Derailleur - Long cage or short cage?
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Derailleur - Long cage or short cage?
Whats the difference other that obvious length...
What are the Pros/Cons of each if any? Thanks.
Also, do I need special shifters for a "rapid rise" derailleur?
What are the Pros/Cons of each if any? Thanks.
Also, do I need special shifters for a "rapid rise" derailleur?
Last edited by MaxBrokeAway; 06-27-07 at 11:39 AM.
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wow...nobody?
Well also I have another question...the derailleur im looking at says its "Mega 9" speed compatible...im running an 8 speed...can i used a 9 speed derailleur with my 8 speed set-up?
Well also I have another question...the derailleur im looking at says its "Mega 9" speed compatible...im running an 8 speed...can i used a 9 speed derailleur with my 8 speed set-up?
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Originally Posted by MaxBrokeAway
Whats the difference other that obvious length...
What are the Pros/Cons of each if any? Thanks.
Also, do I need special shifters for a "rapid rise" derailleur?
What are the Pros/Cons of each if any? Thanks.
Also, do I need special shifters for a "rapid rise" derailleur?
advantage of the short is that it won't catch on rocks and roots as often as the long
Rapid rise will work with your existing shifter but many opt for a remote shifter that mounts on your bar ends...allows you to shift faster on those harder climbs
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Unless you're planning to ride an 11-23 cassette on the back of your mountain bike, I would go with a long cage derailleur. The only MTBs I've seen short cage derailleurs on have been downhill bikes.
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I did a google search for short cage derailleur advantages and found this. It sounds good and makes sense to me.
All the derailleur cage does is take up slack in the chain when smaller rings/cogs are in use. It follows that:
Short cage= Common on bikes with a narrower range of gears, especially road doubles. Allegedly better shifting (not really true). The ability to run a shorter chain, which means less chain slap on a mountain bike, and generally more tension on the chain. Better ground clearance (off road), but most derailleurs die from catching sticks, not hitting the ground. Lighter by a very tiny bit. Looks cool to some people.
Long cage= Common on road triples and almost all mountain bikes. Can handle a longer chain, which means that it can handle a larger "chain wrap." This means you can have a wider range of gears without experiencing slack in the chain, or having to use a chain that is too short for some gear combinations.
You should be able to use a mega 9 derailleur on an 8 sp setup.
I think you can use your current shifters but the shifting might be backwards. If you shift up with your thumb, now you may shift down with your thumb. Or something like that.
All the derailleur cage does is take up slack in the chain when smaller rings/cogs are in use. It follows that:
Short cage= Common on bikes with a narrower range of gears, especially road doubles. Allegedly better shifting (not really true). The ability to run a shorter chain, which means less chain slap on a mountain bike, and generally more tension on the chain. Better ground clearance (off road), but most derailleurs die from catching sticks, not hitting the ground. Lighter by a very tiny bit. Looks cool to some people.
Long cage= Common on road triples and almost all mountain bikes. Can handle a longer chain, which means that it can handle a larger "chain wrap." This means you can have a wider range of gears without experiencing slack in the chain, or having to use a chain that is too short for some gear combinations.
You should be able to use a mega 9 derailleur on an 8 sp setup.
I think you can use your current shifters but the shifting might be backwards. If you shift up with your thumb, now you may shift down with your thumb. Or something like that.
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Sorry, I'd have responded when I saw it but I figured better people than I would chime in. As jm01 pointed out, the obvious advantage to short-cage is that it doesn't hang down in harm's way as far.
The downside, as he also alluded to, is that a short-cage is not capable of the physical range necessary to accomodate a wide-range cog cluster and three front rings. Most derailleurs have a set range of total tooth-count that they can handle. Short-cage dreailleurs get used by downhillers a lot because of the clearance advantages and the fact that they are only running a single ring up front so wildly-varying amounts of chain don't have to be taken up or let out.
Oh, and a '9-speed dreailleur' can be used in an 8-speed system - - the indexing of the shifters is what determines 8- or 9-speed.
The downside, as he also alluded to, is that a short-cage is not capable of the physical range necessary to accomodate a wide-range cog cluster and three front rings. Most derailleurs have a set range of total tooth-count that they can handle. Short-cage dreailleurs get used by downhillers a lot because of the clearance advantages and the fact that they are only running a single ring up front so wildly-varying amounts of chain don't have to be taken up or let out.
Oh, and a '9-speed dreailleur' can be used in an 8-speed system - - the indexing of the shifters is what determines 8- or 9-speed.
