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  1. #1
    Senior Member cthenn's Avatar
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    Diablo Country Club

    Before I get heated again, let me preface this by saying the problem in Diablo CC is *probably* just a minority handful of vocal complainers that have no real problems in life.

    But...today, I did the NG-SG loop from my house, and I passed through the "hole in the wall" into Diablo CC. It appears someone has erected signs that say "trespassing forbidden, except for Diablo CC residents" or words to that effect. And one of the houses had a sign in the front yard saying something like "cyclists, obey the law and respect our community". Also, I have a buddy who works for the County, and he's told me these people call all the time, trying to get a sign erected saying "residents only, no cyclists". These people are so cheap with their millions, they can't even foot the bill for a sign or two! They are private roads, I get it, but I just don't understand all the hate for cyclists who simply want to bypass an extremely DANGEROUS road and ride through the relative safety of side roads. I obey all the stop signs, and try to ride as far to the right as I can...in fact I'm extra sensitive in that area because I do know that the residents seem to despise cyclists.

    What I found hilarious was the vast number of landscaper trucks parked all over the roads, some of them not very well, and all these guys in the middle of the road with their loud-a$$ leafblowers. I guess it's ok for these guys to impede traffic and be all over the place making noise? I have nothing against these workers, but I find it funny that a bicyclist or two is such an incredible nuisance to these people, but trucks blocking the road and all this noise generated by lawn mowers and blowers is perfectly fine. I guess I understand...someone has to clean up after the 1%-ers. Lord knows these people aren't going to do any kind of manual labor themselves...make the poor serfs do it.

    I don't know what happened, but it seems like in the last few years, it's gotten very adversarial between cyclists and this community. I've been riding through there for 10 years or more and never heard of any problems like this until the last few years. I'm betting it has something to do with the Amgen Tour and the glut of cyclists who probably do clog the roads in there. In fact, I think they posted Sheriffs there last year to prevent people from riding through. I have no doubt one of these days very soon, it will com to a head with a road rage incident. Someone is going to get hurt, arrrested, or both. I just pray it's not me.

    The only solution I can see that may actually affect change is if cyclists do start riding more on Diablo Road, but "take the lane" in portions of it. Just ride 12 mph in the middle of the road... because some of these impatient drivers do some extremely dangerous passing on that road. I'm quite afraid every time I ride portions of that road. I wouldn't recommend people do this on solo rides, but if a group is riding together, just take the lane, for safety reasons. Enough complaints from the Blackhawk people who are inconvenienced may get these disinterested politicians moving toward creating a safe passage through there.

    Again, I understand, they are private roads, and only the residents want to be allowed into their perfect lily white neighborhood, not to be sullied by dirty low class cyclists. But give us a break, the alternative is a very dangerous stretch of Diablo Road that I don't think anyone likes riding. (And I KNOW drivers do not want us on there...) If they successfully kick every cyclist onto Diablo Rd, and someone dies because they were hit by a speeding car, these people would not care in the least. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if some of them took joy in it.

    So, I think what I'm going to do for now is only ride on the road that parallels Diablo Rd, then pop back out onto it right before the turn-off to Diablo Scenic. I'm going to stay away from the hole in the wall and keep to the outskirts. Maybe that'll keep me out of trouble...

  2. #2
    Senior Member hack's Avatar
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    It seems pretty black and white, really. It's private property. They've paid for the privilege to live behind a gate. They've put up signs that request people not trespass. The signs have gone ignored. They've had additional signs put up that specify a group they'd like to respect their privacy and not trespass. I don't blame for being upset. Where is the line drawn? If a group of cyclists are coming down and they're low on water, why not use one of the residents' hose, sink, fridge? If people used my property for a shortcut, I'd be ticked too. You as an individual may be a well behaved stop at all stop signs kind of cyclist, but I am guessing they also get the cyclists that rip through THEIR neighborhood ignoring all rules of the road. I imagine that is what has led to their issue more than the occasional nice cyclist. One bag egg spoils the bunch.

