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Old 10-31-04, 10:39 PM   #1
Dannihilator
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Post answers in this thread. Your scores will be sent to you via private message. This test will be in 3 sections. Part one is multiple choice, part two is true false, part 3 is essay. The multiple choice and true and false makes up for 50% of the quiz, the essay part makes up for the other 50%. The multiple choice and true and false are 3 points per question. The essay is a min of 3 paragraphs and a max of 5 paragraphs. Any AOL'ese used and you will instantly fail the quiz. The quiz will end the weekend of thanksgiving(USA's). Good luck to those who take it. Also all chit chat posts will be deleted.

Part one Multiple Choice
1)What material is the most popular frame material for mtb frames.
a)Aluminum
b)Tin
c)Carbon Fiber
d)Titanium
e)Steel
f)A and E

2)What company invented the short stays for their freeride hardtail frames.
a)Specialized
b)Giant
c)Trek
d)Kona

3)Which one of these freeride frames are most likely to do best at a xc ride?
a)Kona Stinky
b)Karpiel Apocalypse
c)Rocky Mountain RMX
d)Kona Cowan

4)Department stores bike frames are made of:
a)4130 Chromoly
b)7075 Aluminum
c)6061 Aluminum
d)High Tensile Steel.

5)What companies use the VPP technology:
a)Giant/Specialized
b)Trek/Gary Fischer
c)Santa Cruz/ Intense
d)Haro/Cannondale

6)What mounts on the outside of the seat tube of a xc frame.
a)Chainguide
b)Deraillier
c)Water bottle
d)b and c

7)What amount of travel are xc bike frame designed for forkwise.
a)12"
b)8"
c)6"
d)5"
e)4"
f)3"
g)Trick question
h)e and f

8)What is the front part of a frame called.
a)Front part of the frame
b)That place where I reach over.
c)That happy magical place
d)The front triangle
e)Trick question

9)Box stays provide
a)More frame strength
b)Less tire clearance
c)A cooler look
d)A weaker frame.

10)Todays frames are designed for what kind of headset.
a)Threadless
b)Threaded
c)Integrated
d)No headset

Part 2 true or false.

1)All frames are measured exactly the same.

2)All depot store bike frames are built in the same quality when compared to a frame in which a 2 year old built out of duplo blocks.

3)Any frame can handle a fork with 12"(300mm) of travel.

4)All frames are designed for 26" wheels.

5)Plato was Mickey Mouses dog.

6)All seat tube sizes are the same.

7)All bikes are made overseas.

8)Gussets don't add any strength.

9)There is only one headtube size.

10)Blue frames are faster.

Part 3 Essay(Remember, no AOL'ese.)

Explain The differences in how frames are measured from xc to DH/Freeride. Why doesn't the measurements resemble that of a road bike? Would it be a good idea to standardize these measurements, explain.
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Old 11-01-04, 01:31 AM   #2
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1 a)
2 d)
3 d) or a) depending on specific application
4 d)
5 c)
6....depends usually a water bottle but sometimes a funky bashgaurd thing specialized made to protect the downtube
7 - g and h...normally H but really depends on the type of xc being done race or trails
8 - d
9 - a
10 - a (soemtimes d but that company is still dumb)

part 2
1 - I wish
2 - I don't know what a duplo block is...but if its like leggo it is close
3 - nope
4 - ...depends what you consider a mtb...I do believe there is one or two euor frames only made for 24" (even the fork)
6 - yes he was...also something much more...
7 - nope...
8 - they do and transfer it elsewhere usually
9 - 3 really...actually 4 if you include 1 1/4
10 - for sure..although rootbeer I hear is close behind

Part 3
I have explained this before...except the last part
Standardizing measurments is a mistake because every rider likes soemthing different.Some freeriders liek a slack HA like a dhiller and some like it steep. It varries from rider to rider and bike to bike. To standardize it will take away from that personalization. Now..I do believe each company should figure out a way to make their bikes adjustable, like the bighit, to offer options. That, imo, would be the best standard
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Old 11-01-04, 02:09 AM   #3
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Part one Multiple Choice
1)What material is the most popular frame material for mtb frames.

f)A and E

2)What company invented the short stays for their freeride hardtail frames.

d)Kona

3)Which one of these freeride frames are most likely to do best at a xc ride?
a)Kona Stinky

4)Department stores bike frames are made of:

d)High Tensile Steel.

