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Old 03-13-16, 09:46 AM   #1
cthenn
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Bill to end Daylight Savings

Daylight saving time could end in California | The Sacramento Bee

The idea of ending time changes sounds great to me, but according to this bill, it would end Daylight Savings, and keep us on Standard Time. As an after-work cyclist who looks forward to March every year to the extra light, this would really suck! Keeping us on Standard time would really put a dent on late afternoon activities I enjoy so much in Spring and Summer. I read many different articles on this subject, and in many of the comment threads, people seem to agree with my thought. End the time change, but keep us on Daylight Time, so it doesn't get dark so early in the afternoon. But there is a lot of confusion, because the name "Daylight Savings" is not that clear (to me at least), and people seem to think this change would keep us on Daylight Time, when it would not. If this gets before the voters, it will almost assuredly pass, because people generally do not like the time change. However, I would really hate going to full time "winter hours", and miss out on all the beautiful sunlight after work!
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Old 03-13-16, 12:22 PM   #2
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I'm on the same page. I generally dislike the clock moving, but I do like the DST side effects. And yes, a lot of people seem confused. I don't think they realize the short days we experience over winter are standard time and we just entered DST.
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Old 03-13-16, 12:29 PM   #3
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I'm on the same page. I generally dislike the clock moving, but I do like the DST side effects. And yes, a lot of people seem confused. I don't think they realize the short days we experience over winter are standard time and we just entered DST.
Short days are a product of Winter and seasons and living further and further away from the equator...clock shifting or not does nothing to change the amount of time between sunrise and sunset. Scrapping DST or Standard Time would not change how much daylight there is.
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Old 03-13-16, 12:44 PM   #4
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Short days are a product of Winter and seasons and living further and further away from the equator...clock shifting or not does nothing to change the amount of time between sunrise and sunset. Scrapping DST or Standard Time would not change how much daylight there is.
Yeah of course... First-grade science.
That's not what I am saying. If you remove DST, we won't have light in the late evenings in the summer. It will be dark at 7:30. Not at 8:30. We won't have as much light after work and having that hour at 6 am won't help me much.
But reading those comments people seem to think the DST is in effect in winter and, therefore, shifting the hours in winter. They don't realize that removing DST will keep winter evenings dark at 5:30 and reduce the amount of daylight after work in the summer.

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Old 03-13-16, 01:06 PM   #5
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Yeah of course... First-grade science.
That's not what I am saying. If you remove DST, we won't have light in the late evenings in the summer. It will be dark at 7:30. Not at 8:30. We won't have as much light after work and having that hour at 6 am won't help me much.
But reading those comments people seem to think the DST is in effect in winter and, therefore, shifting the hours in winter. They don't realize that removing DST will keep winter evenings dark at 5:30 and reduce the amount of daylight after work in the summer.
Is having the civil sunset at 8PM instead of 9 really that big a deal, insofar as riding is concerned?

Further with year around DST means for cycling commuters, riding in the dark as at the winter solstice sunrise wouldn't be until 9AM at say 45*N latitude. Here at 45* N it is already 630PM before civil sunset. Granted having ST year around would mean sunrise on the summer solstice would be 4AM at that same latitude.
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Old 03-13-16, 01:17 PM   #6
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Is having the civil sunset at 8PM instead of 9 really that big a deal, insofar as riding is concerned?

Further with year around DST means for cycling commuters, riding in the dark as at the winter solstice sunrise wouldn't be until 9AM at say 45*N latitude. Here at 45* N it is already 630PM before civil sunset. Granted having ST year around would mean sunrise on the summer solstice would be 4AM at that same latitude.
I have a very long commute and I don't get home until 7:30, so yes, it is a big deal for me. If I had to vote today between full time standard time, or maintaining DST as it is now, I would vote to keep the current system. Full time DST would probably not do much for me. I already commute in the dark, and I wouldn't be home on time to still have light in the evening. But I would still prefer full time dst to full time standard time
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Old 03-13-16, 03:21 PM   #7
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Is having the civil sunset at 8PM instead of 9 really that big a deal, insofar as riding is concerned?
It matters in the "transition" months like March and early April and then September at the end of summer. During Standard Time, in that timeframe, it would be dark at about 6 to 6:30, instead of 7:00 to 7:30. To some of us, that's the difference between going for a ride after work or not (because of my work schedule), especially up Diablo, which closes at sunset. Yes, I have lights and I do ride in the dark during winter, but it's infinitely more enjoyable to ride when there's still light and it's warm.