    At the same time, I am a cyclist and understand that it also sucks riding on sketchy roads. As a result, I avoid the sketchy roads if I'm out solo. It seems more that an effort needs to be taken to bring up the lack of safety of the roads to the County folks and have that addressed. Alternatively, in an area as affluent as Diablo, I imagine that there are a few cyclists that live behind the gates that you may be able to befriend and plead a case to get some kind of rule change.

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    it's a moot point. there has been de facto public access through the hole in the wall for at least a decade, probably more, and, as i understand it, private property owners cannot now restrict it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hack View Post
    It seems pretty black and white, really. It's private property. They've paid for the privilege to live behind a gate.
    But they're not living behind a gate. There was a proposal a year or more ago to make the area into a gated community, but it either failed to get community approval and/or there were legal issues (possibly the adverse possession laws?). In any event I haven't heard anything about that suggestion for some time now.

    They've put up signs that request people not trespass. The signs have gone ignored. They've had additional signs put up that specify a group they'd like to respect their privacy and not trespass.
    I haven't seen any signs that look official - the ones I've seen appear to have been erected by a few of the homeowners and have no legal standing. That's presumably why county officials have been getting requests to put up government-authorized signs that would have some legal standing - but at this point there has been no approval of any such signage or legal restriction to access.
    It seems more that an effort needs to be taken to bring up the lack of safety of the roads to the County folks and have that addressed. Alternatively, in an area as affluent as Diablo, I imagine that there are a few cyclists that live behind the gates that you may be able to befriend and plead a case to get some kind of rule change.
    There have been public meetings involving the CC community, the town of Danville, the Summerhill developer, and the county to discuss alternatives to make that section of Diablo Rd. safer. AFAIK there hasn't been any agreement reached to date - not sure if further meetings are currently on the schedule. The current rule is that cyclists and other members of the public have access to the roads through the country club. It's some members of that community who have been seeking a change to that rule.

  5. #5
    Senior Member hack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by prathmann View Post
    But they're not living behind a gate. There was a proposal a year or more ago to make the area into a gated community, but it either failed to get community approval and/or there were legal issues (possibly the adverse possession laws?). In any event I haven't heard anything about that suggestion for some time now.


    I haven't seen any signs that look official - the ones I've seen appear to have been erected by a few of the homeowners and have no legal standing. That's presumably why county officials have been getting requests to put up government-authorized signs that would have some legal standing - but at this point there has been no approval of any such signage or legal restriction to access.

    There have been public meetings involving the CC community, the town of Danville, the Summerhill developer, and the county to discuss alternatives to make that section of Diablo Rd. safer. AFAIK there hasn't been any agreement reached to date - not sure if further meetings are currently on the schedule. The current rule is that cyclists and other members of the public have access to the roads through the country club. It's some members of that community who have been seeking a change to that rule.
    Good intel. I don't get through there often enough to have full familiarity with the situation and was working on assumption. It's really a tough situation for all parties involved. Cyclists want to be safe, cars want to drive fast and unaware, and some property owners in the private community don't want cyclists coming through.

    With that said, private roads are private and while we use private (private, but not gated) roads as bridging points to other roads up this way, we make sure to do so with respect (yield whenever possible, ride to the right as far as possible, stop fully [groups up to 50] at signs, etc). There used to be a ride up here that used a private road and people abused the privilege and rode carelessly. As a result, the residents grew tired of the antics, voiced their opinion and now the ride uses an alternate, albeit less safe, route.

  6. #6
    It's MY mountain DiabloScott's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cthenn View Post
    What I found hilarious was the vast number of landscaper trucks parked all over the roads, some of them not very well, and all these guys in the middle of the road with their loud-a$$ leafblowers.
    That's what I always notice too - if the residents' objection were really that the cyclists are not being courteous enough, then they'd be cracking down on these guys as well. My perception is that it's a few elitists who hate that bikes use their neighborhood for a shortcut, and their blood pressure skyrockets every time they see a rider who doesn't put a foot down at a stop sign.
    http://diabloscott.blogspot.com/

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    There are a several gated communities with private roads in my area and unfortunately many have great climbs.

