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Old 01-19-05, 08:30 PM   #1
s.c. rox!
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yeah this is the the thread that was accidentaly put in the introductions section. Well anyway I am thinking of getting a santa cruz blur and am debating which rear shock I should get. Fifth element air or fox float R? I know that the 'leaking damping fluid' from the fifth is in fact a greese that progressive puts in their shocks when they build them . The progressive has control valve damping and a large air can, perfect for the blur's VPP system, but the air only came out a few years ago, and floats have been around for much longer. weight is definatly an issue . thanx!

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Old 01-20-05, 10:13 AM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by s.c. rox!
yeah this is the the thread that was accidentaly put in the introductions section. Well anyway I am thinking of getting a santa cruz blur and am debating which rear shock I should get. Fifth element air or fox float R? I know that the 'leaking damping fluid' from the fifth is in fact a greese that progressive puts in their shocks when they build them . The progressive has control valve damping and a large air can, perfect for the blur's VPP system, but the air only came out a few years ago, and floats have been around for much longer. weight is definatly an issue . thanx!
I happen to own a blur (bought in late summer of 2003) with the 5th Element shock. However, I put some time on another blur with a Fox shock. The Fox shock I ran wasn't of the current platform variety, and it was quite plush in relation to the 5th element - it was also nearly 1/4 lb heavier. Also, my 5th element started losing air after a couple of rides. I had it sent back for a rebuild, and it's been stout ever since. The 5th Element performs very well, and is certainly more efficient than the more plush Fox. However, as stated, the Fox I ran was not of the Pro-Pedal variety.

The new Fox shock is supposed to be actually lighter than the 5th element. While I've had no further problems with the 5th Element, if I had to do it over today, I'd chose the new Fox shock. Fox just has such great quality in my opinion. I now fun Fox forx on all of my mtbs.

Good luck on your decision!
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Old 01-20-05, 01:29 PM   #3
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thanks Bac!

i am now leaning twards the fox . but still all of my friends that have a blur use a fifth. Well, it's great to be unique!

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Old 01-20-05, 04:54 PM   #4
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Fox forks and Fox shox are different. Fox forks are designed by a British company called Mojo I believe, at least all the internals are. There was a design error with the 5th air that was fixed, and personally....Id take that over a fox. Ive heard of way too many fox shoxs blowing, and tend to like Progressive alot. The new fox shock, the RP3? Id wait to see how that fairs before I buy it....

If weighs an issue, get the 5th....
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Old 02-11-05, 10:00 PM   #5
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^%$%$#&$#&$%#^$@@!$#&%!!!! i just tried a blur with the fifth! GUESS WHAT??? Right after the ride it stopped rebounding!!!!!!!!! I will not pay $100 more for something that i will have to replace within the first ride. FOX FLOAT RP3 ALL THE WAY!!!!

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Old 03-09-05, 05:22 PM   #6
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[QUOTE=s.c. roxFOX FLOAT RP3 ALL THE WAY!!!![/QUOTE]

Right on about the RP3. [link]MTBReview.com[/link] gives better reviews to any of the other shocks available on the Blur than the 5th Element.

I bought a Blur with 5th element last summer. Winter is my MTB season so not too many miles until December. I'm a roadie in the summer. Anyway the 5th element has failed twice in the past month. Both times on a really cold weather ride. It collapses and then will not rebound, but it doesn't lose air. It is just like there is a lockout on. I don't know if there is something about the cold and this shock or what.

My LBS and Progressive were both good about the first rebuild performed under warantee. It went in for the second today. I've contacted Santa Cruz (SC) about a swap. While they aren't responsible for the poor quality of the 5th Element, it is a recommended component, bought from them, and at a premium. Maybe SC will come through.

I requested a completely new shock instead of a rebuild from Progressive (through my LBS) and they say no dice until a third failure occurs. By the time this shock fails a third time I will go from low confidence in the shock to none.

I have to say this. When the shock is working it works very well.

Other contributing information:
I'm 160-165 lbs... not a clydesdale.
Most of the miles on the bike are urban streets.
No major hucking. Last night when my shock failed the bigest hit was dropping of a 10" curb.
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Old 03-09-05, 05:41 PM   #7
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I'd sooner get the 5th element. Also, the blur is a xc bike, it isn't intended to be a bike to do drops or launching off of stuff with.
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Old 03-09-05, 06:17 PM   #8
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10" though. Thats nothing. Kmart bikes shluld be able to outlast that
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Old 03-09-05, 06:42 PM   #9
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5th element.

I've been on some very tech XC trails, had some very big sudden hits, lots of mud and have had absolutly no problems.

