Why African athletes haven't dominated our sport?
07-21-15, 08:30 AM
#101
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 8,515
Mentioned: 69 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3241 Post(s)
Liked 2,512 Times
in
1,510 Posts
Just look at salary figures in comparison to other sports...
uci pro tour - average: 287,000, minimum: 47,000
mlb - average: 4,000,000, minimum: 507,000
futbol - average: 7,000,000
nba - average: 5,000,000
nfl - average: 2,000,000
distance runner - per major win: 125,000+
pga - median: 628,000, average: 2,000,000
keirin - 100,000+ (self employed, little travel, w/ a very long career)
Not to be deterred, I picked something relatively obscure in my quest for a lower paying sport. Success!...
pba (professional bowling) - average: 270,000
And if you only look at the average income for a pro cyclist in Africa (or the US), the better question is why anyone would go into that line of work in the first place.
uci pro tour - average: 287,000, minimum: 47,000
mlb - average: 4,000,000, minimum: 507,000
futbol - average: 7,000,000
nba - average: 5,000,000
nfl - average: 2,000,000
distance runner - per major win: 125,000+
pga - median: 628,000, average: 2,000,000
keirin - 100,000+ (self employed, little travel, w/ a very long career)
Not to be deterred, I picked something relatively obscure in my quest for a lower paying sport. Success!...
pba (professional bowling) - average: 270,000
And if you only look at the average income for a pro cyclist in Africa (or the US), the better question is why anyone would go into that line of work in the first place.
Winner, winner chicken dinner! If you dig up the stats for the second and third tier football(american/NFL) baseball, basketball, futball, and golf leagues/tours/associations they probably pay better as well.
Last edited by seypat; 07-21-15 at 08:34 AM.
07-21-15, 08:48 AM
#102
Senior Member
Not too sure I buy the money argument, but I have no way to show the opposite. It just strikes me as odd to think that a ten years old (most who are at the top level of their sport started young) chooses which sport to play based on which one is more likely to make him an ultra millionaire as opposed to a mere millionaire when he grows up. I think most kids play whatever their friends are playing, or their parents make them play, hence the 'access' argument.
EDIT: Exposure is a huge one too. They talk about football and basketball all day on TV, so players of those sports become the celebrities and kids want to emulate them. Who has heard of Alberto Contador outside of people who are already cycling fans?
EDIT: Exposure is a huge one too. They talk about football and basketball all day on TV, so players of those sports become the celebrities and kids want to emulate them. Who has heard of Alberto Contador outside of people who are already cycling fans?
Last edited by PepeM; 07-21-15 at 08:53 AM.
07-21-15, 09:14 AM
#103
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Virginia
Posts: 888
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 71 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
If you consider access, then it can't be ignored that at the development level pro cycling is a closed system with a single point of entry, offering zero financial compensation between the entry and pro levels. So unlike other sports, even an insanely gifted athlete may be effectively barred from entry. This is very different from a marathon runner who can simply show up with shoes and shorts, qualify with a few races and be free to compete at any level.
07-21-15, 09:32 AM
#104
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 510
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 14 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 15 Times
in
2 Posts
In the USA there doesn't seem to be support for youth cycling. A few months ago I searched for USA Cycling clubs with a youth division I think there were around 50 nationwide. That is not very much support these kids are probably getting involved with swimming, track, cross country or even triathlons. Most of our kids have bikes but I don't think cycling even registers as a sport.
I looked up my state OH there was one club that had a youth cycling division. For comparison there were 8 youth fencing clubs in OH.
I looked up my state OH there was one club that had a youth cycling division. For comparison there were 8 youth fencing clubs in OH.
07-21-15, 12:08 PM
#105
Not actually Tmonk
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: San Diego, CA
Posts: 14,126
Bikes: road, track, mtb
Mentioned: 140 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2632 Post(s)
Liked 3,148 Times
in
1,657 Posts
I agree that cycling (as sport) doesn't have enough support or exposure for youth in this country.
Fortunately, there seems to be increasing resources for it at the collegiate level. When I was in college (2005-2010), we were able to race all around Northern California and the Bay Area for little to no cost outside food. The college provided rental vans, and paid for hotel and race entry. I was even able to upgrade to cat4 without doing one cat5 race - my 10 races upgrade came from 100% collegiate experience.
