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  1. #51
    Senior Member rebel1916's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zephyr11 View Post
    Agreed there...the Hardrock was a more than competent bike. For a while though, the "XC" version was the Hardrock XC, since the Hardrock itself was overbuilt (could still be used for XC though, obviously). Those overbuilt Hardrocks were pretty frickin' cool though...
    Ha, I remember at the time people posting on message boards about building dirt jump and 4cross bikes out of em. But yeah, it's a huge sturdy frame. The fork is the limiting factor for bigger hits. The weight is the limiting factor for going fast XC. I had some good times on that whip though!

  2. #52
    Certified Bike Brat Burton's Avatar
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    Shimano goes to great length in their dealer catalogues to describe exactly what their components are designed to handle, and each category is matched against a description of the driving terrain for that category and the bike style suitable.

    XC Race
    Track: Circuit criterium, Point to point, Olympic competition
    Bike: Superlight hardtail, good 4-inch dual suspension for rough and marathon style


    Cross country/marathon
    Track: Hilly terrain, Back country areas
    Bike: Hardtail, light weight 4 to 5-inch dual suspension.


    Trail
    Track: Stepping bump, Single track, Mountain path
    Bike: Moderate 5 to 6-inch dual suspension with good pedaling efficiency.


    All mountain/Enduro
    Track: Rugged relief, mountain challenge, long and winding route
    Bike: Stable 6 to 7-inch dual suspension with advanced control, Stiff axle system for frame rigidity.


    Free Ride
    Track: Observed trial stair. Drop offs and big air jumps.
    Bike: Durable 7 to 8-in suspension for big drops and gravity terrain.


    Down Hill
    Track: Down hill race course, Steep and rocky sections
    Bike: Aggressive 8-inch plus dual suspension for perfect bike control.


    Trekking
    Track: On-road, Smooth off-road.
    Bike: Cross, Trekking, Comfort


    Casual MTB
    Track: Smooth off-road
    Bike: Short travel suspension, Non-suspendion.


    City
    Track: City paved road
    Bike: MTB look alike



    Alivio, Acera and altus are only specced against ONE of those classifications - casual MTB. And 'smooth off-road' terrain they've also stated you can tackle with a comfort bike or trekking bike.

    In fact they also print a warning:
    Don't use a bike equipped with casual MTB/City components on agressive off-road trails. Alivio, Acera and Altus components are not developed for serious MTB riding. and there is a clear distinction with higher end components such as Deore and Saint groups in terms of purpose of use.
    So its possible that Shimano doesn't have a clue what they're designing, but I think its far more likely that some cyclists are simply over-rating their ability as mountain bikers and simply aren't pushing their equipment anywhere near the design limits - and that lots of reasonable riders could do those same 'trails' on comfort bikes and hybrids. There are a few riders that I know that deliberately use Alivio for serious mtb biking - but they go through three or four rear mechs a season and would rather do that than put out the money for a Saint rear mech.


    Just my opinion and another view on things.
    Last edited by Burton; 03-02-13 at 10:03 AM.

  3. #53
    Senior Member rebel1916's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Burton View Post

    So its possible that Shimano doesn't have a clue what they're designing, but I think its far more likely that some cyclists are simply over-rating their ability as mountain bikers and simply aren't pushing their equipment anywhere near the design limits - and that lots of reasonable riders could do those same 'trails' on comfort bikes and hybrids. There are a few riders that I know that deliberately use Alivio for serious mtb biking - but they go through three or four rear mechs a season and would rather do that than put out the money for a Saint rear mech.


    Just my opinion and another view on things.
    Oh, I am definitely a scrub, and I definitely prefer buff to tech. All I am saying is I have hundreds of hours of reliable use, including a few races, on what (according to bikepedia) is an 11 year old bike with an acera drivetrain.