5)What companies use the VPP technology:

c)Santa Cruz/ Intense

6)What mounts on the outside of the seat tube of a xc frame.

d)b and c

7)What amount of travel are xc bike frame designed for forkwise.


h)e and f

8)What is the front part of a frame called.

d)The front triangle


9)Box stays provide
a)More frame strength



10)Todays frames are designed for what kind of headset.
a)Threadless
and /or
c)Integrated


Part 2 true or false.

1)All frames are measured exactly the same. FALSE

2)All depot store bike frames are built in the same quality when compared to a frame in which a 2 year old built out of duplo blocks. FALSE Duplo blocks are STRONGER than Dept store bikes

3)Any frame can handle a fork with 12"(300mm) of travel. FALSE

4)All frames are designed for 26" wheels. FALSE

5)Plato was Mickey Mouses dog. FALSE

6)All seat tube sizes are the same. FALSE

7)All bikes are made overseas. FALSE

8)Gussets don't add any strength. FALSE

9)There is only one headtube size. FALSE

10)Blue frames are faster. FALSE Depends on the rider

Part 3 Essay(Remember, no AOL'ese.)

Explain The differences in how frames are measured from xc to DH/Freeride. Why doesn't the measurements resemble that of a road bike? Would it be a good idea to standardize these measurements, explain. There are different geometrries involved DH/ Freeride bikes have slacker a geometry that would make them a poor choice for riding XC. Road bikes are designed to put the rider into a more aero position that wouldn't work for technical XC - part of the reason Cyclocross bikes are usually two sizes smaller than the appropriate road size.
Standardization would remove the "feel" quotient from the equation Different brands feel different and that's why people like them.
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Old 11-01-04, 03:19 AM   #4
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Part I

1) a
2) d
3) c
4) c
5) c
6) c
7) c
8) d
9) c
10) a

Part II

1) F
2) F
3) T
4) F
5) T
6) T
7) F
8) T
9) F
10) F

Part III

It varies due to the differences in rider's size and sitting posture at a given terrain. In regards to part b, I would say No. As compared to a roadie where the assumption is that the rider is cruising, XC riding is on uneven terrain and thus the bike must be measured to fit the rider to perfectly perform on these terrains.
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Old 11-01-04, 06:08 AM   #5
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Part one Multiple Choice

1)What material is the most popular frame material for mtb frames.
a)Aluminum

2)What company invented the short stays for their freeride hardtail frames.
d)Kona

3)Which one of these freeride frames are most likely to do best at a xc ride?
a)Kona Stinky

4)Department stores bike frames are made of:
d)High Tensile Steel.

5)What companies use the VPP technology:
c)Santa Cruz/ Intense

6)What mounts on the outside of the seat tube of a xc frame.
d)b and c

7)What amount of travel are xc bike frame designed for forkwise.
h)e and f

8)What is the front part of a frame called.
d)The front triangle

9)Box stays provide
a)More frame strength

10)Todays frames are designed for what kind of headset.
a)Threadless


Part 2 true or false.
1)All frames are measured exactly the same.
false

2)All depot store bike frames are built in the same quality when compared to a frame in which a 2 year old built out of duplo blocks.
false

3)Any frame can handle a fork with 12"(300mm) of travel.
false

4)All frames are designed for 26" wheels.
false

5)Plato was Mickey Mouses dog.
false

6)All seat tube sizes are the same.
false

7)All bikes are made overseas.
false

8)Gussets don't add any strength.
false

9)There is only one headtube size.
false

10)Blue frames are faster.
false




Part 3 Essay(Remember, no AOL'ese.)
Quote:
Explain The differences in how frames are measured from xc to DH/Freeride. Why doesn't the measurements resemble that of a road bike? Would it be a good idea to standardize these measurements, explain.
reading through some of the previous answered, i guess i just understood the question differently than everyone else... cause i assumed you meant the way things were measured, i.e., centre-top, centre-centre & short, long, large, medium, small, imperial vs. metric, etc.

did you mean this, or did you mean the different geometries involved, i.e., slack/steep headangles, long/short stays, long/short toptubes, low/high bottom bracket height, etc.?