Fortunately, there seems to be increasing resources for it at the collegiate level. When I was in college (2005-2010), we were able to race all around Northern California and the Bay Area for little to no cost outside food. The college provided rental vans, and paid for hotel and race entry. I was even able to upgrade to cat4 without doing one cat5 race - my 10 races upgrade came from 100% collegiate experience.
__________________
"Your beauty is an aeroplane;
so high, my heart cannot bear the strain." -A.C. Jobim, Triste
"Your beauty is an aeroplane;
so high, my heart cannot bear the strain." -A.C. Jobim, Triste
07-21-15, 02:58 PM
#106
Voice of the Industry
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 12,572
Mentioned: 19 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1188 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 8 Times
in
8 Posts
I will bet anybody on the forum a large sum of money that the next gold medal winner in the 100m dash in the next Olympics will not be white, will not be Asian, will not be Egyptian or Spanish, but will be black. If anybody wants to take that bet, please PM me. Are there some incredibly fast white sprinters from Russia? Absolutely. Incredibly fast but a couple of ticks behind the fastest black guys on the planet...like clockwork. We also haven't talked about the Serena Williams the female tennis player...the greatest female ever to play tennis. She dominates tennis because of her superior genetics. She has the greatest serve of any female tennis player who has ever lived. She has the capacity to routinely pump in 125 mph serves when even a hard serving Russian can hit 110mph. Serena's service speed rivals most men on the tour. She has superior foot speed as well. Her musculature rivals that of a muscular man and a source of her power. Her dominance is because of her superior genetics in spite of lack of access so many write about as the source of any performance inequity.
Will see what cycling brings in ensuing decades of greater access but until a dominant athlete from any given ethnicity dominates and proves a genetic advantage, its all speculation. Right now white guys dominate cycling...with an occasional Spanish guy.
Last edited by Campag4life; 07-21-15 at 03:10 PM.
07-21-15, 04:20 PM
#107
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Canada
Posts: 1,561
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 22 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 3 Times
in
2 Posts
Blacks have superior quick twitch. This has been demonstrated in track and field repeatledy...and why blacks dominate in basketball... The power of and slow twitch attributes of fair skinned athletes lines up with cycling. Gears and bicycles meld well with the physical attributes of fair skinned people and the dominance of quick twitch is diminished.
07-21-15, 04:52 PM
#108
Not actually Tmonk
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: San Diego, CA
Posts: 14,126
Bikes: road, track, mtb
Mentioned: 140 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2632 Post(s)
Liked 3,148 Times
in
1,657 Posts
I was gonna make that same point, but I thought it would be lost...
If people of African descent can excel at at marathons, then they should also excel at professional road cycling, given that success in both sports is defined (physiologically) almost entirely by slow-twitch muscle efficiency.
This of course ignores any socioeconomic arguments, which are what I feel are the real reasons why pro cycling is predominantly "white".
If people of African descent can excel at at marathons, then they should also excel at professional road cycling, given that success in both sports is defined (physiologically) almost entirely by slow-twitch muscle efficiency.
This of course ignores any socioeconomic arguments, which are what I feel are the real reasons why pro cycling is predominantly "white".
__________________
"Your beauty is an aeroplane;
so high, my heart cannot bear the strain." -A.C. Jobim, Triste
"Your beauty is an aeroplane;
so high, my heart cannot bear the strain." -A.C. Jobim, Triste
07-21-15, 04:54 PM
#109
Not actually Tmonk
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: San Diego, CA
Posts: 14,126
Bikes: road, track, mtb
Mentioned: 140 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2632 Post(s)
Liked 3,148 Times
in
1,657 Posts
For the sake of yourself, other users on the forum, and conversation, I think you should keep your posts shorter. There is so much to argue with in your posts - people don't often know where to begin. Conciseness = your friend.
__________________
"Your beauty is an aeroplane;
so high, my heart cannot bear the strain." -A.C. Jobim, Triste
"Your beauty is an aeroplane;
so high, my heart cannot bear the strain." -A.C. Jobim, Triste
Last edited by BillyD; 07-23-15 at 05:23 AM.
07-21-15, 05:14 PM
#110
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Canada
Posts: 1,561
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 22 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 3 Times
in
2 Posts
Got it Campag, blacks have superior fast twitch AND superior slow twitch muscles. So I'll disregard your initial point...
And I'll try and ignore the last sentence you made there, where you explained it was the slow twitch muscles of the "fair skinned athletes" that enabled them to excel at cycling... although blacks have superior slow twitch muscles... and now on top of that blacks also have superior fatigue resistance which would be absolutely useless in a race like the TdF. I think I've got it now. And you're still standing by that quote by Jimmy the Greek... all makes sense to me.
