Cycling and bicycle discussion forums. 
   Click here to join our community Log in to access your Control Panel  


Go Back   > >

Mountain Biking Mountain biking is one of the fastest growing sports in the world. Check out this forum to discuss the latest tips, tricks, gear and equipment in the world of mountain biking.

User Tag List

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 11-27-04, 01:06 PM   #1
Maelstrom 
Wood Licker
Thread Starter
 
Maelstrom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Whistler,BC
Bikes: Transition Dirtbag, Kona Roast 2002 and specialized BMX
Posts: 16,885
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Holy Smokes - almost semi but not quite good news from shimano

Ok long title. But as most know (and agree) rapid rise and flippy shifter suck in general for freeriding and dh (especially on anything shore like) Shimano has come up with a solution. They offer saint with generic standalone brake lever bodies and generic non labelled RR (damn them) shifters. Like I said, this is almost kinda but not quite good news.

http://www.nsmb.com/gear/shimanocamp_11_04.php

The article is there. From the perspective of both a shore rider and xc guy.
Maelstrom is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-27-04, 01:12 PM   #2
Maelstrom 
Wood Licker
Thread Starter
 
Maelstrom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Whistler,BC
Bikes: Transition Dirtbag, Kona Roast 2002 and specialized BMX
Posts: 16,885
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
For the lazy, here is the paragraph I am focussing on

Quote:
Dual Control and Freeride
Another obvious difference is the level of technical difficulty on the trails on the Shore and in B.C. in general. The easiest trail on Fromme is vastly more difficult in every way than anything found at Fantasy Island. In fact you could probably ride brakeless if you were careful there but on the Shore losing either brake means the end of your ride. Which leads me to my next point; Dual Control and Freeride is not a match made in heaven. I had a good look at the bikes at Rampage and not a single rider - Shimano sponsored or not - was using Dual Control. When the speeds are high, the trails steep, the drops big or the logs skinny your brakes are everything. In those situations it makes absolutely no sense to have your brake levers doing double duty. You want them solidly mounted and moving along only one plane. When riding anything steep I find my fingers slipping off dual control and my fingers shift the levers after even a small drop. To their credit Shimano has added stand alone brake levers for Saint this year and they are also offering generic Rapid Fire shifters in either black or silver to match any of their groups.
Maelstrom is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-27-04, 03:55 PM   #3
math2p14
Part of the furniture
 
math2p14's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Exeter UK, Athens Greece.
Bikes: Specialized RH, Scott Unitrack
Posts: 930
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Well at the current point in time, i dont need shimano. My XT (02) runs ok, my XT brakes are a marvel (outdo MonoM4 etc...), but if i need something to change if broken...then SRAM/Hayes for me (or hope if they prove reliable).

nice quote mael...
math2p14 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-27-04, 06:37 PM   #4
JaredMcDonley
huh?
 
JaredMcDonley's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Gainesville, Florida - UF
Bikes:
Posts: 376
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Very interesting idea... kind make you wonder why no one did it before. At the same time I keep thinking man I don't want that for when I land or when I do this or that... But it is something neat to try when my LBS gets them.

Thanks mael for the article.
JaredMcDonley is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-27-04, 07:01 PM   #5
Maelstrom 
Wood Licker
Thread Starter
 
Maelstrom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Whistler,BC
Bikes: Transition Dirtbag, Kona Roast 2002 and specialized BMX
Posts: 16,885
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
To try what, the flippy shifters?
Maelstrom is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-27-04, 07:07 PM   #6
notfred
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: San Francisco, CA
Bikes:
Posts: 1,169
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
What are the flippy shifters? Some kind of road bike style brake/shifter combo? I haven't used them.
notfred is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-27-04, 08:03 PM   #7
JaredMcDonley
huh?
 
JaredMcDonley's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Gainesville, Florida - UF
Bikes:
Posts: 376
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Yeah.. why not?
JaredMcDonley is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-27-04, 08:09 PM   #8
Maelstrom 
Wood Licker
Thread Starter
 
Maelstrom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Whistler,BC
Bikes: Transition Dirtbag, Kona Roast 2002 and specialized BMX
Posts: 16,885
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Just wondering. They have actually been around for a while now. LX, XT and XTR offer them.