  4. #54
    Certified Bike Brat Burton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rebel1916 View Post
    Oh, I am definitely a scrub, and I definitely prefer buff to tech. All I am saying is I have hundreds of hours of reliable use, including a few races, on what (according to bikepedia) is an 11 year old bike with an acera drivetrain.
    So lets not argue about what you did in the past - whatever you bought and used 11years ago isn't offered on the market today. I'd think a current build should reflect whats currently available. This is how Shimano currently describes the Acera line:
    ACERA is an MTB-style component group that offers an 8-speed drivetrain. ACERA delivers the responsive feeling of a serious mountain bike to casual riders and entry-level cyclists.
    I just swapped out an Alivio (9-speed) drivetrain for a RaceFace /Hone setup because I plan on some rough riding myself and don't want RD issues.
    Last edited by Burton; 03-02-13 at 01:09 PM.

  5. #55
    one less horse cryptid01's Avatar
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    i run 105 on the DH bike



    & DA on the 4X



    its definitely possible and in some cases beneficial to cross those marketing lines

    the alivio line was re-classified by shimano at one point iirc

  6. #56
    S'toon trail rider! MisterK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Burton View Post
    I just swapped out an Alivio (9-speed) drivetrain for a RaceFace /Hone setup because I plan on some rough riding myself and don't want RD issues.
    sorry to derail abit, but i actually have a question about this.
    i recently swapped to a 22-33-bash raceface ride. im using an alivio mega 9 fd and it seems that its just not setting up right with a double chainring crankset. heres a pic, thats as close as i can get the derailleur without it sitting directly on the chainstay.
    is there such thing as triple specific derailleurs? is this just the way its going to look and i should be fine or do i need to go to a Hone or something else. it just doesnt look right....

  7. #57
    Senior Member rebel1916's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Burton View Post
    So lets not argue about what you did in the past - whatever you bought and used 11years ago isn't offered on the market today. I'd think a current build should reflect whats currently available. This is how Shimano currently describes the Acera line:

    .
    Oh yeah, I'm am not in anyway suggesting the OP was useful, but that kind of is the crux of what I'm wondering. Was Acera better in the early oughts than it is in the early teens?

  8. #58
    Certified Bike Brat Burton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cryptid01 View Post
    i run 105 on the DH bike



    & DA on the 4X



    its definitely possible and in some cases beneficial to cross those marketing lines

    the alivio line was re-classified by shimano at one point iirc
    Cool! And from what I can see both short cage derailleurs. The advantage of a DH specific RD like Hone or Saint or Zee is that they're designed to take multiple direct impacts from rocks and still keep on working. I'm thinking you're a much better rider at avoiding contact with large items than the average down hiller.

    Or - if those derailleurs have battle scars - please post pics!

  9. #59
    Certified Bike Brat Burton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MisterK View Post
    sorry to derail abit, but i actually have a question about this.
    i recently swapped to a 22-33-bash raceface ride. im using an alivio mega 9 fd and it seems that its just not setting up right with a double chainring crankset. heres a pic, thats as close as i can get the derailleur without it sitting directly on the chainstay.
    is there such thing as triple specific derailleurs? is this just the way its going to look and i should be fine or do i need to go to a Hone or something else. it just doesnt look right....
    The chain, when seated on the 33T ring, needs to go through the center of the recessed channel in the FD. And I assume you locked out the possibility of shifting to the now missing big chainring. It might look funny simply because the bashguard is smaller than the missing chainring. If it works - its fine.

  10. #60
    Certified Bike Brat Burton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rebel1916 View Post
    Oh yeah, I'm am not in anyway suggesting the OP was useful, but that kind of is the crux of what I'm wondering. Was Acera better in the early oughts than it is in the early teens?
    A good question. In general I'd have more confidence in 8-speed short cage derailleurs over some of the 9-speed long cage stuff on the market for off road use anyway. Even in the Hone - I'm looking at a couple short cage versions for just that reason.

  11. #61
    S'toon trail rider! MisterK's Avatar
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    i hooked it all up and got my limits set and yeah, it looks kinda off, but it works perfectly fine. 1st to 2nd and back works fine, 3rd was eliminated with the limit screws (its a bash anyway).
    cant wait for spring, shes all ready now aside from some chain lube (I MIGHT spring for a new chain and cables and casing....but maybe not...)