    If cyclists were smart, they would respect these private roads and not impede with the residents in any way. But nooooooo, there are a few chuckleheads that actually created Strava segments and compete for KOMs down these private roads.

    Because of these few, I would ban cyclists as well if I were a resident. This is why we can't have nice things.

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    Crawlin' up, flyin' down bikingshearer's Avatar
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    A couple of thoughts in response to what I've read here.

    1) I see no lawful way the residents can shut off the hole-in-the-wall and the road that connects it to Diablo Rd further down. It has been in use by the general public (yes, we cyclists are part of the "general public") for far too long. Call it "adverse possession" or a "prescriptive easement," I don't see how these folks have a legal leg to stand one, as long as the cycling community is prepared to stand together if the residents try to deny access.

    2) This is not a case where the drivers just want to go fast. It has been my experience that people don't drive fast in this country club, if so no other reason than there are too many speed bumps.

    3) On the other hand, it has also been my experience that far too many cyclists ignore stop signs, hog the road, and generally do all the things that p*ss off drivers in general and residents in particular. It's a variation on exactly what Tycho Brahe described. It is this kind of bad behavior that leads to stupid confrontations like this in the first place and makes it harder to keep off the grumpy "get off my lawn" types' radar. Legally, we have the right to be there. But It's far better not to get into an avoidable fight than to win the fight.
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    I'm fine with the hole shortcut being blocked. Following the roads bypasses the really bad sections of Diablo Rd and basically drops you right by Athenian school.

    The best solution would be to continue the paved path all the way to Athenian, but good luck getting that paid for. After all, it took the Tour to get the potholes fixed.

  10. #10
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    do you mean alameda diablo road ?... I've never went that way... I usually come up from the other side of diablo rd.. so scenic is the first thing I see.

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    As a resident of Diablo I'd like to clarify a couple misconceptions in your post. We realize Diablo Road is dangerous. While you may be riding alone or within a small group, we have had cycling packs of more than 50 come through at once. We've have recent counts between 200-300 per day (Saturday & Sunday). That works out to an estimated 10,000 per year traveling down 2 or 3 main arteries. We have approximately 400 homes. Most, but not all, have gardeners. But even then, all 400 of then aren't "leaf blowing" on these main roads, they're spread throughout all of Diablo.

    There already has been a road rage incident. Last year a cyclist who blew through a stop sign was pulled over by the sheriff. The cyclist became outraged and threw his bike at the sheriff. He was arrested and charged with assault on an officer. Please note the ticket for not stopping at a stop sign is $288 and FYI the community gets about $15 of that after the county and other agencies take their share.

    The city of Danville doesn't appear to want anything to do with helping out the situation. They could very easily asked the developer, Summerhill, as one of their conditions of approval to build 50+ homes, put in a bike path through the winding sections of Diablo Road. When Danville built the current Diablo Road bike path it's clear they felt it was OK to send bikes through Diablo as the bike path ends at Calle Arroyo and restarts at Mt. Diablo Scenic. Perhaps putting some pressure on Danville would help alleviate some of the bike traffic through Diablo.

    When passing through Diablo would you please obey the traffic laws and stop signs.

  12. #12
    It's MY mountain DiabloScott's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiabloCC View Post

    There already has been a road rage incident. Last year a cyclist who blew through a stop sign was pulled over by the sheriff. The cyclist became outraged and threw his bike at the sheriff. He was arrested and charged with assault on an officer.

    When passing through Diablo would you please obey the traffic laws and stop signs.
    I agree the road rage cyclist needed to be arrested (if true, I couldn't find info on it).

    Do you agree the complete stop thing is a little overkill provided the cyclist (or car) is being safe and courteous?

    Do you agree that the "no trespassing" sign was inappropriate?

    Here's an idea - whenever you see cyclists passing through in a safe and courteous manner, give them a friendly welcoming wave, then it will show everyone that your real objective is safety and not snootiness.

    There are at least 10,000 cyclists passing in front of my house every year, it's not a problem.
    http://diabloscott.blogspot.com/

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    The road rage incident came directly from the sheriff's mouth. I've also personally heard unkind verbal exchanges between cyclists, sheriff and neighbors.