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Think of it like this, a short cage won't let you use the gear combinations you shouldn't be using anyways! If you are the type of rider who always is aware of what combination you are in and where you want to be going a short cage works well. If you tend to cross chain (big big especially) better get yourself a long cage to avoid potential catastrophy.
I switched from a long XT to a short XTR this year and was blow away by the increased shifting performance. How much is related to the "X" and how much to the short cage is debatable. So far I've had no issues on my 2 X 8 drivetrain.
Short cage DOES look better, that of course is reason enough to go short and learn how to shift.
I switched from a long XT to a short XTR this year and was blow away by the increased shifting performance. How much is related to the "X" and how much to the short cage is debatable. So far I've had no issues on my 2 X 8 drivetrain.
Short cage DOES look better, that of course is reason enough to go short and learn how to shift.
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A long cage derailleur takes up more unused chain. The more gearing range you have, the more slack chain you'll need to take up. Here is a simple rule of thumb since most of us are probably use wide MTB cartridges instead of the Pine Cone rode jobs.
1 chainring - Short Cage
2 chainrings - Medium Cage
3 chainrings - Long Cage
This will probably guarantee that you can shift into any ring/cog combination without either binding the chain or allowing the derailleur to go slack. Some people do deliberately choose to use a shorter derailleur and they will consciously avoid cross chaining "big/big" and "small/small" combinations. On my current setup, I cannot shift into my 44/32. I willingly sacrifice that gear as I'm rarely in the big ring and when I am I'm on flat ground so I have more time to get back into the middle if I need a lower gear.
1 chainring - Short Cage
2 chainrings - Medium Cage
3 chainrings - Long Cage
This will probably guarantee that you can shift into any ring/cog combination without either binding the chain or allowing the derailleur to go slack. Some people do deliberately choose to use a shorter derailleur and they will consciously avoid cross chaining "big/big" and "small/small" combinations. On my current setup, I cannot shift into my 44/32. I willingly sacrifice that gear as I'm rarely in the big ring and when I am I'm on flat ground so I have more time to get back into the middle if I need a lower gear.
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ok...thanks for the reply...
so what im gonna do is get a long cage Shimano LX rear derailleur
what I have gathered is that even though it says 9 speed, it will work with my 8 with no problems.
MY ONLY CONCERN at this point is that its "rapid rise" and as a poster stated earlier, it may reverse my shifting on my current shifters...I.E. if i shift down with my trigger now...it will reverse with a rapid rise derailleur and shift up with my trigger...is this true??? (by the way Im using ST-EF29 ez fire shifters)
so what im gonna do is get a long cage Shimano LX rear derailleur
what I have gathered is that even though it says 9 speed, it will work with my 8 with no problems.
MY ONLY CONCERN at this point is that its "rapid rise" and as a poster stated earlier, it may reverse my shifting on my current shifters...I.E. if i shift down with my trigger now...it will reverse with a rapid rise derailleur and shift up with my trigger...is this true??? (by the way Im using ST-EF29 ez fire shifters)
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Originally Posted by MaxBrokeAway
ok...thanks for the reply...
so what im gonna do is get a long cage Shimano LX rear derailleur
so what im gonna do is get a long cage Shimano LX rear derailleur
what I have gathered is that even though it says 9 speed, it will work with my 8 with no problems.
MY ONLY CONCERN at this point is that its "rapid rise" and as a poster stated earlier, it may reverse my shifting on my current shifters...I.E. if i shift down with my trigger now...it will reverse with a rapid rise derailleur and shift up with my trigger...is this true??? (by the way Im using ST-EF29 ez fire shifters)
The ST-EF29 is a traditional "high normal" shifter. Do NOT buy a rapid a Rapid Rise Derailleur for it. While you are upgrading, you may wish to ditch those ST-EF29s as they are bound to fail. The worse problem these have is that the rider hooks their thumb over that "tab" and tears the cover in half. Once that happens, it's all down hill.
Check out Pricepoint.com. They have great deals on derailleur/shifter combos as well as brake levers. Consider a SRAM shifter/derailleur. They're lower maintenance then Shimano.
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Originally Posted by MaxBrokeAway
Whats the difference other that obvious length...
What are the Pros/Cons of each if any? Thanks.
Also, do I need special shifters for a "rapid rise" derailleur?
What are the Pros/Cons of each if any? Thanks.
Also, do I need special shifters for a "rapid rise" derailleur?
I'll be different. I put an X9 medium cage on my 11-32 XT cassette, no problems. It replaced an old XT long cage RD. I find it shifts a little quicker , but that may be attributed to being a new SRAM.
#13
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Originally Posted by willtsmith_nwi
The ST-EF29 is a traditional "high normal" shifter. Do NOT buy a rapid a Rapid Rise Derailleur for it.