having said that, here's my answer based on my assuption of what you intended by your question:
most dh/freeride bikes don't have a "real" toptube, so they usually have a theoretical toptube measurement in their geometry specs, whereas with most xc bikes, their geometries are a bit more "traditional". you also have a lack of a real standard that's agreed upon by all manufacturers which is why you might find that one company's small frame size isn't the same as another company's small frame size or why you might find that one company's 15" frame is a bit bigger or smaller than another company's 15" frame.

as for the question about resembling the measurements of road bikes, i don't really have a clue as to the real reason one uses metric and the other uses imperial, but i'd guess (and i could be way off on this one) that it has to do something with the fact that road cycling is perceived as being more of an "international" thing compared to mountain biking which is kind of an "american" thing.

regarding the question about standardizing measurements, if i assumed correct in terms of what you meant by the question, then yeah, i'd think it'd be a good idea to standardize the way in which bikes are measured. it would make things a lot easier in terms of finding a right size that fits depending on the application of the bike.
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Old 11-01-04, 03:45 PM   #6
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Part I

1.A
2.D
3.D
4.D
5.C
6.D
7.H
8.D/Trick. It's either front triangle or headtube. Depends on how you define front.
9.A
10.A

Part II

1.False
2.False, Personally i've made a lego bike and its much, much less strong.
3.False
4.False
5.You bet you ass he is. True
6.False
7.False
8.False
9.False
10.False

That looks wrong...

Part III

Well the difference I know most about would deffinatly be Head Angles. On DH/Freeride bikes you want a slack headtube. Anywhere from 65-69 degrees is ideal. Some downhillers like really slack angles because it gets you in a more upright position when going downhill. Same with freeriders. XC frames are designed to put you more upright and closer to the front of the bike. It's better for climbing.

Road bikes are designed to make you hunch over the bars and pedal like crazy. (YEAH LANCE!)

It would be bad to standardize angles and bike geometry. Every ride has his own style and a road bike style frame would ride poorly on DH/Freeriding terrain. NO STANDARDIZING!

I are t** winn*r! (The * are edit marks. They replace AOL'ese type language.)
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Old 11-02-04, 12:35 AM   #7
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Part one Multiple Choice
1)What material is the most popular frame material for mtb frames.
f)A and E

2)What company invented the short stays for their freeride hardtail frames.
d)Kona

3)Which one of these freeride frames are most likely to do best at a xc ride?
d)Kona Cowan

4)Department stores bike frames are made of:
d)High Tensile Steel.

5)What companies use the VPP technology:
c)Santa Cruz/ Intense


6)What mounts on the outside of the seat tube of a xc frame.
c)Water bottle

7)What amount of travel are xc bike frame designed for forkwise.
h)e and f

8)What is the front part of a frame called.
d)The front triangle or are you talking about the headtube?

9)Box stays provide
a)More frame strength

10)Todays frames are designed for what kind of headset.
a)Threadless but very occasionally some companies will have an integrated headset.

Part 2 true or false.

1)All frames are measured exactly the same.
False, unfortunately

2)All depot store bike frames are built in the same quality when compared to a frame in which a 2 year old built out of duplo blocks.
False

3)Any frame can handle a fork with 12"(300mm) of travel.
False

4)All frames are designed for 26" wheels.
False

5)Plato was Mickey Mouses dog.
False, his name was PLUTO

6)All seat tube sizes are the same.
False, I had a hell of a time fining one for my old bike

7)All bikes are made overseas.
False

8)Gussets don't add any strength.
False

9)There is only one headtube size.
False

10)Blue frames are faster.
True *Bike Porn* Look what I brought home from the LBS
My bike is proof. Also contrary to what others think, Hyundai and Pizza Hut logos make it even faster

Part 3 Essay(Remember, no AOL'ese.)

Explain The differences in how frames are measured from xc to DH/Freeride. Why doesn't the measurements resemble that of a road bike? Would it be a good idea to standardize these measurements, explain.

XC bikes are designed to be pedaled more than a DH or FR bike, for this reason they have a high seatpost to allow for an almost fully extended leg during the pedal stroke. This allows for more efficient pedaling and just feels better. they also have a steeper headanle than that of DH/FR bikesas to allow for different handling characteristics. Another thing is that XC bikes are designed to have a low travel fork and often don't have rear suspension, this is to allow for more efficent pedaling.