Blacks have superior quick twitch. This has been demonstrated in track and field repeatledy...and why blacks dominate in basketball... The power of and slow twitch attributes of fair skinned athletes lines up with cycling. Gears and bicycles meld well with the physical attributes of fair skinned people and the dominance of quick twitch is diminished.
07-21-15, 05:26 PM
#111
Senior Member
It is not the length, it is the nonsense arguments.
07-21-15, 05:42 PM
#112
pan y agua
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Jacksonville
Posts: 31,302
Bikes: Willier Zero 7; Merlin Extralight; Calfee Dragonfly tandem, Calfee Adventure tandem; Cervelo P2; Motebecane Ti Fly 29er; Motebecanne Phantom Cross; Schwinn Paramount Track bike
Mentioned: 17 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1447 Post(s)
Liked 724 Times
in
371 Posts
And you speak to the masses here that believe the same nonsense. Jimmy the Greek was fired for speaking the truth...the public still can't accept...genetic differences for given groups of people based upon where their ancestors evolving over tens of thousands of years. Environment causes cell mutation which affects physiology and therefore athletic performance. Darwin figured it out but he was smart. To deny this means you have your head in the sand. Its kind of like, why is it blacks consistently win the 100m dash in the Olympics? Not enough white people run? Or white people are too rich to run? Or white people don't like to run?...they would rather drive? Blacks have survived over centuries in Africa by running. The fastest runner does the best to perpetuate the species. Another example? There will never be a white Dr. Jay or Jordan. Ever. Never has and never will be. Jimmy the Greek saw this as a student of sport but the masses here can't see it. They believe it has to do with money or opportunity...lol....with the millions of white and black kids that play basketball. Hell, movies have been written about it....white men can't jump. Its obvious. There will never be a white Bo Jackson either. Ever. And probably never a white Mike Tyson either. Can white people power lift? Oh yeah. White people dominate the power sports in fact.
So back to the original question...how about bike riding? Because the attributes that create a superior jumper...which btw has been measured in the NBA comparing blacks and whites...this quality does not make for a superior bike rider. Is access an element? Sure but by now, if there were a dominant trait...say like there is in basketball where the 75% of the NBA is black, you would see a lot more black cyclists.
How about ice hockey? How about the propensity of blacks to tolerate cold weather? Is this a trait or quality or even choice?...since for thousands of years black people evolved near the equator and 100 degree temps with copious sun exposure which mutated their skin pigment for greater tolerance to the sun?
So to deny that there aren't differences is ridiculous. The question is...how do those differences line up with a given sport that has different demands. Michael Jordan was a crappy baseball player. Why didn't the skills that he had to dominate basketball not transfer to baseball? There is a reason why white people have a much greater presence in baseball than basketball and it has nothing to do with opportunity....baseball is a game with a stick and a ball that is played in sand lots throughout the world. No you won't see blacks dominate cycling any time soon. The simple fact is the physical differences they possess that manifest in track and field for example don't transfer...just like they don't for swimming. In fact with greater percentage of body fat statistically white people based upon evolution in a cold climate, white people may have superior physiology in the water when it comes to floatation, speed and cold temperature tolerance. There are physical differences between different people depending on their genetics based upon environment. To deny this is to deny the truth.
So back to the original question...how about bike riding? Because the attributes that create a superior jumper...which btw has been measured in the NBA comparing blacks and whites...this quality does not make for a superior bike rider. Is access an element? Sure but by now, if there were a dominant trait...say like there is in basketball where the 75% of the NBA is black, you would see a lot more black cyclists.
How about ice hockey? How about the propensity of blacks to tolerate cold weather? Is this a trait or quality or even choice?...since for thousands of years black people evolved near the equator and 100 degree temps with copious sun exposure which mutated their skin pigment for greater tolerance to the sun?
So to deny that there aren't differences is ridiculous. The question is...how do those differences line up with a given sport that has different demands. Michael Jordan was a crappy baseball player. Why didn't the skills that he had to dominate basketball not transfer to baseball? There is a reason why white people have a much greater presence in baseball than basketball and it has nothing to do with opportunity....baseball is a game with a stick and a ball that is played in sand lots throughout the world. No you won't see blacks dominate cycling any time soon. The simple fact is the physical differences they possess that manifest in track and field for example don't transfer...just like they don't for swimming. In fact with greater percentage of body fat statistically white people based upon evolution in a cold climate, white people may have superior physiology in the water when it comes to floatation, speed and cold temperature tolerance. There are physical differences between different people depending on their genetics based upon environment. To deny this is to deny the truth.
