Davek

At first I was so excied to see manitou on my bike stock. I'd hweard so many good things about the company. But as I soon found out, the Manitou Axel is a piece of crap. I think I'd prefer a mechanical shock over air. Any suggestions?


[I'm riding a K2 ZED 4.0]

PeterG1185

just because people told your fork isnt much doesnt mean its a complete piece and that it is unrideable. People tend to exaggerate and you really should ride the thing and make your own judgement on it before you go out and buy a new fork

Wilson10

I would first give it a chance, but if you still decide you dont like the fork then I would look to the top and check out something from FOX.

Davek

I have rode it and for the most part it feels weak. Other people similiar feelings just reinforced my opinion

DMulyava

Davek,

As I have suggested yesterday to another fellow forum member here, I think you should ride this fork, kill it, and then, yes, get an awesome fork, such as a Marz MX COMP w/eta.

My fork is even worse than yours. It's a Judy TT. I feel like it's bottoming out (and like it's about to break!) on every drop > 1 feet. However, I keep riding it. If anything, I think this fork makes me act smoother ..

B1105

Yea, ride it a bit and wear it out, then buy a new fork. If your looking for something with about 80-100 mm of travel, look at the Blacks, MX Comps and Fox Floats/Vanillas.

bentrim

Actually the Manitou Axel isn't an air shock like, say, a Fox. The Axel uses springs and hydraulics (fork oil). Not to mention that there are many good spring forks out there, like the Marzocchi EXR (which is now replaced by the MX-Comp). The Axel is a bad example of "a suspension fork" regardless of type.

You are correct...It is crap. If you look at the various threads here, you will see there are many disgruntled owners of this fork. I don't think any of us are being abusive in the use of the fork. It is a faulty design with leaky seals, weak parts, and a compromised design. I've had mine serviced twice in a five month span.

So what's going to happen? Nothing until enough people stand up, complain to Answer Products, pursue their warranty claims (which will cost Answer money), demand they compensate disgruntled owners, and impact Answer where it hurts the most...in sales. In the mean time, people will keep getting soaked out of their hard-earned money.

I think it would be a classy move if Answer, at the very least, offered a free exchange program for digruntled Axel owners whereby they could get a straight exchange for a basic Black model.

Davek

I think I'll send a complaint letter friday.

I knew that it wasnt air, I just meant that for the new one I'd prefer not to get air. Actually, a friend of mine hasa fork with one leg using air, the other mechanical. What are the advantages of this?

Scooby Snax

Davek, where did you buy the bike? Have you tried the service at the store where you bought the bike?

Just thinking out loud...

Maelstrom 

Weight savings. Sometimes more control over travel or damping. It all depends on how the company designed the single air system with matching coil/oil.

Al.canoe

I've put 185 singletrack miles on my Axel Super in the last month and a half and it works great so far. Cushions both big and small bumps just like my Fox Float RL shock is doing. Performance wise, it's a good complement to the Fox. My speed has actually increased somewhat over my old bike, so the Axel must not be too much of a liability. It's definitely staying on the bike for my spring Moab trip. It'll do a heck of a lot better there than my old (4 years) Judy Hydracoil did last time there. The Judy wasn't bad, just didn't do too much about the smaller bumps. Very reliable and maintenance free though. I hope the Axel is as good in that regard.

By the way, if it feels weak and you're over 170 lbs, you need the stiffer spring as indicated in the owner's manual. Also, bottoming out once in a while is not necessarily a bad thing. If you read Ned Overend's suspension set-up guidelines in his book, having it bottom once in a while is a good set-up to utilize the whole travel range.

Al

Davek

nah, I weigh 125

KleinMp99

Yea um good luck with that. "Hi I havent really ridden this fork I have here (its a manitou axel) but I have heard that they are crappy. I have pushed on it a few times and it feels flimsy." And ummm......then what?? You going to ask them to send you a new fork or something?

bentrim

Oh, thank you so much for your typical surly reply as usual Klein. I'm sure it will help us a lot...not. What do you suggest then?

Less trolling and more constructive feedback would be much more appreciated.

