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This time its for real... I can't climb for ****

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This time its for real... I can't climb for ****

Old 03-24-06, 09:32 PM
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This time its for real... I can't climb for ****

Hell, I have great stamina and endurance, I can go downhill, go at jumps, drops, stuff, small steep climbs where you need burst all day long and I'll recover in and instant to keep going no problem... but as far as progressive climbs go... I go at the softest gear, at a very slow speed and my legs starts getting a tingly, painful sensation after a while, I never lose my breath but my legs can't simply take the abuse.

That sucks, any idea to improve my ability on LONG climbs?
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Old 03-24-06, 09:34 PM
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like I always say, have robotic legs
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Old 03-24-06, 09:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Chone
Hell, I have great stamina and endurance,
By definition, you don't.

Originally Posted by Chone
That sucks, any idea to improve my ability on LONG climbs?
Ride more.
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Old 03-24-06, 10:02 PM
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Hank, thats a very simple way to put it but it is only half right. It reads like you are a power rider. You probably relate better to sprinters, running backs and track cyclists than you do runners, endurance cyclists and well...runners. I can relate to your dilema at 100%. I am and always will be a power person. I sprint, I have raw power and tonnes of real strength. Get me using my muscles in a consistent usually dull way and my muscles and lungs give out (not to mention my add kicks in and I want to jump off a cliff ).

The answer is not always to ride more, if your muscles are built that way than you may be sol. My fibre makeup in my legs is for squats, clean and lifts, and tackling people. No matter how much riding I will do I could never compete long haul with the xc guys. I warn everyone I ride with about that, I love to ride, but am not physically built for it. No matter how much you ride, assuming you are in shape now, I will NEVER compete on an endurance level with other riders. My muscle fibre makeup was pre-determined at birth...I can progress, but it is a slow agonizing process compared to my xc buds.

Bonus is I have been able to dunk since I was a child and hit like I am a mobile brick wall, I leg press a tonne and can clean and jerk enough weight (usually one of my friends) to impress my drunk buddies ...but I can't xc ride to save my life.
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Old 03-24-06, 10:14 PM
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Actually to clarify, I can ride for hours, however if it is a long consistent spin ride with little or no movement, my legs burnout, if it is 3 hours with up, down, and technical and allowing some torquing etc, I can last as it gives me brief rests, it is only the long and spinning type rides that hurt my brain and my legs...
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Old 03-24-06, 10:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Maelstrom
Hank, thats a very simple way to put it but it is only half right.
No, it's 100% right, by defintion.

____________

stam·i·na1 (stăm'ə-nə) pronunciation
n.

Physical or moral strength to resist or withstand illness, fatigue, or hardship; endurance.

____________

He doesn't have stamina, or endurance for long climbs. If he's interested in hanging on long climbs he needs to ride more. Specifically, much more LSD rides (long, slow, distance).

I've ridden with anumber of folks that are built like sprinters, running backs, etc. (fast twitchers) and they've been able to build a good deal of endurance for sustained efforts by riding more (training properly). And heaven help you if they decide to sprint the last 1/4 mile of the climb. They're gone.
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Old 03-24-06, 10:44 PM
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Use a much higher gear. When I got my bike, I was trying to get up all these hills in First in front, 4th in rear,(22 teeth in front, 30 in rear?) and I found it was much easier to get up hills by using a higher gear, like 2 up front, and 5 in rear. Play with your gears more.
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Old 03-25-06, 12:24 AM
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There is actually a medical explanation for this. (i'm a nurse practitioner by the way)

You have more of something called "fast-twitch" muscle fibers. This makes people great sprinters, but lousy when it comes to sustained high-power output.

Some other people have a higher ratio of 'slow-twitch' fibers, which can sustain contraction for a MUCH longer period of time. These people are better endurance riders.

MOST people have about a 60/40 mix of slow to fast twitch, but the ratio varies by muscle group.

If you are in the medical field, you can actually have muscle tissue analyzed and the exact ratio can be given to you...although its quite painful.

I have an upper-body ratio of 63/37 fast-to-slow ratio...but my lower-body ratio is (i dont remember this one exactly) something like 68/32 slow-to-fast ratio. It is very common for most people to have a higher slow-twitch ratio in the lower body, as humans walk with their legs and therefore need more endurance in the lower body.

