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Old 09-26-04, 08:15 PM   #1
Dannihilator
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The advanced mtb thread.

Ok, this thread is dedicated towards the discussion of the advanced side of mountain biking. No beginners discussions allowed in this thread. This thread is for talking about the more tougher aspects of mountain biking.
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Old 09-26-04, 08:18 PM   #2
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So we can't ask which bike is better or if I can use a K-mart Mongoose on a real trail?
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Old 09-26-04, 08:37 PM   #3
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Seems like it would be a pretty boring thread.

Advanced mountain biking, you go, you ride, no problems. You are in shape, you have technical skills, and your equipment works because you know what works best for you without having to ask for anyone else's input.

I'll stick to the all skill levels threads.
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Old 09-26-04, 08:47 PM   #4
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What is meant is by more of an advanced conversation as in no which bike should I buy threads and more talk about the technical aspects behind the technology.
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Old 09-26-04, 08:57 PM   #5
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I think that it would also be a good place to discuss epic rides and what not. I think that in this sub-forum the whole idea of mountain biking isn't interpreted the way it is supposed to be. I think that a lot of people who post here have not(and many have, don't get me wrong) participated in "real" mountain biking, on real mountain bike trails.
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Old 09-26-04, 09:02 PM   #6
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Ok first question.

I'm looking for a new DH race bike (old one was stolen) what I want to know is the advantages and disadvantages behind, Horst, Lawill, Singlepivot, parallelogram linkage (like stinkys) and VPP. I don't weant to hear stories about bikes you have ridden, I just want to know the pros and cons behind the designs of these linkages.

Cheers, hope this is in the right thread, if not delete it and I'll post a new thread.
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Old 09-26-04, 09:21 PM   #7
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Wow...thats some advanced discussion...yummy..might have to get my brain moving for this.

Horst - in theory is supposed to keep the rear wheel moving vertically in a straight line. By doing this you eliminate brake jack and/or brake squat. In reality the wheel still moves in an arc and does one of the better jobs of REDUCING brake jacks/squat. Also helps reduce pedal bob.

Single pivot. All the characteristics mentioned above occur in single pivots. Depending on where the pivots are located. Depending on location you can eliminate one problem but the other is increasd. Floating disc breaks and SPV valved shocks have revitalized single pivots almost completely eliminating the said problems while still offering some of the simplicity of a single pivot.

Lawill...no clue

Faux Bar (stinks) - react like single pivots. Without the horst link to create the vertical movement they still have some of the same problems. Now you see them coming out with spv shocks (pro pedal) and floating brakes (this years stab) which eliminate those problems.

VPP - A complex series of linkages to do, again, what the horst trys to do, and again semi-succeeds. Downfall is cost and complexity (more linkages more things to break) Again, I haven't been tracking vpp in detail at all as I like fsr and personally don't feel the need for anything more complex and expensive. But thats me. http://www.ridemonkey.com/forums/sho...&highlight=vpp good discussion on vpp by some actual engineers


http://www.mtbcomprador.com/pa/english/
http://www.specialized.com/sbc4Bar.j...site=10080&a=b (good visual comparison but biased towards the horst link for obvious reasons)
http://www.titusti.com/suspension.html

In short...there is still no perfect system and still nothing works for everyone. In fact...it will never happen
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Old 09-26-04, 09:24 PM   #8
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Lawills are notorious for bad shifting and tons of brake jacking.
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Old 09-26-04, 09:26 PM   #9
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Thanks a lot, what's DW link, is that like the linkage on the demo 9
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Old 09-26-04, 09:30 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hopper
Thanks a lot, what's DW link, is that like the linkage on the demo 9
No the demo is simply a slightly modified shcok placement of the fsr. Nothing new or exciting there. IT allow for the same compact feel, the fsr suspension with a 26" wheel. Do not mix up the demo with something like a vpp.

DW is an engineer on ridemonkey designing rear ends for ironhorse...damn near a genious and definately a smart person to read posts off of. Anything I know is indirectly related to his posting on ridemonkey. And I only understand 60% of what he posts....
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Old 09-26-04, 09:36 PM   #11
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http://www.dw-link.com/technology.html

Thats the DW-link. I am taking it out of the vpp explanation simply because he would get pretty pissed that I lumped him in with vpp. It is the DW....nothing more..nothing less haha
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Old 09-26-04, 10:13 PM   #12
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Quick question...