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Originally Posted by gastro
The "normality" of the system is determined solely by the derailleur, and has nothing to do with the shifter. It'll work just fine.
For some, this very well may be desirable but will result in much confusion if you go to ride another bike. Sure it will work. It will go through all the gears. But I'm not sure if I consider "reverse shifting" fine. It's somewhat anomalous in my book.
Use low-normal (rapid rise) shifters with low normal (rapid rise) dérailleurs. The side effect of this is that you shouldn't be using 2:1 SRAM shifters with Rapid Rise (probably the intended effect).
Use high-normal (traditional) shifters with high-normal (traditional) dérailleurs.
The caveat is that if you want to reverse the shifting action and re-order the labels on your gears such that the smallest cog is 1st and the biggest cog is 9th (or 8th) then use a hetero-low/high normal combination of shifter and derailleur.
Last edited by willtsmith_nwi; 06-29-07 at 09:07 AM.
#15
one less horse
Originally Posted by willtsmith_nwi
For some, this very well may be desirable but will result in much confusion if you go to ride another bike. Sure it will work. It will go through all the gears.
Originally Posted by willtsmith_nwi
But I'm not sure if I consider "reverse shifting" fine. It's somewhat anomalous in my book.
Either way, I would bet the OP doesn't appreciate your implication that he is not smart enough to handle it.
#16
one less horse
Originally Posted by willtsmith_nwi
Use low-normal (rapid rise) shifters with low normal (rapid rise) dérailleurs. The side effect of this is that you shouldn't be using 2:1 SRAM shifters with Rapid Rise (probably the intended effect).
Use high-normal (traditional) shifters with high-normal (traditional) dérailleurs.
Use high-normal (traditional) shifters with high-normal (traditional) dérailleurs.
Originally Posted by willtsmith_nwi
The caveat is that if you want to reverse the shifting action and re-order the labels on your gears such that the smallest cog is 1st and the biggest cog is 9th (or 8th) then use a hetero-low/high normal combination of shifter and derailleur.
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Originally Posted by gastro
Have you ever spent any serious trail time on a bike equipped with an RR derailleur, or does this chapter of your book consist of mere speculation?
Either way, I would bet the OP doesn't appreciate your implication that he is not smart enough to handle it.
Either way, I would bet the OP doesn't appreciate your implication that he is not smart enough to handle it.
I am NOT criticizing Rapid Rise shifters. I have spent a little time with one with a dual control system. But after research it turns out that Shimano does not market "rapid rise" shifters.
So yeah, RapidRise derailleurs make your system backward. One can certainly acclimate to it. But woe be to those who get on another mans bicycle with a traditional pull derailleur. Shifting is not something you think about. Good shifting is conditioned response just like good braking is. This is why those who ride motorcycles as well move their front brake the right hand side of their bar.
ON EDIT:
You know what ... there IS such a thing as a low-normal shifter. They're called dual control. These two things came out at the same time and they were meant to work together as the spring assists the more "challenging" aspect of shifting which is getting the chain onto larger cogs. Bikes shipping with Shimano match triggers with high-normal and dual control with Rapid Rise.
Taking an existing control surface and redefining it's function is just stupid. It would be like switching the gas pedal and brake pedal in your car and calling it a feature. It would be like starting park at the bottom and having to move levers in the opposite direction to get to drive. The fact that it will work given proper acclimation is besides the point. It's counter-intuitive and dangerous.
OP, since you have a high-normal shifters that are designed to work with high-normal dérailleurs (and these shifters DO indeed have numeric gear indicators) you want a traditional high-normal derailleur. Otherwise all your subsequent test rides at the bike store, demo days and friend's bikes will suck as everything will be backwards.
Last edited by willtsmith_nwi; 06-30-07 at 09:58 AM.
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luckily I found an XT rear derailleur that has the High-Normal shifting...shimano XT RD-M751
#19
one less horse
Originally Posted by willtsmith_nwi
But after research it turns out that Shimano does not market "rapid rise" shifters.
Originally Posted by willtsmith_nwi
So yeah, RapidRise derailleurs make your system backward.
Originally Posted by willtsmith_nwi
One can certainly acclimate to it.
Originally Posted by willtsmith_nwi
But woe be to those who get on another mans bicycle with a traditional pull derailleur.
Originally Posted by willtsmith_nwi
Shifting is not something you think about.
Originally Posted by willtsmith_nwi
Good shifting is conditioned response just like good braking is.
Originally Posted by willtsmith_nwi
This is why those who ride motorcycles as well move their front brake the right hand side of their bar.