Maelstrom 

Ok. I don't know much about the Axel. But is it not a low end xc fork. All of the complaints I hear about this fork I would expect from a fork of its design. I say suck it up, ride it into the ground because you did get what you payed for and then buy something more appropriate later. If it is anything in comparison to the Marz exr it will suck but thats the pricepoint (although I found the exr signifigantly batter than the Judy).

OR go to the lbs and ask about a swap with cash. That way you get rid of it quickly and get a better fork sooner.

Maelstrom 

Not that I think he worded that right but I think he is saying ride it some more before trying to take it back on warranty complaint. I don't know many lbs's that would take back something because some people on the inet say it blows. Ride it and break it if you want a warranty. Or hope you have a really cool lbs that will do the swap.

bentrim

I know KleinMp99 has his own style of writing but there's better ways to get a point across besides "talkin' smack"...I appreciate his knowledge, but he's rather too abrupt sometimes...

I can't speak for the problems DaveK has had, but I've had water leak in my fork and rust the springs, the preload and lockout failing, rebound stopped working...this was after only 5 months, and I only road singletrack trails on it. I babied this thing.

The fork oil "went dry" in only a few months (a leak? Bad seals?). I thought I was just unlucky and got a lemon but it seems others have had problems with their Axels here at Bike Forums, and many complaints at Epinions, and MTBReview; not about its performance, but because it is faulty.

My whole point is that you can't just "set on the fence" and accept faulty equipment regardless of whether it costs $200, or $2000. You have to voice your concerns. If no one complains then Answer just keeps producing crappy forks. Is that what we want?

Yeah, it's not exactly a $2000 fork but even $250 is a lot of money to someone like, Imprezaman, who's in school and who scrimped and saved his money to buy what he thought was going to be a decent ride.

And isn't the real point that it is reasonable to expect the fork to be reliable as long as it's being used within the scope it was designed for? But this thing has more holes in it than a Microsoft operating system. Just my opinion of course.

If these guys don't at least voice their dissatisfaction to Answer, then they deserve to get ripped off. I know they might not get a refund or a new fork but at least they might be able to get it repaired, sell it on EBAY, and get some money towards a better fork.

Al.canoe

Finally we have some specifics. bentrim's problem is likely a quality control problem. If true, then some Axel forks will be fine, and others, too many others, will cause problems. I've read all the Axel problems on the various WEB sites and they mostly fall into two categories: either they fail or the rider is too heavy for the standard spring, doesn't like the ride and didn't bother to get the stiffer spring. Some times the real heavy rider blows a seal that way.

My Fox air shock also has some dozen bad reviews. Apparently some fail and sometimes even the warranty rebuild fails. Not good considering it lists for $350. My lbs (I didn't buy the new bike there) says there are so many Fox air shocks out there, that a dozen posts about problems is meaningless.

Either way, I'm riding both the fork and the shock until they fail and then I'll worry about it. Both work very nicely so far. I'm keeping my fingers crossed, especially on the shock.

Al

DeafLamb

I got an axel fork on my new jamis exile. I'm just getting in to mountain biking so I'm not really experinced. I know from reading the manual that I need the stiffer spring, should I get this or just beat up the fork for a while and buy a new one with the stiffer springs pre-installed. How much does a decent suspension fork go for anyway?

DeafLamb

Al.canoe

I'd put in the heavier spring. I still haven't installed mine. However, I'm only bottoming out gently and not often on the local trails. You can often measure how much travel you're using by the top ring of sand/dust left on the shiny part after a ride. Measure up from the boot. If you hear it bottom, I'd definitely switch it. I sometimes see the max travel, but I tend to unweight over obstacles.

I know when I get too the steeper rough downhills in the spring when I bike in the mountains (N Georgia, N Carolina, W Tennessee) and Moab, I'll definitely need the stiffer spring. I'll probably install it in the next week or two just to see what difference it makes.

Highly recommend Ned Overend's book and the video too. Good instructional material. I've been biking about four years and it's really helped me.

I think the lbs charged me something like 14 or 15 dollars for the spring. Simple to install.

Depends what you call decent. I thought my old Judy was decent. You can get a nice Fox for up to $700+. I'm not that fussy. I can do more with better technique (and aerobic conditioning) than better gear than what I have.

Al

Mace

maybe it's because i'm a light rider...but both my sherman flick and manitou black have served me well.

bentrim

The Shermans are certainly a cut above the Axel. The Blacks are probably better too. Wanna trade? Didn't think so...