  12. #62
    Certified Bike Brat Burton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MisterK View Post
    i hooked it all up and got my limits set and yeah, it looks kinda off, but it works perfectly fine. 1st to 2nd and back works fine, 3rd was eliminated with the limit screws (its a bash anyway).
    cant wait for spring, shes all ready now aside from some chain lube (I MIGHT spring for a new chain and cables and casing....but maybe not...)
    If you decide to go that route - I can't recommend the Jagwire Ripcord MTB kits highly enough! Have installed those on a couple mtbs and their Racer Kit on a couple road bikes. Extremely complete, well thought out and the least friction of anything on the market! The only downside is that the mtb kit isn't quite long enough to install full length housing on anything but a small frame. I got past that myself by installing an in-line adjuster at the derailleur end and finishing the run with a short SS wrapped length to the rear mech but have written to Jagwire and pleaded for another 6" to be added to the kit at some point in the future.

    Sprung for some corrosion resistant chains last year and drove one through the winter. I'm sold - won't be buying anything else from now on. Course for those people that manage to put on enough milage in a few months to wear out a chain there wouldn't be much advantage.

    I'm running the RaceFace Deus XC myself with 44/32/22 Turbine chainrings. Three years in I still like it! Maybe you can post how you make out with that Ride. With a bashguard I think you're into trails with more hazards than I am. They closed the XC trails at Bromont so I gotta look for something else anyway. DH is still open and a few buddies have some extra bikes
    Last edited by Burton; 03-02-13 at 06:54 PM.

  13. #63
    one less horse cryptid01's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Burton View Post
    Cool! And from what I can see both short cage derailleurs. The advantage of a DH specific RD like Hone or Saint or Zee is that they're designed to take multiple direct impacts from rocks and still keep on working. I'm thinking you're a much better rider at avoiding contact with large items than the average down hiller.

    Or - if those derailleurs have battle scars - please post pics!


    no major damage but its tougher than you might think and just nice and tucked up out of the way, which turns lots of direct hits into mere close calls.

    saint is next to bulletproof but of course one wayward stick is still all it takes...

  14. #64
    Certified Bike Brat Burton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cryptid01 View Post


    no major damage but its tougher than you might think and just nice and tucked up out of the way, which turns lots of direct hits into mere close calls.

    saint is next to bulletproof but of course one wayward stick is still all it takes...
    Yeah - tucked up is key - even for Saint! Congrads - has that nice DH lived-in look!
    Dare you to post that in the roadie forum!

  15. #65
    one less horse cryptid01's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Burton View Post
    Dare you to post that in the roadie forum!
    theres a roadie forum? i had no idea

  16. #66
    Certified Bike Brat Burton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cryptid01 View Post
    theres a roadie forum? i had no idea
    Yeah - but its one of those places you have to apply to - and your bike has to be worth more than your house, and three existing members have to think you're enough of a poser to vote you in.

  17. #67
    we be rollin' hybridbkrdr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dminor View Post
    And your "advice" still would have been totally useless for the person's situation.

    It is quite obvious you know very little about mountain bikes, although you seem to have some general bicycle knowledge. You would really serve yourself - - and everyone else - - better if you spent more time reading and absorbing the information on this forum rather than attempting to dispense any.
    I was asking for people to talk about their own ideas. Funny how all of a sudden, my posts are about "advice" and how I should shove it up my ass. Like I said, pinkbike has a forum where people discuss ideas. Here, some threads are one to five posts long mostly with people saying "RTFM" or "read the nice manual". Or, you get off-topic about whether you can ride a 10 year old bike or not. Ah, whatever. Maybe I'll go back to reading gminsidenews.com or diyaudio.com At least there people don't seem so traumatized that someone wrote something they can't understand.
    Feeling Good by David Burns

  18. #68
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    ssorry guys but it was my comment stating that he actual posted a mtb specific question and that if you don't like him on a personal level to ignore him that has spearheaded this discussion about what it and isn't MTB equipment. First and foremeost, a lot of you may know a ton about bikes but you may not know a lot about business. I know for a fact that half of the reason that Shimano has all these different levels is simply to create a PERCEPTION of value and luxury. it doesn't necessarily mean that the more expensive products are better. Quite frankly, we are pretty fortunate that almost everything shimano makes is functionally excellent. Often times we are paying higher price for lighter weight pieces that in many cases offer us LESS durability and marginally improved function.