To me, if you have to put a lockout lever on a shock it shows a lack of engineering in the shock and/ or frame.
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Old 03-09-05, 08:27 PM   #10
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I love that line of thinking, it is so true. A lockout is only needed on poorly design suspension or poor performing damping systems
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Old 03-10-05, 06:49 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KonaRider24
the blur is a xc bike, it isn't intended to be a bike to do drops or launching off of stuff with.
I only ride the Blur as an XC bike. I agree with Maelstrom, I don't consider dropping off a 10" curb a real drop. Konarider, have you had any personal experience with the 5th Element? It sounds like The Convert on a post above has had a much better experience with the 5th Element than I have. When the shock is working, which is most of the time, it is great, but two rebuilds in a month with street riding being the main venue is too much for me. I wish I were having the luck The Convert is having. Maybe the second rebuild will be better than the first. Either way I'll try to post my results in this thread or elsewhere.

Regarding lock outs. I agree completely. I bought the Blur with the 5th Element because I figured I would too often have the shock locked when I needed it unlocked and vice versa. I hope my first post wasn't misinterpretted. The 5th when it broke felt like it was locked out. It doesn't have a lockout.

Before I bought the Blur I tried a Specialized Epic just around the parking lot of the LBS and I didn't like the way the shock locks things out. Granted this probably wasn't a fair test. Anyone with a counterpoint about the Epic? The idea sounded like a good one, I just preferred the ride of the Blur.
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Old 03-10-05, 07:44 AM   #12
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Not dissing the 5th element at all, after all that's what I reccomended. I've had some experience with the 5th element coil. I have none with the air, but have set them up before for other people.

Quote:
Originally Posted by arwin
I only ride the Blur as an XC bike. I agree with Maelstrom, I don't consider dropping off a 10" curb a real drop. Konarider, have you had any personal experience with the 5th Element? It sounds like The Convert on a post above has had a much better experience with the 5th Element than I have. When the shock is working, which is most of the time, it is great, but two rebuilds in a month with street riding being the main venue is too much for me. I wish I were having the luck The Convert is having. Maybe the second rebuild will be better than the first. Either way I'll try to post my results in this thread or elsewhere.

Regarding lock outs. I agree completely. I bought the Blur with the 5th Element because I figured I would too often have the shock locked when I needed it unlocked and vice versa. I hope my first post wasn't misinterpretted. The 5th when it broke felt like it was locked out. It doesn't have a lockout.

Before I bought the Blur I tried a Specialized Epic just around the parking lot of the LBS and I didn't like the way the shock locks things out. Granted this probably wasn't a fair test. Anyone with a counterpoint about the Epic? The idea sounded like a good one, I just preferred the ride of the Blur.
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Old 03-10-05, 07:54 AM   #13
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Maybe I should have you rebuild/setup my 5th Element air. The factory hasn't done such a hot job
The 5th element air is rated by reviewers on MTBReview.com one full point out of 5 lower than the Coil model you use. [link]http://mtbr.com/reviews/Rear_Shock/product_122047.shtml[/link] I probably wasn't clear in my posts the Air model is the one I'm using.... of course Santa Cruz doesn't offer the 5th Element Coil because it probably isn't meant for XC.
Quote:
Originally Posted by KonaRider24
Not dissing the 5th element at all, after all that's what I reccomended. I've had some experience with the 5th element coil. I have none with the air, but have set them up before for other people.
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Old 03-10-05, 07:56 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Convert
To me, if you have to put a lockout lever on a shock it shows a lack of engineering in the shock and/ or frame.
The shock manufacturers don't necessarily know what frame their shock is going on, so the lockout may indeed be an asset for some. I agree with you in principle, however: I have a lockout on the Fox shock on my FSR and never use it.
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Old 03-10-05, 07:59 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arwin
Maybe I should have you rebuild/setup my 5th Element air. The factory hasn't done such a hot job
The 5th element air is rated by reviewers on MTBReview.com one full point out of 5 lower than the Coil model you use. [link]http://mtbr.com/reviews/Rear_Shock/product_122047.shtml[/link] I probably wasn't clear in my posts the Air model is the one I'm using.... of course Santa Cruz doesn't offer the 5th Element Coil because it probably isn't meant for XC.
Used to the coil version, I'm now a full time hardtail rider.
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Old 03-10-05, 12:58 PM   #16
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curnutt makes the best shock.IMO.
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Old 03-10-05, 04:11 PM   #17
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While I have no experience with the 5th element, check out MTBR.com and you'll find that the vast majority of people who have them have had problems with them. I did a lot of research before I got my last bike (last July) and the problems 5th element was having actually deterred me from buying a paricular bike.