Actually, when the Axel is working properly, it's not a bad fork for the money.

I think the problem is that Manitou put on way to many features than a fork in this budget should have.

I figure they had to compromise certain things in order to squeeze in so many features in a $250 U.S. fork. Example: the Axel has plastic adjustment knobs, whereas the Shermans have machined steel knobs.

It would have been better, IMO, if they had made the Axel a simple fork by leaving off extraneous features -- like external preload adjustment -- and concentrate putting the manufacturing costs where it is more important.

I'm about 175, and have rarely if ever bottomed out my Axel which is why I am puzzled as to why I have had the number of problems I have had.

Regardless, if anyone else is having problems, you should call Bobby Acuna at Answer. You can reach him toll free at: 1-800-423-0273 ext 101, or bacuna@answerproducts.com

KleinMp99

Exactly.....just like the guy that came into the shop that returned a bike that his wife just bought "because it wasnt made in america".




Do you really think they are totally blind to what is happening? I really dont know.....but it dosent seem like they would be totally oblivious to the problems that are occuring with their axle forks. I would guess that they are fixing all the problems and making their axle forks better for 2004, but I have no idea since I havent really studied up on them.


Dave dosent exactly say when he bought the bike but it seems like a recent purchase......what he should do or should have done was exchange the fork out right away at the bike shop. The main reason that I was pissed is that the title of the thread is "I hate Manitou"....when he dosent even know if he likes them or not.

bentrim

I don't think they, Answer, are totally oblivious to the problem either.

My efforts to "rally the troops", if you will, is two-fold:

1. To encourage those with problematic Axels to pursue their warranty claims and get them properly fixed or replaced, rather than complacently riding around with a half broken fork with the intention of just buying a new fork sometime down the road. At least get it repaired so they can sell it and get some returns...Best case scenario is that I've heard in some instances where manufacturers have given replacements with something better.

2. To provide Answer with customer feedback. I'm sure they would benefit from it since mountain bike manufacturing is becoming very competitive and they would want to provide competitive products and do any type of damage control of bad word-of-mouth advertising. So hopefully, down the road Manitou will be releasing better and better forks.

So, while I didn't mean to jump all over you for your post, I just didn't want DaveK or others from being dissuaded from calling Answer regarding any concerns.

Finally, regarding the customer who returned an item to the shop where you work at because the item was "Made in Taiwan": Do you suppose they are a bit ignorant? From my investigations, many Taiwan manufacturing plants are ISO certified. NOTE: For those unaware of ISO, it is an international standards certification that requires stringent guidelines for quality assurance in manufacturing. My Stumpjumper frame is made in Taiwan and I have to say the welds, fit and finish are impeccable.

Besides, no matter where it is manufactured, you can't fix something on the assembly line that was already flawed on the drawing board.

Al.canoe

I recently bought an '03 Stumpjumper primarily because of the frame design and workmanship. I worry about wear on that rear linkage eventually generating a lot of slop. The Stumpjumper is top notch in that area. Some ten years to work out the bugs in the design doesn't hurt either.

Places like Mexico and Taiwan are losing jobs to China. Taiwan is high tech compared to China. Actually a lot (most?) of Japanese goods are now made in countries outside of Japan because of their labor costs and competition from Korea and China. So if you don't like Asian, you might not have much choice.

I definitely agree with the feedback thing. Manitou doesn't want problems anymore than the bike owner does as it eventually hurts the bottom line. I've had several phone and E-mail discussions with them concerning my defective rebound damping assembly and some misinformation about preload with the heavier spring in their owner's manual. The only "problem" is that they are out of stock so I've had to ride a lot with pretty much no rebound damping most of the time. Actually, I think it's to my advantage as the new ones will be '04's and hopefully it'll be a redesign.

I like the way these newer forks are modularized by function. Compression damping is one unit, rebound damping is another unit, preload is another unit, etc. Really simplififies repair.

I'm going to replace the unit myself for the education. Unlike my old Judy hydracoil, these new contraptions need periodic maintenance, so I figure I might as well get an early start in working on the thing. The judy was to be run to failure and then you rebuild it. I liked that, especially since it never failed in 3.5 years.

Al