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  1. #1
    Wood Licker Maelstrom's Avatar
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    Holy Smokes - almost semi but not quite good news from shimano

    Ok long title. But as most know (and agree) rapid rise and flippy shifter suck in general for freeriding and dh (especially on anything shore like) Shimano has come up with a solution. They offer saint with generic standalone brake lever bodies and generic non labelled RR (damn them) shifters. Like I said, this is almost kinda but not quite good news.

    http://www.nsmb.com/gear/shimanocamp_11_04.php

    The article is there. From the perspective of both a shore rider and xc guy.

  2. #2
    Wood Licker Maelstrom's Avatar
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    For the lazy, here is the paragraph I am focussing on

    Dual Control and Freeride
    Another obvious difference is the level of technical difficulty on the trails on the Shore and in B.C. in general. The easiest trail on Fromme is vastly more difficult in every way than anything found at Fantasy Island. In fact you could probably ride brakeless if you were careful there but on the Shore losing either brake means the end of your ride. Which leads me to my next point; Dual Control and Freeride is not a match made in heaven. I had a good look at the bikes at Rampage and not a single rider - Shimano sponsored or not - was using Dual Control. When the speeds are high, the trails steep, the drops big or the logs skinny your brakes are everything. In those situations it makes absolutely no sense to have your brake levers doing double duty. You want them solidly mounted and moving along only one plane. When riding anything steep I find my fingers slipping off dual control and my fingers shift the levers after even a small drop. To their credit Shimano has added stand alone brake levers for Saint this year and they are also offering generic Rapid Fire shifters in either black or silver to match any of their groups.

  3. #3
    Part of the furniture math2p14's Avatar
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    Well at the current point in time, i dont need shimano. My XT (02) runs ok, my XT brakes are a marvel (outdo MonoM4 etc...), but if i need something to change if broken...then SRAM/Hayes for me (or hope if they prove reliable).

    nice quote mael...
    Where the skid marks stop...the tree begins....:D:D:D:D:D

  4. #4
    huh? JaredMcDonley's Avatar
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    Very interesting idea... kind make you wonder why no one did it before. At the same time I keep thinking man I don't want that for when I land or when I do this or that... But it is something neat to try when my LBS gets them.

    Thanks mael for the article.
    Liking what you do is Happiness; Doing what you like is Freedom.

  5. #5
    Wood Licker Maelstrom's Avatar
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    To try what, the flippy shifters?

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    What are the flippy shifters? Some kind of road bike style brake/shifter combo? I haven't used them.

  7. #7
    huh? JaredMcDonley's Avatar
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    Yeah.. why not?
    Liking what you do is Happiness; Doing what you like is Freedom.

  8. #8
    Wood Licker Maelstrom's Avatar
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    Just wondering. They have actually been around for a while now. LX, XT and XTR offer them.

    Notfred, yes they are a combo brake/shifter.

  9. #9
    huh? JaredMcDonley's Avatar
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    are they really unpopular or something? I never saw those in any of my local shops.
    Liking what you do is Happiness; Doing what you like is Freedom.

  10. #10
    Wood Licker Maelstrom's Avatar
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    XC guys love them....

    freeriders hate them. For many reasons.

  11. #11
    I couldn't car less. jeff williams's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maelstrom
    Just wondering. They have actually been around for a while now. LX, XT and XTR offer them.

    Notfred, yes they are a combo brake/shifter.
    Never bought...avoid like plague. Combo housings ?? one part busts -replace whole unit?, naw.

    Plus I only run one der shifter.

    Hey..both are Shimano ..say 2000+..rapid F, and seperate? It's not a new thing...?

  12. #12
    Wood Licker Maelstrom's Avatar
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    Not a new thing, but they have moved sideways again. Instead of forcing the flippy shifters they are offering after market alternatives.

    Althoguh it is still RR.

  13. #13
    I couldn't car less. jeff williams's Avatar
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    Bike bike blew up a sec ago..massive "BANG"..the r-wheel won't move free.

    WHAAAAAA!!!!???????