If this bill gets approved, I'd probably make plans with my boss to change my schedule, so I can leave work earlier than I do. Also, I think a lot of big businesses would oppose such a thing (golf industry, cycling, sporting goods manufacturers, etc.), not to mention all the kids' sports leagues that have games in the evening. I think many if not most people prefer the later sunset than the earlier sunrise, which is DST. Funny thing is the politician who is proposing this is getting complaints from his elderly constituents....of course he is, old people get up at 5 AM and go to bed at 7PM! They probably love it when it's dark at 5 in the afternoon...I hate it!!!
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Old 03-13-16, 03:24 PM   #8
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I'm on the same page. I generally dislike the clock moving, but I do like the DST side effects. And yes, a lot of people seem confused. I don't think they realize the short days we experience over winter are standard time and we just entered DST.
BTW, I agree on the actual clock moving...I hate this. I'm so out of it today, and the day seems like it is flying by. Takes me over a week to adjust. But for the 8 months of later sunsets, it's totally worth it!
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Old 03-13-16, 11:57 PM   #9
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Most european countries are two hours ahead of the sun in the summer and one hour in the winter--so they have daylight savings time throughout the year and in the summer super/turbo-daylight savings time and northern Europe is at least 10 degrees further North than we are--so you can imagine those very long evenings--still light at 10 p.m. in Paris enjoying a drink on the sidewalk cafés!
We should have daylight savings time throughout the year--it would be simpler!
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Old 03-14-16, 01:45 AM   #10
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I'm on the same page. I generally dislike the clock moving, but I do like the DST side effects. And yes, a lot of people seem confused. I don't think they realize the short days we experience over winter are standard time and we just entered DST.
I'd rather do away with "standard time", and keep daylight savings time.

But, it really is just a number. If there was a will, businesses could adjust their schedules to the daylight. So, rather than work 8-5, one could work 7-4, or heaven forbid, 6-3.
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Old 03-14-16, 10:17 AM   #11
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People deal with jet lag all the time - I really don't understand all the problems with a time switch where we all have one hour jet lag at the same time... and it's always on a weekend when most folks can bank their sleep to help.

Big deal.

If we went DST all the time, sunrise in December in NorCal would be 8:30am... that would suck way worse than shifting time twice a year. And if we got rid of DST, sunrise in June would be 4:30am... come on; nobody wants that.

Things are good the way they are. I can't believe all the complaining.

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Old 03-14-16, 12:14 PM   #12
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...

If we went DST all the time, sunrise in December in NorCal would be 8:30am... that would suck way worse than shifting time twice a year. And if we got rid of DST, sunrise in June would be 4:30am... come on; nobody wants that.

Things are good the way they are. I can't believe all the complaining.

Folks complain because they've never actually done the math. So it takes a few days to adjust… I can deal with it. The payoff is well worth it.


-Kedosto
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Old 03-14-16, 01:40 PM   #13
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If we went DST all the time, sunrise in December in NorCal would be 8:30am... that would suck way worse than shifting time twice a year. And if we got rid of DST, sunrise in June would be 4:30am... come on; nobody wants that.

Things are good the way they are. I can't believe all the complaining.
I'd much rather have sunrise at 8:30 am than sunset at 4:30 PM.

But, yes, the idea of Daylight Savings time is to capture that early morning sunshine from mid summer and move it to a more useful period of the day. It is nice to have it bright out until 9 PM
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Old 03-14-16, 01:54 PM   #14
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Most european countries are two hours ahead of the sun in the summer and one hour in the winter--so they have daylight savings time throughout the year and in the summer super/turbo-daylight savings time and northern Europe is at least 10 degrees further North than we are--so you can imagine those very long evenings--still light at 10 p.m. in Paris enjoying a drink on the sidewalk cafés!
We should have daylight savings time throughout the year--it would be simpler!
I remember sitting outside in Amsterdam on July 3rd. waiting for my dinner to arrive. One in our crowd asked the rest of us what time we thought it was. I looked at the light and guessed 7:30 or so. It was around 9.

I will be touring in Montana (loop out of Missoula) for 11 days starting June 14th. The earliest sunset will occur during the trip is around 9:25 p.m.
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Old 03-14-16, 02:27 PM   #15
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One of the reasons for keeping standard time is so it won't be dark for the kids going to school in the morning. Just saying.
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Old 03-14-16, 03:12 PM   #16
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The current system is GREAT. This is a triumph of mankind over nature. We should all be grateful we live in a modern society that can create this wonderful feature.

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Old 03-14-16, 04:46 PM   #17
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One of the reasons for keeping standard time is so it won't be dark for the kids going to school in the morning. Just saying.
But then those same kids may not be able to participate in as many evening sports like baseball and soccer because a lot of those things start in the early evening. Not all fields have lights, and if the sun is going down at 6 or 6:30, except for a few weeks in July, that could cause problems for some of these kids' sports leagues.
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Old 03-14-16, 04:56 PM   #18
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Cool chart. Man, it's depressing to see how early it would be getting dark, except for the few weeks in July, when it would stay light until almost 7PM (ooh, 7PM!). I actually never thought about this issue until now, and it's true, before I gave it some real thought, I hated this time changing, especially in the Spring (but it was offset by the fact we get to go outside and play after work!). And that's what I worry about, if this gets to the ballot, people will probably vote for it, simply because they are lazy and don't think about these things, and have the same lazy rationale of "it's outdated and antiquated" and "I hate changing the clock, I lose an hour of sleep (no you don't) for ONE WHOLE DAY!"