Originally Posted by willtsmith_nwi
You know what ... there IS such a thing as a low-normal shifter. They're called dual control. These two things came out at the same time and they were meant to work together
Originally Posted by willtsmith_nwi
Taking an existing control surface and redefining it's function is just stupid. It would be like switching the gas pedal and brake pedal in your car and calling it a feature. It would be like starting park at the bottom and having to move levers in the opposite direction to get to drive.
Should I presume that you have difficulties driving an automatic car if the shifter is on the steering column as opposed to the center console? How do you fare with manual transmissions?
Originally Posted by willtsmith_nwi
The fact that it will work given proper acclimation is besides the point.
Originally Posted by willtsmith_nwi
It's counter-intuitive and dangerous.
Originally Posted by willtsmith_nwi
OP, since you have a high-normal shifters that are designed to work with high-normal dérailleurs (and these shifters DO indeed have numeric gear indicators) you want a traditional high-normal derailleur. Otherwise all your subsequent test rides at the bike store, demo days and friend's bikes will suck as everything will be backwards.
And if, as you say, "shifting is not something you think about," what are you doing looking at those indicators anyway?
No bile here, btw - it's more like mild bemusement at this end.
Last edited by cryptid01; 07-01-07 at 10:21 AM.
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Originally Posted by gastro
It's funny how you dwell on those shift indicators. Have you ever ridden a bike without them? Do you think it's possible to do so?
And if, as you say, "shifting is not something you think about," what are you doing looking at those indicators anyway?
No bile here, btw - it's more like mild bemusement at this end.
In a famous experiment a researcher once attached a visual apparatus to a women which turned up to down and left to right. She was completely disorientated and virtually unable to walk. However, after a week she acclimated and was fine. You may think this supports your position. However, when they took it off it took another week for here to set herself straight again.
This is not a matter of "intelligence". This is your nueral hardware wiring itself to do automatic kinesthetic operations. You can't think your way through this. In order for these operations to become automatic, your brain has to rewire itself.
Lower thumb is downshift. If you redefine this you're going to cause problems. I have no problems with other systems that do the same differently. Gripshift, Dual Control, Thumbies, Friction shifters are all fundamentally different motions. However, if you redefine ANY of these by lacing them to a
to a derailleur that does the opposite of what they're used for, you have a problem.
I have no problem with dual-control/low-normal as these are different motions and should not cause acclimation problems when going from one thing to another. But if you put a low normal derailleur with a Shimano trigger shifter, it WILL be backwards.
I'll tell you what, you find an OEM bike that ships with Dual-Control and High Normal OR Trigger/Low Normal and I'll drop my argument.
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Originally Posted by Pete Fagerlin
What is this problem that you're referring to?
For many years I ran "normal" XTR on my lighter bike and Rapid Rise XTR on my heavier bike. Switching back and forth I never noticed the "problem" that you've concocted.
Maybe it was so subtle that I missed the problem? Please elaborate.
For many years I ran "normal" XTR on my lighter bike and Rapid Rise XTR on my heavier bike. Switching back and forth I never noticed the "problem" that you've concocted.
Maybe it was so subtle that I missed the problem? Please elaborate.
B) Are you using triggers on both bikes. Or do you have triggers on one and flippy shifters on the other?
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Originally Posted by Pete Fagerlin
Yes. I was using triggers on both bikes.
If you say you never have a problem, I really question your honesty. When you have to think about an action it has not been internalized kinesthetically and it WILL be a slower reaction.
Hey but if it works for you ... that's great. I don't care. This was about advising the OP about which derailleur to get. Every new bike in every bike shop that bears his shifter is teamed with a high normal derailleur. Judging from Shimano's reintroduction of High Normal in XT/XTR this is probably a good indicator of what type of problems people have using their old shifters with new XT/XTR low normal derailleurs.
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do all of the posts on this forum end in a battle? or is it just mine...
#24
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Originally Posted by MaxBrokeAway
do all of the posts on this forum end in a battle? or is it just mine...
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Originally Posted by Pete Fagerlin
What kind of half-assed question is that?
You're making a big deal out of something that is no big deal apparently in some vain attempt at proving some point that appears to only matter to you.
It's just shifting gears ona bike after all.
p.s. You still haven't described this alleged "problem," depsite being asked about it a number of times.
Originally Posted by MaxBrokeAway
do all of the posts on this forum end in a battle? or is it just mine...
I want the OP to avoid the problem of having his shifting be backwards of what everyone else has. Misshifting at critical times can lead to crashes. Gastro and Pete are trying to validate their own setups when they've never been attacked. I don't think they give a rip about the original poster.