Go Back  Bike Forums > Community Connections > Regional Discussions > Pacific Northwest
Reload this Page >

Riding across the top of a T intersection

Notices
Pacific Northwest Idaho | Oregon | Washington | Alaska

Riding across the top of a T intersection

Old 02-20-09, 03:18 PM
  #1  
Laid back bent rider
Thread Starter
 
unixpro's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Burien, WA
Posts: 1,134

Bikes: Bacchetta Giro 20

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Riding across the top of a T intersection

My regular commute takes me down Lake Washington Blvd. from Bellevue into Renton. During that ride, I pass across a number of T intersections, always going across the top of the T when heading South. I noticed something yesterday and this morning and was wondering if it meant anything.

The striping on the road on the side with the top of the T stops at the bike lane. That is, when riding north on the street, the stop line for the intersection goes all the way through the bike lane. Going south, it does not. Does this mean that I don't have to stop for those intersections?

I noticed the same thing going down Park, near the Boeing plant. The roads that are T intersections do not have stop lines into the bike lane.

This seems intentional. Thoughts?
unixpro is offline  
Old 02-20-09, 05:43 PM
  #2  
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 7
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
I've always assumed that when you're riding through the top of a T intersection on the shoulder/bike-lane, you don't have to stop because there's no intersecting traffic. But if you're riding in the lane or heading in the direction that crosses the intersecting street, you need to do whatever cars would be required to do.
amann1 is offline  
Old 02-20-09, 06:44 PM
  #3  
Center of the Universe
 
ngateguy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Everett, WA
Posts: 4,374

Bikes: Bianchi San Remo, Norvara Intrepid MTB , Softride Solo 700

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
There was an article in the Times a few weeks ago about bike laws. In Seattle you are required to stop at those intersections. You might want to check with the jurisdictions they are in since every one is different. Honestly it sounds like you can ride through them, with caution of course.
__________________
Matthew 6
ngateguy is offline  
Old 02-20-09, 06:58 PM
  #4  
Senior Member
 
dbikingman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Spokane/Tri-Cities WA
Posts: 1,387

Bikes: mountain bike, road bike

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
If there is a stop sign/light you are required to stop.
RCW 46.61.050

Obedience to and required traffic control devices.


(1) The driver of any vehicle, every bicyclist, and every pedestrian shall obey the instructions of any official traffic control device applicable thereto placed in accordance with the provisions of this chapter,...
dbikingman is offline  
Old 02-21-09, 12:12 AM
  #5  
Snakebite
 
gritface's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Bothell, WA
Posts: 92

Bikes: Gary Fisher HT, Trek 5200

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
This seems to be common. I've noticed the same thing. I guess you need to ask what would happen in a cycling only scenario.

Would you stop if the light was green for a cyclist coming from your left? The traffic control device would give them ROW.
gritface is offline  
Old 02-21-09, 10:12 AM
  #6  
Laid back bent rider
Thread Starter
 
unixpro's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Burien, WA
Posts: 1,134

Bikes: Bacchetta Giro 20

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
You raise a good point, gritface. I hadn't thought of that.

The RCW is the fallback law for the state. It can, and often is, overridden by local jurisdictions. See the laws about riding on the sidewalk within Seattle city limits, for example.
unixpro is offline  
Old 02-21-09, 11:42 AM
  #7  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 200
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
I'd be worried about people making wide left turns from the other side of the "T" into the bike lane not expecting you to be there. It does sound like you might be able to carefully roll through though if there aren't any cars.
mp123 is offline  
Old 03-30-09, 11:40 AM
  #8  
Eternal n00b
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Spokane WA
Posts: 914

Bikes: Giant OCR3, Marin Mount Vision, '94 Bontrager Racelite, Mirraco Blink

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time in 1 Post
as long as it's legal (and safe) where you are, I'd roll up onto the sidewalk before the intersection and back down onto the road after it. YMMV
keisatsu is offline  
Old 03-30-09, 06:42 PM
  #9  
Lanky Lass
 
East Hill's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Take a deep breath, and ask--What would Sheldon do?
Posts: 21,434

Bikes: Nishiki Nut! International, Pro, Olympic 12, Sport mixte, and others too numerous to mention.

Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5 Post(s)
Liked 6 Times in 6 Posts
Originally Posted by unixpro
My regular commute takes me down Lake Washington Blvd. from Bellevue into Renton. During that ride, I pass across a number of T intersections, always going across the top of the T when heading South. I noticed something yesterday and this morning and was wondering if it meant anything.

The striping on the road on the side with the top of the T stops at the bike lane. That is, when riding north on the street, the stop line for the intersection goes all the way through the bike lane. Going south, it does not. Does this mean that I don't have to stop for those intersections?

I noticed the same thing going down Park, near the Boeing plant. The roads that are T intersections do not have stop lines into the bike lane.

This seems intentional. Thoughts?

I've always been under the impression that those particular t-intersections do not require cyclists to stop. As you say, those lanes have been deliberately marked that way, in contrast to the markings of the bike lanes on the northbound side.

East Hill
__________________
___________________________________________________
TRY EMPATHY & HAVE LOVE IN YOUR HEART, PERHAPS I'LL SEE YOU ON THE ROAD...
East Hill is offline  
Old 03-30-09, 06:44 PM
  #10  
Lanky Lass
 
East Hill's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Take a deep breath, and ask--What would Sheldon do?
Posts: 21,434

Bikes: Nishiki Nut! International, Pro, Olympic 12, Sport mixte, and others too numerous to mention.

Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5 Post(s)
Liked 6 Times in 6 Posts
Originally Posted by keisatsu
as long as it's legal (and safe) where you are, I'd roll up onto the sidewalk before the intersection and back down onto the road after it. YMMV
Unixpro is riding in an area where there are no sidewalks, so that would not work very well.

East Hill
__________________
___________________________________________________
TRY EMPATHY & HAVE LOVE IN YOUR HEART, PERHAPS I'LL SEE YOU ON THE ROAD...
East Hill is offline  
Old 04-01-09, 12:09 PM
  #11  
Eternal n00b
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Spokane WA
Posts: 914

Bikes: Giant OCR3, Marin Mount Vision, '94 Bontrager Racelite, Mirraco Blink

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time in 1 Post
Ah, well that changes things then...
keisatsu is offline  
Old 04-01-09, 12:49 PM
  #12  
**** that
 
mattm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: CALI
Posts: 15,402
Mentioned: 151 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1099 Post(s)
Liked 104 Times in 30 Posts
perhaps they don't paint that area so it isn't slick for stopping cycles?

i would guess that since a bike must follow the same laws as a car when on the road, running this would be the same as a car running the stop sign. my $0.02..
__________________
cat 1.

my race videos
mattm is offline  
Old 04-01-09, 04:31 PM
  #13  
Lanky Lass
 
East Hill's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Take a deep breath, and ask--What would Sheldon do?
Posts: 21,434

Bikes: Nishiki Nut! International, Pro, Olympic 12, Sport mixte, and others too numerous to mention.

Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5 Post(s)
Liked 6 Times in 6 Posts
Originally Posted by mattm
perhaps they don't paint that area so it isn't slick for stopping cycles?

i would guess that since a bike must follow the same laws as a car when on the road, running this would be the same as a car running the stop sign. my $0.02..
I don't think so. There are a couple of spots on the southbound side which are indeed painted for cyclists to stop, but not at the T-intersections.

If you go to Google Earth and look at the intersection of Lake Wash Blvd and North 33rd in Renton, you will see an example of the markings. There is a definite stop mark on the northbound side, and a definite absence of such a stop mark on the southbound side.

I suppose the local authorities could let us know for sure...
__________________
___________________________________________________
TRY EMPATHY & HAVE LOVE IN YOUR HEART, PERHAPS I'LL SEE YOU ON THE ROAD...
East Hill is offline  
Old 04-01-09, 04:39 PM
  #14  
**** that
 
mattm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: CALI
Posts: 15,402
Mentioned: 151 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1099 Post(s)
Liked 104 Times in 30 Posts
Originally Posted by East Hill
I suppose the local authorities could let us know for sure...
all we need is for someone to try this in front of a cop, and see what happens...

then again, sometimes even LEOs don't know the (exact) law!
__________________
cat 1.

my race videos
mattm is offline  
Old 04-01-09, 05:14 PM
  #15  
Senior Member
 
VeloBusDriver's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 129

Bikes: Brompton

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by unixpro
The striping on the road on the side with the top of the T stops at the bike lane. That is, when riding north on the street, the stop line for the intersection goes all the way through the bike lane. Going south, it does not. Does this mean that I don't have to stop for those intersections?
I drive a bus through an intersection like this in Redmond. (Eastbound 520 offramp to West Lake Sammamish Parkway). The stop bar is definitely missing from the bike lane so I would also assume that the red light does not apply to that lane.

That said, I would urge you to be VERY careful. In the example I have given above, there are two left turn lanes. Most vehicles will be focusing on the turn itself as well as other cars in the turn - not the bicycle lane. If somebody doesn't maintain their lane in the lefthand left turn lane, it's very tempting for the vehicle in the righthand left turn lane, though stupid, to fade out to the bicycle lane to avoid a collision with the car to their left. There is also a blind spot there once you have entered the turn. I specifically look for bicyclists there but it's hard to keep the lane in sight while turning.

Legal? Possibly. Smart/safe? Maybe, when there are no vehicles in or about to enter the turn. If there are vehicles in the turn watch them carefully.
VeloBusDriver is offline  
Old 04-01-09, 07:26 PM
  #16  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Sunny Seattle
Posts: 59
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Bussbiker hit it dead on. My afternoon commute takes my on the top of a T on Greenlake, and I always blow through the light, as long as I dont end up with a car turing right next to me. I learned that lesson when I had to hop the curb in order to avoid getting squished by a school bus that wondered into the bike lane.
Nick C is offline  
Old 04-09-09, 10:05 PM
  #17  
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 7
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Typicaly the stop bar is painted from the fog stripe to the center line. At least thats the state standard. I would argue that since there are no traffic conflicts outside the fog line on the top of the t that stoping is not required, would a cop buy it? hmmm.
Rdem is offline  
Old 04-14-09, 12:36 AM
  #18  
French threaded
 
PDXaero's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Portland, OR.
Posts: 1,223

Bikes: many

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 4 Times in 4 Posts
I stop at Ts like that every day.
Last week I stopped and another cyclist rushed past me looking back and yelling "DON'T STOP" as if I had done something wrong.
While yelling back at me he came within 6 inches of his bars striking a woman crossing the street in the crosswalk, and he lurched sideways, wobbled into the curb, and went into the grass.

I "DIDN'T STOP" to see if he was alright as I passed him when the light turned green.
PDXaero is offline  

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service -

Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.