Dan333SP

So the recent shooting in South Carolina has stirred the pot regarding symbols of the confederacy in the south. Here in Richmond, a lot of people are "proud" that we were the capitol of the confederacy, and Monument Avenue features a number of statues to famous confederates like Stuart and Lee.

The 2015 UCI courses with the exception of the elite men's ITT course all include a stretch of this famous street, here's the road race course-

Road Circuit

There's a new push by activists in our city to have the courses re-routed to avoid this cobbled street and the symbolism of the statues-

Group wants Monument Ave. axed from upcoming Road World Champion - NBC12 - WWBT - Richmond, VA News On Your Side

Looks like it won't really amount to anything, but it got me wondering. Do you guys think the presence of these statues, which will surely feature in thousands of photos of pro cyclists racing down this street throughout the world cycling media, will harm the image of this event and this country?

Personally, I wish they weren't there in the first place, but re-routing the course doesn't seem like a solution to me. Thoughts?

Dan333SP

This is what it looks like, this is the Robert E Lee statue during the collegiate TTT last year-

roadwarrior

People need to lighten up.

Are they going to blow up Stone Mountain, in Georgia as well?

Leinster

I daresay not many outside of the US bar dedicated history buffs would recognise Lee or Stuart or anyone else, in the flesh or in statue form. So long as the whole course isn't decked out in the battle flag of the Northern Virginia Army, I don't think anyone outside of America will think any differently of those inside.

Cyclosaurus

Statues, monuments, etc. are one thing. The confederate flag has a special significance in our modern era. The reason for this is that when the Dixiecrats split off from the Democratic party around 1948 because they opposed desegregation, the confederate flag was resuscitated as a symbol of resistance to desegregation, anti-lynching, civil rights, etc. Virtually everyone waving that flag today are doing so because of that political legacy, and so it is clearly, unambiguously, and exclusively a symbol of racial oppression.

God help us if people stymied by activism against the confederate flag decide to pick another symbol (such as General Lee) to use as a substitute.

Giacomo 1 

I have been deeply troubled by all this talk about the Confederate Flag at a time when we should be celebrating the testimony of those beautiful Christians that were so quick to forgive the murdering terrorist. At this time, that is what we should be talking about. These wonderful martyrs aren't even buried yet, but we talk about this flag as if it is the most important issue arising from this heinous crime.

What has happened to this once great Christian land, that at one time was unafraid to talk openly of their Christian heritage? That openly spoke about God in the public square? That often and openly invoked God in speeches? These days, we can't even honor the loss of these great martyrs, and celebrate the great testimony of the survivors without interference of some ancillary issue, like this flag. I find it deplorable and deeply troubling. It is a terrible sign for our times, that at a time when ISIS, in the name of religion, is drowning, burning and cutting off the heads of people, that we should be showing the world that Christianity is love, not hatred, yet our media, our President and the national debate is silent on the good that God brings out of this tragedy.

There should be a discussion on the matter of this flag, but it should be at a more appropriate time. First we need to mourn this loss of beautiful life, and we need to celebrate the beauty of Christianity, which was once the glue that held our wonderful country together...

KingCat

If we get rid of all symbols then we get rid of racism and the world becomes a utopia........

BTW - The US civil war was a lot more about states rights than slavery.

jyl

Symbols are powerful. The Nazi swastika was powerful, and was co-opted by evil. The Confederate flag is powerful and, unfortunately, has been co-opted.

Lee's statue has not, to date, been co-opted.

Cyclosaurus

Oh please. The civil war was first, foremost, and almost completely about slavery. It's a cliched pseudo-smart thing to say that "the civil war was about states' rights, not slavery". The states' rights issues you refer to were about 1) whether slaveowners from slave states could take their slaves to free states and not lose their "property", and 2) the right to secede because their slave-based economic system was threatened. In other words, "states' rights" was just a way to create a rallying cry for pro-slavery forces.