To use myself as an example, my numbers mean I would be a GREAT endurance biker...but a pitiful sprinter (which I am). It also means that while I could probably hit like a brick wall (I dont make a habit of getting in bar fights...I'm a lover, not a fighter) I wouldn't be able to for long before my arms got tired.

You have probably noticed something similar if you lift weights. You can probably lift LOTS of weights with your legs, but cannot do it repeatedly before your muscles start to complain about it..lol. Try it with your upper body, too. You will probably find the same thing to a much greater degree as your upper body will usually have an even higher ratio of fast-to-slow fibers.

For the record....NO ONE has a perfect 50/50 ratio. Everyone has a higher number of one or the other.


Its just the way your body is put together. I started learning about this in college when I joined the track team. I had always thought of myself as a quick runner (I was always pretty good at soccer and football and such), until I tried running the 100 dash. I got passed so quick my head spun. The coach put me in the 2 mile instead. Although I was nervous about it because I hadn't trained to run long distances, I found it easy....and actually finished the entire last lap at a full-speed run.

You see....you just have to find what kind of build you have...and then play that to your advantage.

You CAN 'cheat' the system to some degree however. If you want to train your 'fast-twitch' fibers more to give your better 'burst' strength, then you would lift relatively light weights very rapidly.

If you want better "slow-twitch' endurance, then you do the opposite....you life relatively heavy weights slowly.

On a bike, this means that you need to switch into a higher gear and PUUUUUSH those cranks....I mean really put some power down...and KEEP doing it for as long as your legs will hold you up.

Take a day off to rest inbetween, make sure you take in enough protein to heal damaged muscle fibers and to enlarge the ones you have...and eat enough carbs to replenish the lost glucose that is stored in the major muscle groups.

I would say if you are REALLY serious about boosting your endurance, I would pedal hard to muscle fatigue no more than 2x a week...then take it easy for a few days.

the BEST system is to work fast-twitch one day...slow-twitch the next. That way, you are boosting your overall performance all at the same time.

Remember, slow-twitch fibers are just that...they contract much more slowly, but with MUCH greater force than fast-twitch fibers. It's those slow-twitchers that are burining out on you on those long climbs.

Oh, and for the record...that tingly/burning you feel in your legs? That's a build-up of lactic acid in your muscles from anaerobic metabolism. That means you're pushing harder than your muscles can tolerate. Drink lots of fluids, and train before you ride that hard.

Also, martial arts of some kind can usually boost your overal performance, as they are usually very balanced between power and endurance.


For comparison:

Fast-twitch muscle fibers can withstand a state of full-contraction only for approx 30 seconds before they can no longer sustain a contracted state due to a build-up of lactic acid.

Slow-twitch fibers can sustain a state of full contraction for approx. 200 seconds or so before they have to relax.


Boy...I'm glad I paid really close attention in physiology class lol

Last edited by CrashVector; 03-25-06 at 12:39 AM.
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Old 03-25-06, 12:56 AM
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whoa... that is sooo comprehensive lol!
i think i might have to try that in the summer (taking in consideration i have school all the time!!!)
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Old 03-25-06, 01:33 AM
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sorry for the long post...I just figured I'd give the medical explaination about why some people are better sprinters and why some people are better endurance riders.
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Old 03-25-06, 09:34 AM
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thats fine... atleast you didnt use 20 letter words that doctors seem to be fond of.
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Old 03-25-06, 10:22 AM
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Originally Posted by CrashVector
MOST people have about a 60/40 mix of slow to fast twitch, but the ratio varies by muscle group.
Thanks, it slipped my mind, muscle biopsies are brutal and painful to be sure.
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Old 03-25-06, 10:48 AM
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Originally Posted by Chone
...... I go at the softest gear, at a very slow speed and my legs starts getting a tingly, painful sensation after a while, I never lose my breath but my legs can't simply take the abuse.
Keep doing long climbs & Throw in some hill intervals too. It sounds like to have to raise you LT .

here is a link all about it.

Enjoy
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Old 03-25-06, 11:19 AM
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I didnt read the article, but I'm guessing LT stands for 'Lactose Threshold"?


It all binds into what I said earlier.

In actuallity, you do not increase the level of lactose your muscles can handle, what happens is your muscles get increased blood flow which makes the lactose "wash away" faster instead.
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Old 03-25-06, 11:55 AM
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Crash Vector knows his stuff - fast twitchers can develop stamina though & certainly enough to climb hills without burning out, but they will for sure never compete with a slow twitch athlete who trains just as hard. It is just a case of progressive training, a bit further, higher each time & ignore the burn - you can certainly improve and get closer to what yr potential is.