Is there a significant amount of difference between 2 pot or 4 pot or 6 pot? Do you see less fade in power? Is there a different feel to it?
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Old 09-26-04, 10:17 PM   #13
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The way I feel about suspension, the stable platform shocks, in my eyes, are somewhat of a band-aid for underveloped/poor platform designs. I like the Horst the most out of all of them since even with out a SPV setup, its not as prone to jack and bob. So many bikes though, if you take away the SPV, you are left with a Walmart Mongoose pogostick bike. All IMHO of course.
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Old 09-26-04, 10:21 PM   #14
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You opinion and mine. Single pivot with floating brake and an avalanche for example would feel great...but still be a crappy design overcharging for a simple design with extras.

Mind,

Think about it this way. More pads more power more control. Overall the 4 pot is signifigant over the 2...and the 6 is pretty much a tossup. Some people say they love them and they make a big difference and some don't. In theory it should be signifigant.
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Old 09-26-04, 11:14 PM   #15
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i'm a little late for this, but here's a good site that analyses the physics of common suspension designs:

http://www.math.chalmers.se/~olahe/Bike/
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Old 09-26-04, 11:39 PM   #16
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speaking of rear suspension designs, have you guys seen the sketches of the new design being developed by yeti? mael, you've probably read the posts on rm.

Last edited by rasheed; 09-26-04 at 11:45 PM.
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Old 09-27-04, 12:01 AM   #17
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Don't want to touch the yeti...thats freaking nuts. I am a simplistic multi gear rider. Anything beyond FSR and I consider it overkill for me. But I don't race which is where the vpp and other features seem to matter most.
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Old 09-27-04, 12:01 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Funkychicken
i'm a little late for this, but here's a good site that analyses the physics of common suspension designs:

http://www.math.chalmers.se/~olahe/Bike/
Thanks forgot about that one. SLightly outdated but a good starting point.
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Old 09-27-04, 12:24 AM   #19
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Can someone explain exactly what SPV does and how it works? Thanks
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Old 09-27-04, 12:38 AM   #20
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It is a type of damping within a shock that (in various ways) reads the bumps you are coming up to. In their most complex forms it understands the difference between pushing on the fork (fake lockout) and bumps pushing upwards. In lesser forms it is controlled compression damping that doesnt respond well to small bumps. Thats why many people complain of poor small bump sensitivity with SPV valving. Essentially a smart compression damping system.

In short SPV is a more advanced and sensitive compression damping system. Personally the 05 SPV evolve system from manitou seemed to have found a sweet spot between small bump sensitivity and pedal bob.

There is a good explanation of manitous version of it

http://www.bikemag.com/gear/spv/

Propedal and various other spv valving works in similar ways. Eliminate pedal bob while maintaining an active suspension.

Again no system is perfect for everyone riding. I don't like specialized version of it...felt like ass. Manitous (non specialized shock) felt good...so far I haven't felt a rear shock SPV valved that I liked. Fork on the other hand...slider + with spv evolve compression. That said...2002 z1 fr has the same feeling without the fancy term, just a very high end compression system (imo).
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Old 09-27-04, 02:39 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rasheed
speaking of rear suspension designs, have you guys seen the sketches of the new design being developed by yeti? mael, you've probably read the posts on rm.
I think I understand it, and it looks sick, I want one.
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Old 09-27-04, 02:27 PM   #22
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No one even mentioned the GT I-drive and their overengineered eccentric bottom bracket. Looks cool, but has had some reliability issues.

I have NOT kept up with the new Yeti design, time to check out RM tonight!

L8R
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Old 09-27-04, 02:31 PM   #23
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The GT was always a little heavy on the bob for my tastes... design wise, its kind of a complex Trek Y11 style setup, with an eno BB for added complexity and reliability issues.
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Old 09-27-04, 03:20 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by a2psyklnut
No one even mentioned the GT I-drive and their overengineered eccentric bottom bracket. Looks cool, but has had some reliability issues.

I have NOT kept up with the new Yeti design, time to check out RM tonight!

L8R
Weird...easy to understand but I see lot of room for breakage.

Didn't mention GT cause...well...I didn't like it haha...also I came into mountain biking shortly after gt got bought. And the idrive isn't exactly popular anymore
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Old 09-27-04, 05:07 PM   #25
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Since this is the "Advanced Mountain Bike" thread, I just wanted to say, I got my pant leg caught in my chainrings and it made me cry like a lil school girl cause I ripped my plaid-polyester's.

Off topic though, do you think the iDrive would be more effective on a setup like the Santacruz VP Free has(what the hells that called?)? Being that the BB moves eccentrically on the iDrive, would the two designs just counteract againist each other, or do you think you could have a stable platform type "feel"? (while pedaling) Being both designs kinda try to get rid of good'ole Mr. Peddal Bob, together maybe there can be peace. Or maybe I'm crazier then a 3$ bill..?
Any takers?
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