Cycling and bicycle discussion forums. 
   Click here to join our community Log in to access your Control Panel  


Go Back   > >

Mountain Biking Mountain biking is one of the fastest growing sports in the world. Check out this forum to discuss the latest tips, tricks, gear and equipment in the world of mountain biking.

User Tag List

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 09-01-03, 09:01 AM   #1
math2p14
Part of the furniture
Thread Starter
 
math2p14's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Exeter UK, Athens Greece.
Bikes: Specialized RH, Scott Unitrack
Posts: 930
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Race Face 2004 New Cranks.INFO READ!!!

Hi all. After all the speculations and questions for the new raceface 2004 products i got all the answers that you need directly from Raceface.

Raceface Diabolus Cranks: About the same price with NorthShore cranks combined with a Signature series BB. These new cranks are for DH/FR and they come in a special splined system that fits ONLY the new Raceface diabolus BB that has the bearings placed outside the frame (ala XTR).

Raceface Deus XC cranks : Same price with the Turbine LP + Signature XS bb. Again as in the diabolus case, these are ONLY compatible with the new Deus bb with externally placed bearings.

Availability of these cranks : Feb/March 2004. Again note that they are incompatible with ISIS bottom brackets.

Evolve XC/DH cranks : Replacement for the prodigy series with revised aesthetics. same performance same price. Availability Oct 2003.

Yannis
math2p14 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-01-03, 02:06 PM   #2
Maelstrom 
Wood Licker
 
Maelstrom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Whistler,BC
Bikes: Transition Dirtbag, Kona Roast 2002 and specialized BMX
Posts: 16,885
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Sounds great...I want the diablous but I definately don't need that kind of crank ...thats a lot of beef
Maelstrom is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-01-03, 02:08 PM   #3
math2p14
Part of the furniture
Thread Starter
 
math2p14's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Exeter UK, Athens Greece.
Bikes: Specialized RH, Scott Unitrack
Posts: 930
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
400$+ Is pretty steep for something new and untested . Anyhow. Deus XC will be an Anti-XTR solution with the same price , Diabolus will be an Anti-Saint solution again with the same if not higher price.
math2p14 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-01-03, 03:38 PM   #4
khuon
DEADBEEF
 
khuon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Catching his breath alongside a road near Seattle, WA USA
Bikes: 1999 K2 OzM, 2001 Aegis Aro Svelte
Posts: 12,242
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Do you know if the Deus cranks will completely replace the Turbine cranks? Will the Next cranks carry on? Will the Diabolus and Deus BB interface be compatible with one another? Will the interface design(s) become an open-spec like ISIS or be licensed out to other manufacturers? Is the new interface design(s) a reflection on problems found in the failures of some ISIS BBs?
__________________
1999 K2 OzM 2001 Aegis Aro Svelte
"Be liberal in what you accept, and conservative in what you send." -- Jon Postel, RFC1122
khuon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-01-03, 03:57 PM   #5
math2p14
Part of the furniture
Thread Starter
 
math2p14's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Exeter UK, Athens Greece.
Bikes: Specialized RH, Scott Unitrack
Posts: 930
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
This New ISIS type system seems to be a solution for bearing problems on current ISIS stuff. Turbines i think will stay in production as well as all the existing models. Only prodigy will be replaced by the evolve series. I really dont know if Deus is interchangeable with Diablo or if the system is licenced. So far i know that its an exclusive Raceface spline system.
math2p14 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-07-03, 03:13 AM   #6
ngrover
Newbie
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Bikes:
Posts: 4
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Turbines still live.

Deus is not expensive, i just pre-ordered some and they cost roughly half of XTR (comes with rings, bb, arms).

The Deus BB is compatible with XTR cranks.
ngrover is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-07-03, 03:28 AM   #7
math2p14
Part of the furniture
Thread Starter
 
math2p14's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Exeter UK, Athens Greece.
Bikes: Specialized RH, Scott Unitrack
Posts: 930
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Hey ngrover, where did you pre-ordered the Deus from? got any prices for the Deus/Atlas/Diabolus? Any specs? Please post any addresses.
math2p14 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-07-03, 10:00 AM   #8
ngrover
Newbie
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Bikes:
Posts: 4
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Don't know exactly how much the rest of the lineup is....just that my local shop was please to find out how relatively inexpensive they are. The shop placed the pre-order and is located in Manitoba Canada. I don't see why any RaceFace dealer can't do the same.

all i have is photos from the net. i have seen the new catalog but of course it's at the shop ant they got it from a bike show in Montreal so I can't recite it to you:
http://www.speedgoat.com/vegas/IB04.asp?item=51
http://www.speedgoat.com/vegas/IB04.asp?item=52

and the best link is this one (prices in euro's):
http://www.bikeaction.de/raceface/innenlager/xtype.html
use the drop down menu to select which raceface product you want to find specs on.