As for Fox, I've had two different shocks and two different forks and both of them have been utterly bullet-proof.
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Old 03-10-05, 04:13 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KonaRider24
Not dissing the 5th element at all, after all that's what I reccomended. I've had some experience with the 5th element coil. I have none with the air, but have set them up before for other people.
The coil's supposed to be a great shock but, from what I hear, the air still has A LOT of issues.
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Old 03-10-05, 09:54 PM   #19
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Having owned a Blur with both (mine originally had the Fox Float and now has the 5th Element) I must say that personally I like the 5th Element better. For my riding style it seems to be much more versatile with less fuss than the Fox. It's at the point where I can alter the air pressure by 5-10 pounds for different trails I ride and have a vastly different riding bike. This was possible with the Fox, but I just felt like it was more trouble and wasn't quite as smooth. There will be lots of trash talking (ie my shock died on the first ride Fox/Progressive blows goats) and lots of positive stories (my Progressive/Fox shock took a 6ft drop and it still perfect). Seems like the internet really brings that out. My advice is to ride a bike equipped with both on the same trails with the proper setup (air pressure, etc) and let your body decide. My LBS was really awesome in this regard and gave me plenty of time to decide which shock worked for me, perhaps one in your local area that has both will be willing to do the same.
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Old 03-11-05, 06:49 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bmph8ter
There will be lots of trash talking (ie my shock died on the first ride Fox/Progressive blows goats) and lots of positive stories (my Progressive/Fox shock took a 6ft drop and it still perfect). Seems like the internet really brings that out. My advice is to ride a bike equipped with both on the same trails with the proper setup (air pressure, etc) and let your body decide. My LBS was really awesome in this regard and gave me plenty of time to decide which shock worked for me, perhaps one in your local area that has both will be willing to do the same.
I wish my story was the one "my Progressive/Fox shock took a 6ft drop and it still perfect". Well I don't do 6ft drops so I guess it couldn't be my story I'm glad your 5th element is going strong.

Regarding the point about trash talking products on the internet I disagree a bit. I think you have to take the data as a whole. If the numbers show a lot of people with problems compared to another brand as is the case with the 5th Element and the Fox Float RP3, I think it is wise to listen to the data. In other words where there is smoke there is probably fire. You do make a valid point though about reliability vs. capability. You do have to weigh one against the other. I would suspect if you had my experience with the 5th Element you'd probably say the sacrificed reliability isn't worth the added capability. Good for you this isn't the case.

I wish I had done my research prior to my purchase. I would not have bought the 5th Element. That is not to say had I bought a Fox I wouldn't have had any problems, but I would have increased my odds of having a good shock. I do agree when the 5th Element is working it is a great shock. It just doesn't soak up much terrain when it is in the factory being rebuilt

There hasn't been too much chatter about the Manitou Swinger. I understand Manitou actually liscensed the technology from Progressive. Is that true? Based on MTBReview, the Swinger has good reviews... however the feedback is based on fewer responses and less time on the shock. My LBS is big on the Swinger... they also defend the 5th Element's reliability, but maybe that is too be expected.
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Old 03-11-05, 06:53 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by motomickey
curnutt makes the best shock.IMO.
Where can I find info about Curnutt? I googled and didn't find many good sites. Does Curnutt make a XC shock and would it be a good match for an SC Blur? One more strike and the 5th Element is out.
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Old 03-11-05, 08:07 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arwin
Regarding the point about trash talking products on the internet I disagree a bit. I think you have to take the data as a whole. If the numbers show a lot of people with problems compared to another brand as is the case with the 5th Element and the Fox Float RP3, I think it is wise to listen to the data.
That actually was my point, that's why I mentioned both the positive AND negative. You always have to remember the old saying from the business world. A happy customer will only tell 1 person, but an unhappy customer will tell 10. You also should consider that most people will not go out of their way to make posts about good products; I've never posted in the reviews section at MTBR about my bikes, shocks, or equipment. If they are unhappy with something though you'd better watch out as the mud will start flying shortly.
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Old 03-11-05, 08:53 AM   #23
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If they are unhappy with something though you'd better watch out as the mud will start flying shortly.
The mud can't fly with my bike in the shop though
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Old 03-11-05, 09:04 AM   #24
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Curnutt-foesracing.com Don't know if they will fit other bikes, but it works incredibly well. All the 5element and nobob technology guys have to pay a royality to curnutt to use their technology. And curnutt didn't let them have all of it.
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Old 03-11-05, 09:48 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by motomickey
Curnutt-foesracing.com Don't know if they will fit other bikes, but it works incredibly well. All the 5element and nobob technology guys have to pay a royality to curnutt to use their technology. And curnutt didn't let them have all of it.
The address you gave didn't work, but www.foesracing.com did. I loaded the 2005 Foes catalog. In the catalog it says, "The Curnutt shocks are still only available on Foes frames, exclusively." The Curnutt shock sounds like a nice piece of hardware, but unless want to buy a frame with that shock you are SOL. Additionally these shocks look better suited to freeride or downhill than XC, but then I didn't find anything in the catalog to say which shock was suited to which application, but I may just have missed it. Thanks anyway for pointing out where all this anti-bob technology started. I never cared for Bob
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