DH and FR bikes have slackker headangles than those of XC bikes, this is to allow the rider to feel more upright while going down a steep slope. Again however a DH bike will have a slacker angle as freeride bikes are designed to be able to be ridden up to the top of some trails. Almost every proper DH bike has rear suspension to allow better bump absorbsion and this travel is usually around the 7-10 inches mark and have a fork going around the 7-10 inches, there are however lots of different companies that think that their geometries are better. Some think a longer wheel base are better as you are more stable at speed buyt others use shorter wheel bases to make th bike more manuvarable on tight technical courses. The same goes with the length of the chainstay, a long chaistay makes the bike feel better at speeds but the shorter ones are more manuvarrable and gives the bike a more layed back feeling.. However there are a couple of different FR bikes, DJ, Extreme FR or a form like more aggresive XC. A DJ bike will be a hardtail and have a fork around 3-5 inches and still have a slackish headanglel. Usually they have a short chainstay to allow the bike to be thrown around. An Extreme FR bike will have rear travel from anywhere between 6-15 inches and some can even handle a 12inch fork. they will have a similare geometry to that of a DH bike. Now the other class of FR can have no supension or around 4-6 inches of travel. They can accept around 3-6 inch fork and will have a similar geometry to that of an XC bike.

Standardizing all this would be a really stupid idea. This is because all the above mentioned bikes a re designed for totally different things. If you had an XC hardtail and were doing DH you would almost fall over the front of your biuke straight away, but if you used a DH bike on an XC track it would almost be impossible to pedal uphill.
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Old 11-02-04, 12:43 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KonaRider24

Part one Multiple Choice
1)What material is the most popular frame material for mtb frames.
a)Aluminum
b)Tin
c)Carbon Fiber
d)Titanium
e)Steel
f)A and E
Trick question: Currently most popular is Aluminum. 15 years ago, the most popular was Steel. Steel is making a comeback, but it doesn't share the popularity it once did. I would say Titanium, Carbon and Steel are all about the same, with Aluminum being the most popular.

So, my answer is a) Aluminum

Quote:
Originally Posted by KonaRider24
2)What company invented the short stays for their freeride hardtail frames.
a)Specialized
b)Giant
c)Trek
d)Kona
Another trick question. No one company "invented" short stays. It's all a matter of preferred frame geometry. You don't "invent" geometry, you just "utilize" a certain geometry. With that, I'm going to say: d) Kona. Mostly because the other companies don't really have FR hardtails, more DJ hardtails.
Quote:
Originally Posted by KonaRider24
3)Which one of these freeride frames are most likely to do best at a xc ride?
a)Kona Stinky
b)Karpiel Apocalypse
c)Rocky Mountain RMX
d)Kona Cowan
Another trick question: XC rides in the North Shore are different to XC rides in SoCal or here in FL. I'd much rather ride a Stinky on some XC rides in the NS, but would definitely stick to a hardtail for stuff around here. So, I vote: d) Kona Cowan

Quote:
Originally Posted by KonaRider24
4)Department stores bike frames are made of:
a)4130 Chromoly
b)7075 Aluminum
c)6061 Aluminum
d)High Tensile Steel.
Yet another trick question. Most are Hi-Tensile Steel, however, some of the new ones are 6061 aluminum or 4130 Chromo. However, predominately they are Steel, so my answer is: d) High Tensile Steel

Quote:
Originally Posted by KonaRider24
5)What companies use the VPP technology:
a)Giant/Specialized
b)Trek/Gary Fischer
c)Santa Cruz/ Intense
d)Haro/Cannondale
My vote is c) Santa Cruz/Intense, but they didn't invent it, they just purchased the Patent rights from a company that is no longer call OUTLAND. A company way ahead of it's time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KonaRider24
6)What mounts on the outside of the seat tube of a xc frame.
a)Chainguide
b)Deraillier
c)Water bottle
d)b and c
What's with all the trick questions? I'm going to vote d) b and c, even though "deraillier" is spelled incorrectly and should be "derailleur".