I ordered mine in 180mm and price included rings, x-type bb, and arms.
ngrover is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-07-03, 10:24 AM   #9
bac
Senior Member
 
bac's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Pennsylvania
Bikes: Too many to list!
Posts: 7,481
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by math2p14
These new cranks are for DH/FR and they come in a special splined system that fits ONLY the new Raceface diabolus BB that has the bearings placed outside the frame (ala XTR).
Where are the people who bash Shimano for making proprietary stuff? Is this not the same deal?
bac is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-07-03, 10:49 AM   #10
ngrover
Newbie
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Bikes:
Posts: 4
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
like i said, the deus bb works with xtr cranks. i THINK the deus and diabolus bb's are interchangable so that would mean that the diabolus bb SHOULD work with XTR.

shimano put a patent on their bottom bracket because they didn't want anyone to make compatible parts. RaceFace got around shimano's patent by having the non-drive arm fixed to the bb axle instead of the drive side like shimano did. so raceface has made the effort to make compatible parts, not shimano.

by fixing the bb axle to the non-drive side crank arm, raceface acutally has an advantage over xtr. with xtr, because the bb axle is fixed to the drive side, if anything goes wrong with the drive arm or bb axle then the unit as a whole is much more expensive to replace than if the axle is fixed to the non-drive side. This is how raceface explained it to my local shop mechanics when they went to the bike show in Montreal. other than that, they are the same. the axles are the same diameter and length and so the bottom bracket cups with their outboard bearings are totally compatible with xtr.

Last edited by ngrover; 11-07-03 at 03:15 PM.
ngrover is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-07-03, 04:31 PM   #11
bac
Senior Member
 
bac's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Pennsylvania
Bikes: Too many to list!
Posts: 7,481
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by ngrover
like i said, the deus bb works with xtr cranks. i THINK the deus and diabolus bb's are interchangable so that would mean that the diabolus bb SHOULD work with XTR.

shimano put a patent on their bottom bracket because they didn't want anyone to make compatible parts. RaceFace got around shimano's patent by having the non-drive arm fixed to the bb axle instead of the drive side like shimano did. so raceface has made the effort to make compatible parts, not shimano.

by fixing the bb axle to the non-drive side crank arm, raceface acutally has an advantage over xtr. with xtr, because the bb axle is fixed to the drive side, if anything goes wrong with the drive arm or bb axle then the unit as a whole is much more expensive to replace than if the axle is fixed to the non-drive side. This is how raceface explained it to my local shop mechanics when they went to the bike show in Montreal. other than that, they are the same. the axles are the same diameter and length and so the bottom bracket cups with their outboard bearings are totally compatible with xtr.
Wow - good information! ThanX!!!
bac is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-07-03, 04:33 PM   #12
math2p14
Part of the furniture
Thread Starter
 
math2p14's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Exeter UK, Athens Greece.
Bikes: Specialized RH, Scott Unitrack
Posts: 930
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Thanks man...awesome piece of info i really appreciate.
math2p14 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-08-03, 02:06 AM   #13
ngrover
Newbie
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Bikes:
Posts: 4
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
no problem.

i just noticed on the German site i posted that is says: "Einbaunorm wie Shimano XTR und XT-Lagersysteme." (for the deus and diabolus bb). If my guess is correct, this would confirm that both bb's are compatible with the new shimano system.

check it out: http://www.bikeaction.de/raceface/innenlager/xtype.html
ngrover is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-08-03, 03:12 AM   #14
math2p14
Part of the furniture
Thread Starter
 
math2p14's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Exeter UK, Athens Greece.
Bikes: Specialized RH, Scott Unitrack
Posts: 930
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
They are indeed compatible with the new XTR/XT/Saint. The prices dont look that bad imho. The Atlas costs the same as the msrp of a Turbine LP with rings, but you get the bonus of a free bb
math2p14 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-17-03, 07:18 AM   #15
meat_chris
Newbie
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Bikes:
Posts: 4
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
so what are the advantages of having the bearings external in the new Raceface/Shimano BBs?
meat_chris is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-17-03, 07:37 AM   #16
Singlespeedster
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Wheat Ridge, CO
Bikes:
Posts: 305
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Larger bearings, longer life.

I wonder how long it will take before the problem REALLY gets solved and somones comes up with a bigger bb shell for frames. Something about the size of the EBB shell would solve all of this external bearing kerfuffle.
Singlespeedster is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-17-03, 07:48 AM   #17
math2p14
Part of the furniture
Thread Starter
 
math2p14's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Exeter UK, Athens Greece.
Bikes: Specialized RH, Scott Unitrack
Posts: 930
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
new bb shell means new frames...and the idea sucks big time in my opinion
math2p14 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-17-03, 07:54 AM   #18
Singlespeedster
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Wheat Ridge, CO
Bikes:
Posts: 305
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by math2p14
new bb shell means new frames
Well, yes. That's fairly obvious

Quote:
...and the idea sucks big time in my opinion
I'd like to hear more about this.

Don't get me wrong. When I was at interbike, I drooled over these with everyone else:





But it all seems to fly in the face of the K.I.S.S. principle.
Singlespeedster is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-17-03, 07:56 AM   #19
math2p14
Part of the furniture
Thread Starter
 
math2p14's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Exeter UK, Athens Greece.
Bikes: Specialized RH, Scott Unitrack
Posts: 930
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
K.I.S.S. principle? can you explain?
math2p14 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-17-03, 07:59 AM   #20
Singlespeedster
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Wheat Ridge, CO
Bikes:
Posts: 305
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Keep It Simple, Stupid. (Mind, that not aimed at you)

A mantra of engineers.