    If the sign says STOP, a bike, a car or a golf cart should all stop. Why should anyone randomly be able to decide if it's safe even if being courteous? Why the disrespect for the law?

    The "no trespassing" sign is the "right" of the landowner, although, it might not be enforceable. But, why would someone want to spray paint over it or tear it down to make a point? It needlessly upsets people; if you're trying to make a point, it's not working.

    I walk a lot and do say hi to cyclists or walkers who pass. You'd be surprised how many don't even acknowledge me..... bikers more than walkers.

    10,000 cyclists on a narrow, 2 lane road where they're cautious about oncoming traffic and stay in their lane is one thing (i.e. Mt. Diablo Scenic near the lower gate) isn't a problem. A portion of the 10,000 cyclists who ride 2,3 or 4 abreast, don't stop at stop signs, cross over the middle of the road and pass cars doing the speed limit IS a problem.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DiabloCC View Post
    The road rage incident came directly from the sheriff's mouth. I've also personally heard unkind verbal exchanges between cyclists, sheriff and neighbors.

    If the sign says STOP, a bike, a car or a golf cart should all stop. Why should anyone randomly be able to decide if it's safe even if being courteous? Why the disrespect for the law?

    The "no trespassing" sign is the "right" of the landowner, although, it might not be enforceable. But, why would someone want to spray paint over it or tear it down to make a point? It needlessly upsets people; if you're trying to make a point, it's not working.

    I walk a lot and do say hi to cyclists or walkers who pass. You'd be surprised how many don't even acknowledge me..... bikers more than walkers.

    10,000 cyclists on a narrow, 2 lane road where they're cautious about oncoming traffic and stay in their lane is one thing (i.e. Mt. Diablo Scenic near the lower gate) isn't a problem. A portion of the 10,000 cyclists who ride 2,3 or 4 abreast, don't stop at stop signs, cross over the middle of the road and pass cars doing the speed limit IS a problem.
    Sheriff : He still has to file a police report and such there would be a record of it.. otherwise it's BS
    Stop Sign : I agree somewhat
    No Trespassing : Seems the sign might not be the "right" of the landowner if not on his/her land.. where is the respect for the law there ?
    Saying Hi : maybe the cyclist is huffing up a hill.. many times I pay no attention to people or other bikes in these cases.. I need all the O2 I can get
    10K Cyclist : if they obey ALL laws then you have no issues then ? 2-3-4 abreast should not be an issue if they can go the speed limit right ?

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    I have no reason to not believe the sheriff (someone I know and trust) and am not interested in spending time to see if there was a police report.

    The No Trespassing signs are on the homeowners' fences. It's up to the homeowner to test the validity of sign in court but are you willing to be the one they test it on? If you pass through without causing any problems, they probably won't care. But if the defacing of the sign and tearing down the sign continues, he might change his tune.

    I say Hi to everyone. That includes while on the flat roads where they shouldn't be huffing. If it doesn't hurt for me to say Hi, couldn't a simple nod or waive be too much to ask? If you're huffing so much and "pay no attention to people or other bikes in these cases", isn't that a problem for the safety of others (people, cars, bikes, carts) around you?

    I don't have a problem with cyclists that obey the laws. 2-3-4 abreast is a problem on Alameda Diablo, La Cadena and Calle Arroyo because they would be using more than half the road.
    Last edited by DiabloCC; 04-23-14 at 11:48 AM. Reason: Added to comments.

  16. #16
    Erect member since 1953 cccorlew's Avatar
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    Interesting stuff. I ride through there, and usually don't see any cars, walkers or cyclists. I must be going at an odd time.

    What's all the concern with stop signs? Does it just bug people, because I'd think it's more dangerous for the cyclist than anyone else.
    It would be interesting to see how many cars actually come to a full stop at those signs. I'm my experience cars rarely stop completely. My personal theory is that no more car infrastructure should be constructed until all car drivers obey the laws.