I would have to think this would actually be a fairly contested issue, with a lot of businesses and industries against the idea putting money toward a campaign to defeat such a ballot measure. In fact, this was first time I wrote my state congressional representative...this is a big issue for me! Who cares if a reality TV star who makes penis jokes could be president, I want my DST!!!
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Old 03-14-16, 05:08 PM   #19
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But then those same kids may not be able to participate in as many evening sports like baseball and soccer because a lot of those things start in the early evening. Not all fields have lights, and if the sun is going down at 6 or 6:30, except for a few weeks in July, that could cause problems for some of these kids' sports leagues.
Then they should start school later. This would also be good for teenagers especially as their natural sleep/wake periods run later than adults' natural sleep/wake periods. But then you have to figure out how these kids are going to get to school and how that fits in with parents' work schedule. It's a problem. Meanwhile, it's estimated that the number of deaths in car accidents in the week after the change between DST and Standard Time increases from 700 to 800. It's a confusing question.
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Old 03-14-16, 05:14 PM   #20
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People deal with jet lag all the time - I really don't understand all the problems with a time switch where we all have one hour jet lag at the same time... and it's always on a weekend when most folks can bank their sleep to help.

Big deal.

If we went DST all the time, sunrise in December in NorCal would be 8:30am... that would suck way worse than shifting time twice a year. And if we got rid of DST, sunrise in June would be 4:30am... come on; nobody wants that.

Things are good the way they are. I can't believe all the complaining.
Oh, good grief, you're trying to be logical and rational. Complaining is so rarely based on being logical and rational.

Everything you say is correct for those of us who live around these latitudes. There are reasonable arguments on both sides as to exactly when the shift should occur (first weekend of April, second week of March, last weekend of October, first weekend of November), but so long as it isn't dark when too many people are getting their day started, be on DST. When it would otherwise be dark too late in the morning, be on Standard Time. One hour jet lag twice a year? No big deal. Really.

The current system works pretty darned well.
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Old 03-14-16, 05:21 PM   #21
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Then they should start school later. This would also be good for teenagers especially as their natural sleep/wake periods run later than adults' natural sleep/wake periods. But then you have to figure out how these kids are going to get to school and how that fits in with parents' work schedule. It's a problem. Meanwhile, it's estimated that the number of deaths in car accidents in the week after the change between DST and Standard Time increases from 700 to 800. It's a confusing question.
And then if you stay on Daylight Saving Time year round, there are the additional deaths due to decreased morning light in late fall/winter. And if you stay on Standard Time year round, the increased deaths decreased evening light in spring, summer, and early fall.

Maximize daylight during the most active hours outdoors (like DiabloScott' chart suggests we pretty much do now) and you minimize deaths due to darkness.
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Old 03-14-16, 05:39 PM   #22
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Meanwhile, it's estimated that the number of deaths in car accidents in the week after the change between DST and Standard Time increases from 700 to 800. It's a confusing question.
The figure I saw was 30 additional traffic fatalities in the week following the change.... out of 18,000 annually (your number implies 36,000 fatalities per year). Always sad, but that's not the reason anybody is anti DST.
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Old 03-14-16, 06:02 PM   #23
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Is having the civil sunset at 8PM instead of 9 really that big a deal, insofar as riding is concerned?
Absolutely. I can get in a 1:30 - 2:00 hour ride after work from 6-8 and still be home safely way before the sun sets if I flat or have any issues on the road.
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Old 03-15-16, 07:36 AM   #24
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The figure I saw was 30 additional traffic fatalities in the week following the change.... out of 18,000 annually (your number implies 36,000 fatalities per year). Always sad, but that's not the reason anybody is anti DST.
It's not an issue that has been studied in a comprehensive enough manner to make an informed decision. Lot's of variables. Kids going to school in the dark. The effects of the "jet lag" on safety. Effects of changing or not changing the clock on energy usage. Effects on commerce and recreation. Etc. Society needs better information and then has to set priorities that balance the good and bad in a way that best meets our needs.
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Old 03-15-16, 10:54 AM   #25
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It's not an issue that has been studied in a comprehensive enough manner to make an informed decision.
It has been studied pretty well over many years. Including years when DST began in early April and subsequent years when DST began in mid March - so there are identical weeks of the year that were both before and after DST which pretty well isolates the effect of the switch. The 30 per year number was an average over 10 years.

Crime and violent crime also go down.

Energy savings claim is not supported.
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