Dan333SP

Christians can celebrate the beauty of Christianity, but given that this nation's secularism is enshrined in the constitution and federal law, I don't think it's a good idea to reference "this christian land" and encompass the nation as a whole with that language.

This. I was shocked when I moved to the South (ironically, from further south in Miami to Virginia) to hear how many people willingly and quickly downplay the role that slavery played in the war. You can talk around it as much as you want and pretend your great-great-great grandfather didn't own slaves, but the inescapable fact is that, were it not for slavery, the South would not have seceded and the war would not have occurred.

Anyway, good points on the sybolism of statues vs. the flag. I just hope our little group of nutters that parade around every Saturday carrying their dixie flags next to the Museum of Fine Arts decide to avoid the world championships.

This guy has been counter-protesting for a year or so now, kinda funny to see it in action when I ride past-

Confederate Flaggers Inspire Hip-Hop Counter Protest | News and Features | Style Weekly - Richmond, VA local news, arts, and events.

Leinster

You use the term "Martyrs." The victims in the AME church are only martyrs if they died for a cause. If no change comes about because of their deaths, then they're not martyrs, they're just statistics.

The flag is a side issue to the actual problems that led to the church shooting, but the reason the flag came up is that the people now defending the flag wouldn't let anyone talk about the actual problems that led to the church shooting, ie, cultural racism and freely available bang-bang sticks.

So this is the one time in America when, after a mass-shooting, instead of just shrugging, and saying "whaddya gonna do? We can't change the constitution or the culture or the law," people have been able to do something that they felt helped, if even only a little, in some small way. By taking down Confederate symbols from government buildings in America, maybe it will help get across to people the point that no, armed insurrection against the United States in defence of the right of certain people to keep certain other people as property is not cool.

DropBarFan

Interesting question. Robert E Lee was a slave-owner but on the whole a semi-reasonable type. Reportedly he considered secession as stupid. DC is visited by millions despite huge monuments to slave-owning Washington & Jefferson. Virginia, despite unfortunately being part of the Confederacy is nothing like the redneck deep South like NC/SC/Alabama. Virginia is genteel, Blacks & Whites get along & nobody sports Confederate flags on their pickups.

Been to Richmond many times for both pro bike races & NASCAR races. Police always polite & never interested in hassling visitors for cheap revenue. NBC News tried to manufacture an incident at NASCAR Martinsville Virginia track by parading around guys dressed up in "Muslim" clothing. Spectators ignored them & NBC was rather embarrassed.

I think Richmond is gonna be a great host city for Worlds. Big enough for adequate infrastructure & amenities but small enough so that locals will think it's a pretty big deal. In previous stage races like Tour DuPont, Richmond area folks turned out in big numbers. Schools on the route let the kids outside to cheer riders on.

Dan333SP

Generally, yes, but I've been harassed while out on country roads near RVA by my fair share of pickups with confederate flag stickers. There's also a long legacy of racism at the policy level in the city that has only recently started to improve-

Richmond's Unhealed History: Benjamin Campbell: 9780983826408: Amazon.com: Books

Read this a few years ago, very eye opening. The "urban renewal" that took place in the 50s and 60s, particularly the construction of the interstates and downtown expressway, destroyed huge swaths of traditionally black neighborhoods. I was involved in an Urban Planning masters program in the city and we surveyed all sorts of people, young and old, and the lingering tension between the races in this city remains, it's just not talked about very often.

DropBarFan

Sorry to hear about your getting harassed etc. Richmond by no means perfect but there's probably hostile and/or racist rednecks in most states. & Wash DC was notorious for "urban renewal" programs that black citizens aptly termed "Negro removal". & recent new DC baseball stadium wiped out a large amount of low-cost housing. Ironic that some Southern working-class whites look fondly on the Confederacy since slavery never benefited working-class whites: it undercut wages & delayed industrialization.

zonatandem

Will we remove G. Washington's picture off the $1 bill? He did own slaves.
Political correctness rears its ugly head . . .
Maybe like the Holocaust deniers, or the Obama birthers, we can now deny that the US Civil War ever happened.

sprince

Political correctness is a special kind of bigotry, both intolerant and hypocritical.