    Seriously, other than the burden of seeing fat folks in lycra, is having cyclists on your road any worse than trucks, school busses and dog walkers who walk in the middle of the lane? Heck, generally they are pretty low impact. They certainly don't wear out the street. Yes, you had a crazy cyclist with road rage. I can't condone that, but 1 in 10,000/year is really good ratio. Heck, I'd take that for car driver buzzing or trying to kill me.

    Waving: You might be missing it. Very cool cyclists are so cool that their nod, or slight lifting of a finger in greeting can be entirely missed by non-experts. Just assume they all are all acknowledging you in their own hyper-subtle way.

    All that said, it's pretty cool of DiabloCC to show up in a cycling forum and try to start a dialog. I'm be rolling through on my bike, but I'll be careful, and stop at the signs.
    Last edited by cccorlew; 04-23-14 at 09:41 PM.
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    I don't understand the debate...be respectful of the signs and locals have asked to respect the "no trespassing". Do it, respect the signs and respect the locals...personally I wouldn't want anyone crawling thru my backyard with a bike because it was convenient. *shrug*

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    Senior Member cthenn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by c0lnago View Post
    I don't understand the debate...be respectful of the signs and locals have asked to respect the "no trespassing". Do it, respect the signs and respect the locals...personally I wouldn't want anyone crawling thru my backyard with a bike because it was convenient. *shrug*
    Because they're all ******bags, that's why. Not rocket surgery.

    Also, it's not a backyard. It's a road that is plenty wide enough for bikes and cars. You don't care because you don't ride here. If they want the riff raff out, put up a gate and fence off the hole in the wall. That will solve everything, and I can go on grumbling to other people who don't give a flip.
    Last edited by cthenn; 04-23-14 at 04:01 PM.

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    It's MY mountain DiabloScott's Avatar
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    There are members of my health club team who live in Diablo and keep us updated on the scuttlebutt.

    I understand there are some rude riders cutting through there and I sympathize, but rude riders (and drivers and dog walkers) are everywhere and living on a private street doesn't buy your way out of that. Sure, step up the enforcement, but the sheriff and the full stop enforcement seemed more like selective harassment and intimidation of cyclists.

    How about this for an alternate sign on the hole: "Polite cyclists welcome, all others will be hassled."
    http://diabloscott.blogspot.com/

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    Quote Originally Posted by cthenn View Post
    Before I get heated again, let me preface this by saying the problem in Diablo CC is *probably* just a minority handful of vocal complainers that have no real problems in life.

    But...today, I did the NG-SG loop from my house, and I passed through the "hole in the wall" into Diablo CC. It appears someone has erected signs that say "trespassing forbidden, except for Diablo CC residents" or words to that effect. And one of the houses had a sign in the front yard saying something like "cyclists, obey the law and respect our community". Also, I have a buddy who works for the County, and he's told me these people call all the time, trying to get a sign erected saying "residents only, no cyclists". These people are so cheap with their millions, they can't even foot the bill for a sign or two! They are private roads, I get it, but I just don't understand all the hate for cyclists who simply want to bypass an extremely DANGEROUS road and ride through the relative safety of side roads. I obey all the stop signs, and try to ride as far to the right as I can...in fact I'm extra sensitive in that area because I do know that the residents seem to despise cyclists.

    What I found hilarious was the vast number of landscaper trucks parked all over the roads, some of them not very well, and all these guys in the middle of the road with their loud-a$$ leafblowers. I guess it's ok for these guys to impede traffic and be all over the place making noise? I have nothing against these workers, but I find it funny that a bicyclist or two is such an incredible nuisance to these people, but trucks blocking the road and all this noise generated by lawn mowers and blowers is perfectly fine. I guess I understand...someone has to clean up after the 1%-ers. Lord knows these people aren't going to do any kind of manual labor themselves...make the poor serfs do it.

    I don't know what happened, but it seems like in the last few years, it's gotten very adversarial between cyclists and this community. I've been riding through there for 10 years or more and never heard of any problems like this until the last few years. I'm betting it has something to do with the Amgen Tour and the glut of cyclists who probably do clog the roads in there. In fact, I think they posted Sheriffs there last year to prevent people from riding through. I have no doubt one of these days very soon, it will com to a head with a road rage incident. Someone is going to get hurt, arrrested, or both. I just pray it's not me.