I spent quite a few years as a teenager trying to gain muscle, lifted weights, eat loads and made very little progress - I'm predominantly a slow twitch fibre ectomorph... also correct in that Martial Sports help develop both - it has been the most effective method to develop any power & strength for me.
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Old 03-25-06, 12:16 PM
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yeah...medical school tends to do that to a person..LMAO!

I, too spent the better part of my teenage years trying to bulk up. I lifted weights like CRAZY but could never build mass.

I found out why in college.

The main problem with being predominantly fast-twitch is exactly what was stated above: You are GREAT over short distances, but for anything requiring endurance, people that are predominantly slow-twitch are faster.

It would be like a sprinter trying to run the 1 mile. They would SMOKE the rest of the field for very short time, but after the first lap or so, the rest of the field would catch him.

The thing is fast-twitch fibers are mostly used by the autonimous nervous system (reflexes, etc). Slow-twitch fibers are 90% as strong, but last something like 500% longer. So if I could somehow choose my genetics, I would be 90/10 slow -to fast ratio since someone with more slow-twitch fibers would actually be much stronger.
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Old 03-25-06, 02:22 PM
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Gaining muscle is easy. I never had an issue, Can't run worth beans though. I would probably change my genetics only slightly. I enjoy the raw power I have but would appreciate a bit more muscular endurance.

Strength without power is virtually useless in my opinion.
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Old 03-27-06, 10:22 AM
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There are lots of long gradual climbs around here. Unlike steep hills where I use the smallest ring up front and the larger rings in the rear, I like the second ring up front and the middle rings (usually 3-6) in the rear. When I feel my legs reaching critical mass I simply click up a ring or two in the rear. It helps maintain efficiency, but takes some of the felt load off your muscles and allows them to recover some.

Remember standing up off your saddle also helps stretch your legs, and isn't as restricting for circulation, which helps fend off lactic acid build up.
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Old 03-27-06, 01:18 PM
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Just get off your bike and walk.
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Old 03-27-06, 07:24 PM
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I have a good mix of in between both fast and slow twitch muscles. I usually sprint up hills, 200-500meters long, but at the end, I'm wasted, I just fall off my bike and lay on my back...I can run many many laps. I find that my mental strength outlasts my physical. If I stop during an exhausting exertion, my mind stops and I collapse, however if I don't stop, my mind urges me onward.
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Old 03-27-06, 11:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Maelstrom
Actually to clarify, I can ride for hours, however if it is a long consistent spin ride with little or no movement, my legs burnout, if it is 3 hours with up, down, and technical and allowing some torquing etc, I can last as it gives me brief rests, it is only the long and spinning type rides that hurt my brain and my legs...
Lotsa tricks: In and out of the saddle. Watch the big pro roadies on a climb, unless it's a short time trial they're up for awhile and then seated for a bit. Break up the pattern so you don't just pound the same muscles full time. Next do rest strokes, every other turn soft pedal with a leg, first one then the other. Alternately, if ya gotta gun, hard pedal alternating legs every couple of turns. Again, mix up the muscle recruitment. Find the breathing patterns for different levels of exertion, five turns per breath or seven, which is better when? Be sure to get out of the saddle just for blood flow, assuming the position for long periods sucks. Work on your pedal stroke are you scraping back at the bottom of the stroke?

Anyway, a few ideas and they'll give you stuff to think about other than the pain in your legs.

Ron
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Old 03-28-06, 11:39 AM
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Interesting. I will give that a try, I always just tried the spinning, but I found it very monotonous, turning it into a game might work for me, thanks.
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Old 03-28-06, 04:40 PM
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I love climbing. Nice, long steady climb is where I am happy. Back when I had gears, I would go a little bit in a harder gear, then when I got tired, I would change to an easier gear. Once I recovered, I could switch back. Now, I can climb faster because I ride the singlespeed. Nothing is better than passing a geared rider on the uphills, except for when they smoke you going downhill in the big ring. Anyway, to make yourself a better climber, just do it more.
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Old 03-28-06, 06:39 PM
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i never shift while going uphill....but i ride many diferent styles, i ride a bit of bmx which gets me brute stregnth, road which gives me endurance, and Mountain, my true love, a cocktail of both. I just say ride more
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