Leinster

Nobody's denying the Civil War ever happened. Some people do deny the root cause of it, though. The fact that Washington and Jefferson and any founding father who owned a few acres also owned slaves doesn't validate the actions of states who seceded from the Union 70 years later to try and carry on doing so.

DropBarFan

Politicians/military/etc not involved in some type of war rarely get statues unfortunately. Philly's pro race used to go past the art museum & it was wryly amusing to see that Philly's most popular tourist spot is the Rocky statue.

hokie cycler

A. The race routes will not be changed to avoid Monument Avenue.
B. The fact that Urban renewal and expressways impacted minority communities is not unique to Richmond.
C. Those monuments aren't going anywhere in our lifetime.
D. This thread is a bummer.
E. The third week in September is going to be FREAKING AWESOME!

Simmer down folks, it's a bike race.

Dan333SP

I wasn't saying that we have a unique legacy of urban renewal damaging minority communities, just citing our history in response to the idea that Richmond is a city of harmonious racial integration. It still has its problems like a lot of other places in the South was my point.


I also wasn't trying to be a bummer or say they should re-route, just seeing what people here think of the discussion that it started in our community. Seems that people generally don't care about the statues, which is a good thing given that they aren't going anywhere, like you said.

I am happy that they announced the University of Richmond roll out location for the road race, that means they'll finally pave some of those awful potholes on Three Chopt that I hit every few days.

DropBarFan

Yes, it's an exciting & unique opportunity to see the best pros (& amateurs) race. In the semi-annual Richmond NASCAR races the police do a great job at organizing the traffic with special lanes & directing traffic. Cycle races being downtown OTOH means that driving in vicinity of race routes might be quite impossible. But World's courses are always like that I guess. So prepare (even bikers) to do a lot of walking. At '74 Montreal many of the fans brought their bikes of course but most of us that wanted to circumnavigate the ~14 mile course had to walk most of the way. Some guys staying at the hostel got a little sore from the hike & said "Wow, walking is tough!", heh. Montreal cops were super-vigilant about letting peds/bikers on the course--the moto guys preceding the pack rode right next to the curb, aiming at spectators' feet to make 'em hop back on the curb.

hokie cycler

Word is the course will be fenced, at least that was the plan. I am not sure if that is still in the cards as that is a whole lotta fencing.

The layout of the course should be easy to circumnavigate by bike by riding on parallel streets. Just check out a map and make sure you are aware of which streets are one way. There will be at grade crossings throughout the courses.

DropBarFan

Both things good to hear. Richmond will have a lot of newbie spectators; even in Europe they have the troublesome "schlugs" & "schmenges" (Bobke-speak!). I once volunteered at a pro-am criterium as crossing guard, let some tubby matronly women cross the course but they walked so damn slow the field was rapidly approaching. I hollered to ladies to speed up but they had only one (slow) walking speed. Luckily they crossed over before field needed to brake.

sprince

Yes that's next: Atlanta NAACP chapter calls for removal of massive Confederate sculpture in public park | Fox News

merlinextraligh

It's one thing to fly the Confederate flag, which is cleary identified by many, and used by some, as a symbol of racial hatred.

It's another thing to try to rewrite history. To me, the monuments of Monument avenue are historically signifcant, for good and bad reasons, but not at equivalent to the Confederate flag flying over a statehouse

Richmond's done a lot to try to balance out its civil war heritage. The Museum of the Confederacy is now the American Civil War Museum.

All the Riverfront Canal Walk stuff and Tredegar museum has all been done to give a much more honest perspective to Richmond's place in Civil War and Revolutionary history. All that is just off the course near shockhoe bottom

There are enough positive images and messages there, that TV can do some backshots there, if they care about presenting a fair view of Richmond.

Or they can focus on just the monuments on Monument Avenue, find sone rednecks with Confederate Battle flags, and toss Richmond under the bus.

Personally, I don't think american civil war politics is a top of mind concern for the UCI.