For example; this violates the K.I.S.S. principle:

Singlespeedster is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-17-03, 08:10 AM   #21
math2p14
Part of the furniture
Thread Starter
 
math2p14's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Exeter UK, Athens Greece.
Bikes: Specialized RH, Scott Unitrack
Posts: 930
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I perfectly agree with you. In general i believe that companies dont bother to refine and develop current systems and they prefer to invent or "invent" a new one replacing the older system. In most cases the new system is more complex and is only produced to give innovation credit to the company and ofcourse to justify a price increase. An ISIS bottom bracket with the quality of Hope or CK or Hadley or PhilWoods would in my opinion outperform and outlast the new XTR/Raceface thingy....but obviously both shimano and raceface decided to ditch octalink and isis in favor of the new external thing. I dont really care since i havent invested in isis...i am still using a crap taper crank. I dislike the idea of new standards popping out every 2-3years and i strongly dislike the idea of having standards that render your equipment unusable (for example a new bb-shell size standard or the 1.5 std).
math2p14 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-19-03, 01:22 PM   #22
TimB
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Bikes:
Posts: 1,012
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by ngrover
like i said, the deus bb works with xtr cranks. i THINK the deus and diabolus bb's are interchangable so that would mean that the diabolus bb SHOULD work with XTR.
Yes it does in fact mean they are compatible

Quote:
shimano put a patent on their bottom bracket because they didn't want anyone to make compatible parts. RaceFace got around shimano's patent by having the non-drive arm fixed to the bb axle instead of the drive side like shimano did. so raceface has made the effort to make compatible parts, not shimano
by fixing the bb axle to the non-drive side crank arm, raceface acutally has an advantage over xtr. with xtr, because the bb axle is fixed to the drive side, if anything goes wrong with the drive arm or bb axle then the unit as a whole is much more expensive to replace than if the axle is fixed to the non-drive side. This is how raceface explained it to my local shop mechanics when they went to the bike show in Montreal. other than that, they are the same. the axles are the same diameter and length and so the bottom bracket cups with their outboard bearings are totally compatible with xtr.
Shimano did not patent their BB, they patented the layout of which external bearings forms part. The Race FAce layout is not superior not is the XTR superior to the Raceface. Once the system is fitted and tightened they should be equally stiff and strong. If anything goes wrong with the XTR crank on the drive side it's not significantlymore expensive to replace. Either way if I had such a significant failure inmy crankset I'd be asking Shimano for a warranty replacement!

I recieved a reply from Raceface wrt to their cranks. They've really wound up the marketing claim game almost to science fiction. They even claim 7000 series aluminium they use for their BB cups to be stronger than the 2014 aluminium used by Shimano which is complete nonsense. For the type of loading the external BB cups experience, the 2014 alloy is the better one.
They lso claim that the longer thread length makes their B cups sronger which is also complete rubbish because the Shimano cups are made from a stronger alloy so don't have to be as long, saving weight.

Of the two cranks neither is better than the other. They're jut similar solutions to the same problem
TimB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-20-03, 03:28 AM   #23
math2p14
Part of the furniture
Thread Starter
 
math2p14's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Exeter UK, Athens Greece.
Bikes: Specialized RH, Scott Unitrack
Posts: 930
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by TimB
Yes it does in fact mean they are compatible



Shimano did not patent their BB, they patented the layout of which external bearings forms part. The Race FAce layout is not superior not is the XTR superior to the Raceface. Once the system is fitted and tightened they should be equally stiff and strong. If anything goes wrong with the XTR crank on the drive side it's not significantlymore expensive to replace. Either way if I had such a significant failure inmy crankset I'd be asking Shimano for a warranty replacement!

I recieved a reply from Raceface wrt to their cranks. They've really wound up the marketing claim game almost to science fiction. They even claim 7000 series aluminium they use for their BB cups to be stronger than the 2014 aluminium used by Shimano which is complete nonsense. For the type of loading the external BB cups experience, the 2014 alloy is the better one.
They lso claim that the longer thread length makes their B cups sronger which is also complete rubbish because the Shimano cups are made from a stronger alloy so don't have to be as long, saving weight.

Of the two cranks neither is better than the other. They're jut similar solutions to the same problem
Did you contact the strange guys at silverfish Tim? If yes i would be very much interested to listed to your opinion.
math2p14 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-20-03, 05:48 PM   #24
TimB
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Bikes:
Posts: 1,012
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
silverfish??? who are they?
No i contacted the raceface factory itself.
TimB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-21-03, 12:46 AM   #25
math2p14
Part of the furniture
Thread Starter
 
math2p14's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Exeter UK, Athens Greece.
Bikes: Specialized RH, Scott Unitrack
Posts: 930
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by TimB
silverfish??? who are they?
No i contacted the raceface factory itself.
I thought you lived in the UK...
math2p14 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -6. The time now is 02:30 PM.