be better spent towards a new frame. whenever that is ready to happen. probably to something that isn't in need of a floater to start with. i figure i'll ride the rubber bullit another year or two, while trying to ride/test as many others as i can. then i'll be better able to know what i like, dislike, and want for a frame with 5-7" of travel
    I believe the clouds in my coffee more than the weatherman on t.v.

  23. #23
    Senior Member Deanoldo's Avatar
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    Another single pivot to throw out there is the Yeti 575. I got one back in August, so I'm partial to it..... My old bike is an '03 Stumpy FSR, so it's a HL 4 bar. It doesn't have the platform shocks that the Stumpy's have now and I notice some bob. Not enough to bother me, but it was there. The new one's come with a platform shock, so it's probably much better. As far as the Yeti, I've never noticed any brake jack but I may not have a delicate enough feel..... It has a Fox RP3 shock and I think it bobs less than the Stumpy (mostly due to the shock). Now comparing the two bikes isn't really fair because they are in very different price points, but as far as single pivot vs. 4 bar, I have found it to be basically a wash. A riding buddy had a Heckler with a coil shock and he really liked it...... It sure is a lot of fun shopping and test riding!!!!

  24. #24
    Senior Member concernicus's Avatar
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    thanks for all the help. however, im not quite sure i understand brake jack, especially as i have never owned a full suspension bike. it is my belief that brake jack happens when the rear brake locks up because the rotor is moving in the same direction as the rear shock or something to that extent. am i far off? is it noticeable, and or a big deal?

  25. #25
    DEADBEEF khuon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by concernicus
    thanks for all the help. however, im not quite sure i understand brake jack, especially as i have never owned a full suspension bike. it is my belief that brake jack happens when the rear brake locks up because the rotor is moving in the same direction as the rear shock or something to that extent. am i far off? is it noticeable, and or a big deal?
    Brake jack is basically suspension movement caused by applying the brake. The torque from the spinning wheel is transferred into the brake mount which causes a moment to be applied against the pivot point via the suspension arm. The result is compression of the suspension which tends to lift the wheel off the ground thereby reducing traction. Another side effect of this is that braking forces become inconsistant through the suspension travel and may in fact prematurely lock up as you've mentioned. This is more pronounced on single pivot designs but can be worked around by floating the rear brake on its own so that braking forces no longer act against the suspension arm. There are other ways to prevent brake jack by careful location of the pivot point relative to the rear dropout and brake mounting location.
    1999 K2 OzM 2001 Aegis Aro Svelte OCP Club Member
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