Quote:
Originally Posted by KonaRider24
7)What amount of travel are xc bike frame designed for forkwise.
a)12"
b)8"
c)6"
d)5"
e)4"
f)3"
g)Trick question
h)e and f
My vote of course will be g)trick question. A XC bike is too broad a spectrum. Recreational XC frames are designed for more intended travel. Whereas a thoroughbred race bike is designed for limited travel. Heck, some companies are sticking 5" travel forks on their XC bikes. (Jamis comes to mind) Also, you didn't ask about which decade. 20 years ago suspension was a new untried technology, so 2" was a lot.


Quote:
Originally Posted by KonaRider24
8)What is the front part of a frame called.
a)Front part of the frame
b)That place where I reach over.
c)That happy magical place
d)The front triangle
e)Trick question
Yet another trick question, so e) trick question is my final answer. Reason the front "most" part of the frame is usually the headtube or even the head badge.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KonaRider24
9)Box stays provide
a)More frame strength
b)Less tire clearance
c)A cooler look
d)A weaker frame.
My answer is e) both a and c.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KonaRider24
10)Todays frames are designed for what kind of headset.
a)Threadless
b)Threaded
c)Integrated
d)No headset
Another trick question: Some companies are now designing for an integrated headset (which to me makes NO sense on a mountain bike. Yet, if you stick with a traditional headtube, the choice between threadless or threaded has little to do with the headtube. it depends on which type headset is pressed into the frame.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KonaRider24
Part 2 true or false.

1)All frames are measured exactly the same.
False, don't get me started on the differences.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KonaRider24
2)All depot store bike frames are built in the same quality when compared to a frame in which a 2 year old built out of duplo blocks.
I would say the duplo blocks frame is of better quality, so TRUE!

Quote:
Originally Posted by KonaRider24
3)Any frame can handle a fork with 12"(300mm) of travel.
TRUE, any frame can handle a fork with 12" of travel, until you ride it! So, FALSE.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KonaRider24
4)All frames are designed for 26" wheels.
FALSE, too many to list, BIG HIT's, 29ers...etc.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KonaRider24
5)Plato was Mickey Mouses dog.
FALSE, wasn't that SPOT?

Quote:
Originally Posted by KonaRider24
6)All seat tube sizes are the same.
TRUE, that's why they only come in about 25 different diameters and three different lengths.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KonaRider24
7)All bikes are made overseas.
FALSE, Cannondale, Intense, Rocky Mtns.....etc.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KonaRider24
8)Gussets don't add any strength.
FALSE, I'm getting too tired to come up with anything else to say.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KonaRider24
9)There is only one headtube size.
FALSE, 1", 1-1/8", 1-1/4" 1.5" Then each manufacturer has different lengths depending on their individual geometries.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KonaRider24
10)Blue frames are faster.
FALSE, everyone knows RED frames are faster.
Quote:
Originally Posted by KonaRider24
Part 3 Essay(Remember, no AOL'ese.)

Explain The differences in how frames are measured from xc to DH/Freeride. Why doesn't the measurements resemble that of a road bike? Would it be a good idea to standardize these measurements, explain.

Each type of bike is designed specifically for a range of intended use. The beauty of cycling is the diversity and the differences enjoyed by different riders. Each person has their preference as to what is their favorite aspect of the sport of cycling. To standardize these measurements, you would have to standardize all riding styles. This would castrate the individuality of each of us and would create of world of mindless zombies.

Mountain biking has many subsets of riding styles. Originally the sport evolved from cyclist who wanted to take their bikes off the pavement. Tires got wider for better traction and the rider position shifted to a more prone one. Most bikes were minor variations of the same design. Currently, you have cross-country (XC) in both a recreational format and a highly competitive format. The bikes are lighter, steer quicker and climb with aplomb. Downhill Racing evolved as the early riders did what many of us enjoy, going fast without having to pedal. The trick was to be the fastest. As this sport evolved, and suspension technology developed, the bikes now resemble motorless motorcycles. Geometries are very laid back to provide stability at high speeds and in a downward slope. Rider position is toward the back of the bike at times toward the extreme back of the bike. This is due to the high rate of speed and the terrain encountered. The genre of Freeriding has created bikes with shorter chain stays, yet with longer travel to absorb the landings from drops and jumps usually performed at slower speeds than downhill racing. The geometries put the rider in a more upright neutral postion, yet the rider is able to shift his weight to the back when necessary. Four Cross racing is a new aspect of racing that grew out of slalom racing. These bikes are designed to turn fast, handle some jumps and pedal like crazy. The rider postion is neutral and back as most courses are downhill. Dirt Jumping evolved more from BMX then DH or FR, but still consists of smaller more compact frame geometries for strength. Rider position is neutral and back for proper control when airborne. Longer top tubes for more control and usually shorter chain stays. From there you can discuss trials, and concrete cruisers.