    You can tell me all you want that alivio is a "hybrid" groupset and I'll tell you that in practice on one of my beater bikes it has been more than up to the task at the shift lever, brake lever, and rear derailleur and while I can appreciate an analogy such as "just because I drive my sports car on the beach doesn't make it a dune buggy" I would say that really isn't an apples to apples comparison. A sports car and dunebuggy we are talking about the frame and chassis setup a lot more than the engine and drive train under the hood. The proper analogy would be to drop a 500 hp v8 engine in the dunebuggy. You can still easily drive it on the beach, you just have far more horsepower than you need. Or like buying the 4cylinder version of a ford mustang. You still have a sports car, it's just probably not going to win any races but it can still competently navigate it's way around the track.

    So again, I say to you that it's obvious some have had issues with the OP, but why not just either answer his question or save yourselves the time and ignore him if you think him to be an idiot. He may very well have proven himself an idiot in other threads, but he's not out of line here.

  19. #69
    S'toon trail rider! MisterK's Avatar
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    I just try to positivily participate.
    I got no qualms with alivio, but I don't ride hardcore DH or extreme freeride. Anything intermediate or cross country, alivio should be perfectly fine. (It set up prefectly fine for me with no problem.)
    And the mustang II came with a 4cyl option, so a 4cyl mustang def does exist as compared to a sportscar dunebuggy.

  20. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by MisterK View Post
    I just try to positivily participate.
    I got no qualms with alivio, but I don't ride hardcore DH or extreme freeride. Anything intermediate or cross country, alivio should be perfectly fine. (It set up prefectly fine for me with no problem.)
    And the mustang II came with a 4cyl option, so a 4cyl mustang def does exist as compared to a sportscar dunebuggy.
    The Fox body Mustangs (78-93) all came with a 4 cyl. option as well ---- talk about ground pounding performance!
    But the SVO Mustang from 85 or 86 was a 4 cylinder and it was the real deal (turbo'ed out)

  21. #71
    Certified Bike Brat Burton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscTruckerMF View Post
    (snip) First and foremeost, a lot of you may know a ton about bikes but you may not know a lot about business. I know for a fact that half of the reason that Shimano has all these different levels is simply to create a PERCEPTION of value and luxury. (snip)
    Hate to say it - but you're living in a complete fantasy world. Shimano provides training videos on all its components outlining the significant differences and how to properly set up and service each one. Some of the differences are not immediately obvious - they're all significant. You're also in a bicycle forum where some people here manage and run their own shops successfully. My own background includes several years as a senior business analyst for one of the largest aircraft companies in the world. I'm in the cycling industry now cause I LIKE it. Don't know what your own business background is but its not coming across as anything but superficial.
    Last edited by Burton; 03-04-13 at 06:36 PM.

  22. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Burton View Post
    Hate to say it - but you're living in a complete fantasy world. Shimano provides training videos on all its components outlining the significant differences and how to properly set up and service each one. Some of the differences are not immediately obvious - they're all significant. You're also in a bicycle forum where some people here manage and run their own shops successfully. My own background includes several years as a senior business analyst for one of the largest aircraft companiesq in the world. I'm in the cycling industry now cause I LIKE it. Don't know what your own business background is but its not coming across as anything but superficial.
    hows this for superficial. I'll give you a xc bike with full xtr grouppo and I'll race you on the same frame and wheels with all alivio parts and we see who wins? If you win, you can say "I told you so" and if I win, I get your bike. Deal?

  23. #73
    Bad Company dminor's Avatar
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    This thread is now officially complete. Gauntlet is thrown on an e-race.

  24. #74
    To be continued Dannihilator's Avatar
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    All that is needed is...

    Strike like an eagle and sacrifice the dove.
    Words and Stuff.

  25. #75
    Cat 5 Mod Jandro's Avatar
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    They will surely deliver.

    Attack in the feeling because it says I'll win absolutely.

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