Notfred, yes they are a combo brake/shifter.
Maelstrom is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-27-04, 08:23 PM   #9
JaredMcDonley
huh?
 
JaredMcDonley's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Gainesville, Florida - UF
Bikes:
Posts: 376
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
are they really unpopular or something? I never saw those in any of my local shops.
JaredMcDonley is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-27-04, 08:24 PM   #10
Maelstrom 
Wood Licker
Thread Starter
 
Maelstrom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Whistler,BC
Bikes: Transition Dirtbag, Kona Roast 2002 and specialized BMX
Posts: 16,885
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
XC guys love them....

freeriders hate them. For many reasons.
Maelstrom is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-27-04, 08:27 PM   #11
jeff williams
I couldn't car less.
 
jeff williams's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Bikes: Ritchey P-series prototype, Diamondback, Nishiki Triathelon Pro.
Posts: 4,395
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maelstrom
Just wondering. They have actually been around for a while now. LX, XT and XTR offer them.

Notfred, yes they are a combo brake/shifter.
Never bought...avoid like plague. Combo housings ?? one part busts -replace whole unit?, naw.

Plus I only run one der shifter.

Hey..both are Shimano ..say 2000+..rapid F, and seperate? It's not a new thing...?
jeff williams is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-27-04, 08:31 PM   #12
Maelstrom 
Wood Licker
Thread Starter
 
Maelstrom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Whistler,BC
Bikes: Transition Dirtbag, Kona Roast 2002 and specialized BMX
Posts: 16,885
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Not a new thing, but they have moved sideways again. Instead of forcing the flippy shifters they are offering after market alternatives.

Althoguh it is still RR.
Maelstrom is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-27-04, 08:44 PM   #13
jeff williams
I couldn't car less.
 
jeff williams's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Bikes: Ritchey P-series prototype, Diamondback, Nishiki Triathelon Pro.
Posts: 4,395
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Bike bike blew up a sec ago..massive "BANG"..the r-wheel won't move free.

WHAAAAAA!!!!???????
jeff williams is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-27-04, 08:48 PM   #14
jeff williams
I couldn't car less.
 
jeff williams's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Bikes: Ritchey P-series prototype, Diamondback, Nishiki Triathelon Pro.
Posts: 4,395
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Loudest noise I heard other than it falling over ....
jeff williams is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-27-04, 08:50 PM   #15
jeff williams
I couldn't car less.
 
jeff williams's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Bikes: Ritchey P-series prototype, Diamondback, Nishiki Triathelon Pro.
Posts: 4,395
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I think my Mavic rim just exploded.

Yep, it caved to the wrong dish. I got an S. SSSSeveral, I think it might have pulled a spoke out.
jeff williams is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-27-04, 09:03 PM   #16
Maelstrom 
Wood Licker
Thread Starter
 
Maelstrom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Whistler,BC
Bikes: Transition Dirtbag, Kona Roast 2002 and specialized BMX
Posts: 16,885
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Umm...are you feeling alright
Maelstrom is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-27-04, 09:04 PM   #17
jeff williams
I couldn't car less.
 
jeff williams's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Bikes: Ritchey P-series prototype, Diamondback, Nishiki Triathelon Pro.
Posts: 4,395
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Spoke failed..loud! ..bikes been sitting hours..neat-o...not, but a first for me.

The rim is warped, that spoke was holding the dish tooo much I guess...

Sorry about the hijack...my bike just went KA-BANG!

DT Swiss, cranked up. (....more wheel repair..uuungg..)
jeff williams is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-28-04, 12:13 AM   #18
Raiyn
I drink your MILKSHAKE
 
Raiyn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: St. Petersburg, FL
Bikes: 2003 Specialized Rockhopper FSR Comp, 1999 Specialized Hardrock Comp FS, 1971 Schwinn Varsity
Posts: 15,061
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maelstrom
XC guys love them....

freeriders hate them. For many reasons.
Not all XC guys love them......
__________________
Raiyn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-28-04, 12:26 AM   #19
Maelstrom 
Wood Licker
Thread Starter
 