Of course not, but a lot more African American kids play basketball than baseball than they used to.
__________________
You could fall off a cliff and die.
You could get lost and die.
You could hit a tree and die.
OR YOU COULD STAY HOME AND FALL OFF THE COUCH AND DIE.
You could fall off a cliff and die.
You could get lost and die.
You could hit a tree and die.
OR YOU COULD STAY HOME AND FALL OFF THE COUCH AND DIE.
07-21-15, 05:47 PM
#113
pan y agua
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Jacksonville
Posts: 31,302
Bikes: Willier Zero 7; Merlin Extralight; Calfee Dragonfly tandem, Calfee Adventure tandem; Cervelo P2; Motebecane Ti Fly 29er; Motebecanne Phantom Cross; Schwinn Paramount Track bike
Mentioned: 17 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1447 Post(s)
Liked 724 Times
in
371 Posts
I will be honest, I like cycling, but I think team sports are more fun. If I could, I would still be headed to the playgrounds for pick up basketball games on a Saturday morning instead of taking a bike ride. I did my 2nd tri about a month ago. After the race friends were asking "wasn't that great?" I'm thinking "no that was lame! No excitement whatsoever. Super boring. I'd much rather be playing basketball or golf."
And,..............the basketball games at the parks are free. I can't say the same about golf.
And,..............the basketball games at the parks are free. I can't say the same about golf.
It is drastically different from doing a tri.
__________________
You could fall off a cliff and die.
You could get lost and die.
You could hit a tree and die.
OR YOU COULD STAY HOME AND FALL OFF THE COUCH AND DIE.
You could fall off a cliff and die.
You could get lost and die.
You could hit a tree and die.
OR YOU COULD STAY HOME AND FALL OFF THE COUCH AND DIE.
07-21-15, 06:05 PM
#114
Voice of the Industry
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 12,572
Mentioned: 19 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1188 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 8 Times
in
8 Posts
Your baseball argument totally ignores the statistics I posted, for a 30 year period post Jackie Robinson, African Americans made up 40% of Major League Baseball. It's now below 8%. Did African American's baseball genes devolve?
Of course not, but a lot more African American kids play basketball than baseball than they used to.
Of course not, but a lot more African American kids play basketball than baseball than they used to.
And...other groups like Latinos and of course whites play a lot of baseball. An even playing field forgive the pun...no advantage for blacks...or at least eclipsed by other factors.
07-21-15, 06:08 PM
#115
Voice of the Industry
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 12,572
Mentioned: 19 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1188 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 8 Times
in
8 Posts
Got it Campag, blacks have superior fast twitch AND superior slow twitch muscles. So I'll disregard your initial point...
And I'll try and ignore the last sentence you made there, where you explained it was the slow twitch muscles of the "fair skinned athletes" that enabled them to excel at cycling... although blacks have superior slow twitch muscles... and now on top of that blacks also have superior fatigue resistance which would be absolutely useless in a race like the TdF. I think I've got it now. And you're still standing by that quote by Jimmy the Greek... all makes sense to me.
And I'll try and ignore the last sentence you made there, where you explained it was the slow twitch muscles of the "fair skinned athletes" that enabled them to excel at cycling... although blacks have superior slow twitch muscles... and now on top of that blacks also have superior fatigue resistance which would be absolutely useless in a race like the TdF. I think I've got it now. And you're still standing by that quote by Jimmy the Greek... all makes sense to me.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andr%C3%A9_Greipel
Last edited by Campag4life; 07-21-15 at 06:12 PM.
07-21-15, 06:45 PM
#118
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 8,515
Mentioned: 69 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3241 Post(s)
Liked 2,512 Times
in
1,510 Posts
You really need to drop the "no white basketball players with great jumping ability" argument. It just makes you look like a fool. You must not have watched much basketball through the years! I haven't watched the NBA in about 15 years, but there were plenty of white "high flyers" before that. Off the top of my head I can think of Bobby Jones, "Thunder" Dan Majerle, Rex Chapman, Bob Sura and Brent Barry to name a few. Then there is Tom Chambers. He is widely considered to be one of, if not the best NBA dunker of all time.