  14. #14
    I couldn't car less. jeff williams's Avatar
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    Loudest noise I heard other than it falling over ....

  15. #15
    I couldn't car less. jeff williams's Avatar
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    I think my Mavic rim just exploded.

    Yep, it caved to the wrong dish. I got an S. SSSSeveral, I think it might have pulled a spoke out.

  16. #16
    Wood Licker Maelstrom's Avatar
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    Umm...are you feeling alright

  17. #17
    I couldn't car less. jeff williams's Avatar
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    Spoke failed..loud! ..bikes been sitting hours..neat-o...not, but a first for me.

    The rim is warped, that spoke was holding the dish tooo much I guess...

    Sorry about the hijack...my bike just went KA-BANG!

    DT Swiss, cranked up. (....more wheel repair..uuungg..)

  18. #18
    I drink your MILKSHAKE Raiyn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maelstrom
    XC guys love them....

    freeriders hate them. For many reasons.
    Not all XC guys love them......

  19. #19
    Wood Licker Maelstrom's Avatar
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    True true. I would think roadie converts would love it

  20. #20
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    Ok, I read the article, and the one thing that seems nice about rapid rise is that you'd finally end up with shifters where the same button on both shifters did the same thing: increase cable tension and the gear gets higher, decrease cable tension and the gear gets lower. It does sound like a decent concept, just backwards to everyone who's used to the current method.

  21. #21
    Part of the furniture math2p14's Avatar
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    Not all roadie converts love them
    Where the skid marks stop...the tree begins....:D:D:D:D:D

  22. #22
    SNIKT! Karldar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by notfred
    Ok, I read the article, and the one thing that seems nice about rapid rise is that you'd finally end up with shifters where the same button on both shifters did the same thing: increase cable tension and the gear gets higher, decrease cable tension and the gear gets lower. It does sound like a decent concept, just backwards to everyone who's used to the current method.
    I've got a set of XTR shifters that do exactly that on my F700. When I got them(several years ago), they were marketed as "racing" shifters--RR without an gear indicator. My SuperV's got XTR, too, but they're the opposite. Sucks when I switch bikes after riding one or the other for a while....
    I like pie!
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  23. #23
    DEADBEEF khuon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raiyn
    Not all XC guys love them......
    Ditto on that. I tried out a bike with them and hated it. It might be because I'm not that used to it but I was not confident in either shifting or braking with them. Throw in that blasted RapidRise and things got confusing as hell. As it is, even though I have STI dual-control levers on my roadbike, I'm actually more comfortable with Campy Ergos.
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  24. #24
    DEADBEEF khuon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by notfred
    Ok, I read the article, and the one thing that seems nice about rapid rise is that you'd finally end up with shifters where the same button on both shifters did the same thing: increase cable tension and the gear gets higher, decrease cable tension and the gear gets lower. It does sound like a decent concept, just backwards to everyone who's used to the current method.
    The problem is for us regular cyclists who would rather grab a handful of gears at a time and not just one cog, RapidRise does the exact opposite of what we need when that surprise hill comes up and you need to really downshift.
    1999 K2 OzM 2001 Aegis Aro Svelte OCP Club Member
    "Be liberal in what you accept, and conservative in what you send." -- Jon Postel, RFC1122

  25. #25
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    I am not surprised that the Dual Control RR system does not work for free riders. But the problem is Dual Control, not rapid rise. Rapid rise makes sense and the only people who argue against it are those who have to re-learn what has become instinctive shifting - I cannot blame them.

    But if you are willing to re-learn or are new to mountain biking, having both shifters "move the same way" (i.e. shifting to a slow gear is the normal position of the gear) is definitely more intuitive. Not to mention that down-shifts are more "critical" in biking, so why not let the mechanics of the gear system take care of them - rather than the experience of the biker.

    As for dual control, I love it. With hydraulic breaks, I only use a finger to break and, so far, I have never shifted unwillingly - even in very rough terrain. But what is rather unnerving with dual control is the fact that the system feels less than 100% solid. The slight rattle and the movement in 2 planes is definitely something you need to accept.

    Bravo Shimano for understanding the different needs of free riders.

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