Maelstrom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Whistler,BC
Bikes: Transition Dirtbag, Kona Roast 2002 and specialized BMX
Posts: 16,885
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
True true. I would think roadie converts would love it
Maelstrom is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-28-04, 02:25 AM   #20
notfred
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: San Francisco, CA
Bikes:
Posts: 1,169
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Ok, I read the article, and the one thing that seems nice about rapid rise is that you'd finally end up with shifters where the same button on both shifters did the same thing: increase cable tension and the gear gets higher, decrease cable tension and the gear gets lower. It does sound like a decent concept, just backwards to everyone who's used to the current method.
notfred is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-28-04, 03:32 AM   #21
math2p14
Part of the furniture
 
math2p14's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Exeter UK, Athens Greece.
Bikes: Specialized RH, Scott Unitrack
Posts: 930
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Not all roadie converts love them
math2p14 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-28-04, 05:28 AM   #22
Karldar
SNIKT!
 
Karldar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Home for wayward mutants
Bikes: '06 Kona Dawg Deluxe/'06 Cannondale F400(frame)/'98 Cannondale SuperV1000
Posts: 1,560
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by notfred
Ok, I read the article, and the one thing that seems nice about rapid rise is that you'd finally end up with shifters where the same button on both shifters did the same thing: increase cable tension and the gear gets higher, decrease cable tension and the gear gets lower. It does sound like a decent concept, just backwards to everyone who's used to the current method.
I've got a set of XTR shifters that do exactly that on my F700. When I got them(several years ago), they were marketed as "racing" shifters--RR without an gear indicator. My SuperV's got XTR, too, but they're the opposite. Sucks when I switch bikes after riding one or the other for a while....
__________________
I like pie!
"The bright flicker of our television screens is the stolen incandescence of a thousand young minds." - Theodore W. Gray
"you taught us to fish while so many others were handing out tuna sandwiches" - Ziggurat
Karldar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-28-04, 05:38 AM   #23
khuon
DEADBEEF
 
khuon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Catching his breath alongside a road near Seattle, WA USA
Bikes: 1999 K2 OzM, 2001 Aegis Aro Svelte
Posts: 12,242
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Raiyn
Not all XC guys love them......
Ditto on that. I tried out a bike with them and hated it. It might be because I'm not that used to it but I was not confident in either shifting or braking with them. Throw in that blasted RapidRise and things got confusing as hell. As it is, even though I have STI dual-control levers on my roadbike, I'm actually more comfortable with Campy Ergos.
__________________
1999 K2 OzM 2001 Aegis Aro Svelte
"Be liberal in what you accept, and conservative in what you send." -- Jon Postel, RFC1122
khuon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-28-04, 05:41 AM   #24
khuon
DEADBEEF
 
khuon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Catching his breath alongside a road near Seattle, WA USA
Bikes: 1999 K2 OzM, 2001 Aegis Aro Svelte
Posts: 12,242
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by notfred
Ok, I read the article, and the one thing that seems nice about rapid rise is that you'd finally end up with shifters where the same button on both shifters did the same thing: increase cable tension and the gear gets higher, decrease cable tension and the gear gets lower. It does sound like a decent concept, just backwards to everyone who's used to the current method.
The problem is for us regular cyclists who would rather grab a handful of gears at a time and not just one cog, RapidRise does the exact opposite of what we need when that surprise hill comes up and you need to really downshift.
__________________
1999 K2 OzM 2001 Aegis Aro Svelte
"Be liberal in what you accept, and conservative in what you send." -- Jon Postel, RFC1122
khuon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-28-04, 05:55 AM   #25
serious
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Canada
Bikes: Trek Fuel 98
Posts: 150
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I am not surprised that the Dual Control RR system does not work for free riders. But the problem is Dual Control, not rapid rise. Rapid rise makes sense and the only people who argue against it are those who have to re-learn what has become instinctive shifting - I cannot blame them.

But if you are willing to re-learn or are new to mountain biking, having both shifters "move the same way" (i.e. shifting to a slow gear is the normal position of the gear) is definitely more intuitive. Not to mention that down-shifts are more "critical" in biking, so why not let the mechanics of the gear system take care of them - rather than the experience of the biker.

As for dual control, I love it. With hydraulic breaks, I only use a finger to break and, so far, I have never shifted unwillingly - even in very rough terrain. But what is rather unnerving with dual control is the fact that the system feels less than 100% solid. The slight rattle and the movement in 2 planes is definitely something you need to accept.

Bravo Shimano for understanding the different needs of free riders.
serious is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -6. The time now is 05:27 PM.