Last edited by BillyD; 07-23-15 at 05:27 AM.
07-21-15, 07:08 PM
#119
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Virginia
Posts: 888
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 71 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
07-21-15, 09:55 PM
#120
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: location location
Posts: 3,035
Bikes: MBK Super Mirage 1991, CAAD10, Yuba Mundo Lux, and a Cannondale Criterium Single Speed
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 344 Post(s)
Liked 297 Times
in
207 Posts
I will bet anybody on the forum a large sum of money that the next gold medal winner in the 100m dash in the next Olympics will not be white, will not be Asian, will not be Egyptian or Spanish, but will be black. If anybody wants to take that bet, please PM me. Are there some incredibly fast white sprinters from Russia? Absolutely. Incredibly fast but a couple of ticks behind the fastest black guys on the planet...like clockwork. We also haven't talked about the Serena Williams the female tennis player...the greatest female ever to play tennis. She dominates tennis because of her superior genetics. She has the greatest serve of any female tennis player who has ever lived. She has the capacity to routinely pump in 125 mph serves when even a hard serving Russian can hit 110mph. Serena's service speed rivals most men on the tour. She has superior foot speed as well. Her musculature rivals that of a muscular man and a source of her power. Her dominance is because of her superior genetics in spite of lack of access so many write about as the source of any performance inequity.
Further, I'll take your bet on the winner of the 100m not being black if you take my double-or-nothing counter-bet that, whatever the colour of his skin, the next Olympic 100m winner will not have been born on the continent of Africa. Which would tend to counter your argument that genetics trumps access.
Fact is, the likes of Kevin Reza and Daniel Teklahaiminot (and "Algerian" Nacer Bouhanni among others) do prove that there's no genetic reason Africans can't compete at the highest level of cycling. So to work out why there aren't more of them competing and winning at the highest level, you have to look at more reasons than just genetics.
07-21-15, 09:57 PM
#121
Walmart bike rider
Like I said, cycling is a privileged sport, meaning people with money are usually the one's who are going to be at the top. It's much like golf, lacrosse, and swimming. And I don't think the same muscles and strategy is used for a marathon vs a cycling race, running up a hill is not the same as cycling up a hill and in running, there is no coasting going down a hill in running. There is no such thing as a peloton in running. Cycling and Running are as different as running and swimming. That's why I think the argument of why East Africans are so good at running therefore should be good at cycling is not valid.
I do think there are physical differences between different groups of people, asians, whites, blacks, Indians, etc are not built the same. All of them have differences, strengths and weaknesses when it comes to physical sports. It is what it is.
I do think there are physical differences between different groups of people, asians, whites, blacks, Indians, etc are not built the same. All of them have differences, strengths and weaknesses when it comes to physical sports. It is what it is.
07-21-15, 10:42 PM
#122
Not actually Tmonk
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: San Diego, CA
Posts: 14,126
Bikes: road, track, mtb
Mentioned: 140 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2632 Post(s)
Liked 3,148 Times
in
1,657 Posts
If you read my post carefully, I didn't say anything about what you have to say being right or wrong, just that you say too much at once. Like everyone else here, what you post is subject to criticism. It might behoove you to say a little less.
__________________
"Your beauty is an aeroplane;
so high, my heart cannot bear the strain." -A.C. Jobim, Triste
"Your beauty is an aeroplane;
so high, my heart cannot bear the strain." -A.C. Jobim, Triste
07-22-15, 12:30 AM
#123
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Portland OR
Posts: 7,639
Bikes: 61 Bianchi Specialissima 71 Peugeot G50 7? P'geot PX10 74 Raleigh GranSport 75 P'geot UO8 78? Raleigh Team Pro 82 P'geot PSV 86 P'geot PX 91 Bridgestone MB0 92 B'stone XO1 97 Rans VRex 92 Cannondale R1000 94 B'stone MB5 97 Vitus 997
Mentioned: 146 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 392 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 49 Times
in
31 Posts
Maybe Campag4Life could pick one position to stick with, and stop changing his theory every few posts.
07-22-15, 05:54 AM
#125
I'm doing it wrong.
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 4,875
Bikes: Rivendell Appaloosa, Rivendell Frank Jones Sr., Trek Fuel EX9, Kona Jake the Snake CR, Niner Sir9
Mentioned: 85 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 9742 Post(s)
Liked 2,812 Times
in
1,664 Posts