    The only solution I can see that may actually affect change is if cyclists do start riding more on Diablo Road, but "take the lane" in portions of it. Just ride 12 mph in the middle of the road... because some of these impatient drivers do some extremely dangerous passing on that road. I'm quite afraid every time I ride portions of that road. I wouldn't recommend people do this on solo rides, but if a group is riding together, just take the lane, for safety reasons. Enough complaints from the Blackhawk people who are inconvenienced may get these disinterested politicians moving toward creating a safe passage through there.

    Again, I understand, they are private roads, and only the residents want to be allowed into their perfect lily white neighborhood, not to be sullied by dirty low class cyclists. But give us a break, the alternative is a very dangerous stretch of Diablo Road that I don't think anyone likes riding. (And I KNOW drivers do not want us on there...) If they successfully kick every cyclist onto Diablo Rd, and someone dies because they were hit by a speeding car, these people would not care in the least. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if some of them took joy in it.

    So, I think what I'm going to do for now is only ride on the road that parallels Diablo Rd, then pop back out onto it right before the turn-off to Diablo Scenic. I'm going to stay away from the hole in the wall and keep to the outskirts. Maybe that'll keep me out of trouble...
    Quote Originally Posted by cthenn View Post
    Because they're all ******bags, that's why. Not rocket surgery.

    Also, it's not a backyard. It's a road that is plenty wide enough for bikes and cars. You don't care because you don't ride here. If they want the riff raff out, put up a gate and fence off the hole in the wall. That will solve everything, and I can go on grumbling to other people who don't give a flip.
    a) Sorry, I do ride there and
    b) "adversarial"...go figure.

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    Quote Originally Posted by c0lnago View Post
    I don't understand the debate...be respectful of the signs and locals have asked to respect the "no trespassing". Do it, respect the signs and respect the locals...personally I wouldn't want anyone crawling thru my backyard with a bike because it was convenient. *shrug*
    agreed, but I don't think that's what DiabloCC and the complaining residents are talking about. They simply don't want ppl passing though their halo'd grounds... I seriously doubt people are going on the private property, I think the signs are there hoping cyclist will think it's PP... and that's bad form.

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    Senior Member raqball's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by c0lnago View Post
    I don't understand the debate...be respectful of the signs and locals have asked to respect the "no trespassing". Do it, respect the signs and respect the locals...personally I wouldn't want anyone crawling thru my backyard with a bike because it was convenient. *shrug*
    Bingo!

    Is it really that hard to stop at a stop sign? Is it really that hard to waive or say hello to a nice resident? Is it really that hard to respect a community that you are cycling through?

    I doubt any of the cyclist that are acting like a pack of wild animals care.. All they care about is beating their buddies Strava time..

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    Quote Originally Posted by raqball View Post
    Bingo!

    Is it really that hard to stop at a stop sign? Is it really that hard to waive or say hello to a nice resident? Is it really that hard to respect a community that you are cycling through?

    I doubt any of the cyclist that are acting like a pack of wild animals care.. All they care about is beating their buddies Strava time..
    It's barely uphill... I don't think there is a strava segment.. I went through there last sunday on my way to the SG.... only seen one walker at the hole in the fence and said good morning and motioned for him to have the right of way.

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    i rode up the mountain today with a guy who is biking friends with a couple residents. he says they are telling him that it's just couple of chronically disgruntled owners that are never satisfied with anything that goes on in the community. they voice their complaints periodically. like a seventeen year locust hatch. much ado about nothing really, he says.

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    Crawlin' up, flyin' down bikingshearer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiabloCC View Post
    When passing through Diablo would you please obey the traffic laws and stop signs.
    This is an eminently reasonable request, in the DCC and elsewhere, and for both cyclists and car drivers. Rocket science this ain't. if we all do this, which is what we are all supposed to be doing in the first place, the finger-pointing and shouting at each other would simply disappear.

    Cue Rodney King ("Can't we all just get along?") and the chorus singing "Kumbaya."
    "I'm in shape -- round is a shape." Andy Rooney

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