A mountain bike frame geometry is completely different than that of a road bike because the two riding styles are at opposite ends of the cycling spectrum. Road bikes are intended to be ridden on hard surfaces, and usually are ridden for long periods of time in straight (or generally straight) directions. Rider postions are very forward on the bike and low to minimize air resistance. Bikes are very light and efficient. Road riders consider a 30 mile ride, "a short training ride". 30 miles on a mountain bike is "EPIC". A road rider, might not turn more than 3 times in an hour, whereas a mountain biker may not turn less than 3 times in a couple of seconds. When was the last time you saw a roadie jumping a curb? Because of this dicotomy, the two frames are completely different than one another. Again, the roadie has a forward tucked postion for riding fast for long hours. A mountain biker is more upright and ready to turn fast, stand to sprint, sit down to hammer, stand up again to descend. He's all over the bike.

Standardization if both our savior and our nemisis. For geometries, it's a nemisis extrordinaire. Standardizing geometries would require that each of us were also standard. No two humans will have the same exact body dimensions. For that, we would need to be genetically enhanced through DNA manipulation. All our inseams, torsoes and arm lengths would all be the same. BORING!

Too tired to continue! Good Night!
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Old 11-02-04, 12:16 PM   #9
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1)a
2)d
3)d
4)a
5)c
6)d
7)e
8)e
9)a
10)a

part 2
1)f
2)f
3)f
4)t
5)f
6)t-dont understand, diameter or length?
7)f
8)f
9)t
10)f


as for part three, i dont really know alot about bikes yet, so ima just read someone elses.....hehe
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Old 11-13-04, 12:31 PM   #10
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1)What material is the most popular frame material for mtb frames.

f)A and E

2)What company invented the short stays for their freeride hardtail frames.

d)Kona

3)Which one of these freeride frames are most likely to do best at a xc ride?
a)Kona Stinky


4)Department stores bike frames are made of:
d)High Tensile Steel.

5)What companies use the VPP technology:
c)Santa Cruz/ Intense


6)What mounts on the outside of the seat tube of a xc frame.
d)b and c

7)What amount of travel are xc bike frame designed for forkwise.
h)e and f

8)What is the front part of a frame called.
d)The front triangle


9)Box stays provide
a)More frame strength

10)Todays frames are designed for what kind of headset.
a)Threadless


Part 2 true or false.

1)All frames are measured exactly the same. No, some are measured in centimetres,

2)All depot store bike frames are built in the same quality when compared to a frame in which a 2 year old built out of duplo blocks. Trick question, Duplo is not recommended for those under 3!!

3)Any frame can handle a fork with 12"(300mm) of travel. Yep, but your handling may be a tad slow.

4)All frames are designed for 26" wheels. Ha!

5)Plato was Mickey Mouseís dog.

6)All seat tube sizes are the same. Outside or inside?

7)All bikes are made overseas. Nope Over land.

8)Gussets don't add any strength. Training adds strength, gussets are for people who lack finness!! (Im Holding up my hand here!!)

9)There is only one headtube size. Again, inside or outside?

10)Blue frames are faster. Looking at my bikes. Yes

Part 3 Essay(Remember, no AOL'ese.)

Explain The differences in how frames are measured from xc to DH/Freeride. Why doesn't the measurements resemble that of a road bike? Would it be a good idea to standardise these measurements, explain.
Its harder to measure a bike on a down hill, so I opt for cross country, free ride bikes are dangerous to measure, unless the rider can trackstand on a skinny, while someone measures the bike, I think it would be beneficial to have an assistant jot down the measurements. Hey, wait a minute, if you measure a bike with a rider, donít you have to compensate for suspension sag? Now thatís the real question isnít it?
 
Old 11-20-04, 01:05 PM   #11
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