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Villumsen screws over her team and sponsors for WC bands

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Old 09-24-15, 05:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Marcus_Ti
You're making a ton of assumptions as well. For example you're presuming the team's manager is not spinning a story for the benefit of covering his butt

Here's a story far more believable:
Racer: "Boss, the team's bike is slowing me down...I can go faster on the NZ federation bike"
Boss: "You can use whichever bike you want as allowed by UCI rules...but I'll deny we had this conversation later, and odds are I'll have to blame you publicly for ire from sponsors"
Racer: "....."

Boss: "see you at the race! "


How do you practice enough on a machine to know it is faster and not have your team and team manager not knowing? I mean frigging come on. It is called playing plausible deniability.
I could very well see that happening. Also, correct me if I am wrong, but for the ITT, she was racing for New Zealand, not UHC, does she still have to ride her UHC (Which is a united states sponsor/team) bike and not Team NZ sponsors? I mean, Team USA has different sponsors that some of the racers professional teams.

Also to answer someone's question about rebranding, yes, teams do that. A few years ago Cav wore rebranded Nike Cycling shoes, they were not Nikes but they had the logo on them. Also some riders can use non sponsor equipment like pedals, saddles, etc.
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Old 09-24-15, 06:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Dan333SP
To make a back to back comparison between the (Trek?) and Willier, she probably had both in a windtunnel at some point in NZ. This whole thing had a lot of planning involved.

Obviously it worked, because the difference was just 2.5 seconds at the end of the event and I'm sure someone could put together some convincing data that being an inch or whatever lower on the unbranded bike was enough to win her the race.
I was working the course with one a guy who is friends with her. He said the wind tunnel testing showed the Willier 90 seconds slower for the race distance. The team knew about it in advance and threatened to fire her. She rode the race knowing she could get canned.
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Old 09-24-15, 07:36 PM
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Originally Posted by seypat
Back to Villumsen, her reputation is going to take a hit she might not be able to recover from.
Whatever hit her reputation might take will be more than made up from being the world champion.

Originally Posted by Marcus_Ti
You're making a ton of assumptions as well. For example you're presuming the team's manager is not spinning a story for the benefit of covering his butt

Here's a story far more believable:
Racer: "Boss, the team's bike is slowing me down...I can go faster on the NZ federation bike"
Boss: "You can use whichever bike you want as allowed by UCI rules...but I'll deny we had this conversation later, and odds are I'll have to blame you publicly for ire from sponsors"
Racer: "....."

Boss: "see you at the race! "


How do you practice enough on a machine to know it is faster and not have your team and team manager not knowing? I mean frigging come on. It is called playing plausible deniability.
I think (just a guess, obviously I have no facts at all to back this up) that something like that happened. Or maybe they didn't really give her consent, but I'm sure they knew. This whole 'we were completely caught off-guard' doesn't sound very likely.
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Old 09-25-15, 04:23 PM
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Originally Posted by PepeM
Whatever hit her reputation might take will be more than made up from being the world champion.



I think (just a guess, obviously I have no facts at all to back this up) that something like that happened. Or maybe they didn't really give her consent, but I'm sure they knew. This whole 'we were completely caught off-guard' doesn't sound very likely.
All of this. If she'd finished 10th, she might've got herself fired, but a rainbow jersey would tend to mitigate a lot of sins.

And I'm sure her decision was made well before the last minute, and UHC people knew well before the last minute. I guess the real question is, if it was as simple as getting her body position an inch lower, why had Wilier not done something about it sooner? She's been riding for UHC through all of 2015 and, between her, the team and the bike supplier, they're only now getting around to addressing the fact that her old bike was faster on a 30km TT course?
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Old 09-25-15, 04:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Leinster
All of this. If she'd finished 10th, she might've got herself fired, but a rainbow jersey would tend to mitigate a lot of sins.

And I'm sure her decision was made well before the last minute, and UHC people knew well before the last minute. I guess the real question is, if it was as simple as getting her body position an inch lower, why had Wilier not done something about it sooner? She's been riding for UHC through all of 2015 and, between her, the team and the bike supplier, they're only now getting around to addressing the fact that her old bike was faster on a 30km TT course?
Because being a female professional...she gets a bike a kit and that is about it. Unlike Sagan or Cav that can just ask for a different bike and have it appear.

There's a reason why the budget needed to put on a top-notch women's team is at most 1/10 or 1/20 what a top men's team budget is...because the women are lucky to get a road bike and a TT bike and clothes to wear from their team. Simply getting a salary, you have to be the top of the top-and even then said salary is quite punk.
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Old 09-25-15, 04:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Leinster
All of this. If she'd finished 10th, she might've got herself fired, but a rainbow jersey would tend to mitigate a lot of sins.

And I'm sure her decision was made well before the last minute, and UHC people knew well before the last minute. I guess the real question is, if it was as simple as getting her body position an inch lower, why had Wilier not done something about it sooner? She's been riding for UHC through all of 2015 and, between her, the team and the bike supplier, they're only now getting around to addressing the fact that her old bike was faster on a 30km TT course?
Maybe the answer is that the fit issue is not the truth.
Noticed that CN just posted a follow up op-ed piece by a female cyclist/reporter with an obvious bias. Basically blaming Wilier, and saying Villumsen had no real choice because of it.
I'm surprised CN put that up without any further reporting on the story.

I'm usually all for the cyclist, but something is fishy about this whole thing.

I don't know why Wilier would keep sponsoring them. They are made out to be a)non-responsive to female riders -even though they are sponsoring a female squad b)non-competitive tt bike not worthy of the top level c) non-responsive to top sponsored athletes. d)don't make bikes that fit female cyclists.
The team they are sponsoring is either lying to them and making them the fool, or have athletes willing to take the money, but diss the product.

If that's how sponsors are represented within cycling, a lot better to just keep your good name and sponsor gran fondos or other cycling events and individual athletes outside of the pro tour.

Wilier actually enjoys a high brand reputation but all it takes is perception that your tt bike is non competitive, and consumers will skip it. That's what sponsorship is for- to up the brand perception.

That's how Trek sold crappy bikes for so long. When the Lance Dopestrong era ended, they actually started developing good bikes.

Last edited by cruiserhead; 09-25-15 at 04:39 PM.
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Old 09-25-15, 04:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Marcus_Ti
Because being a female professional...she gets a bike a kit and that is about it. Unlike Sagan or Cav that can just ask for a different bike and have it appear.

There's a reason why the budget needed to put on a top-notch women's team is at most 1/10 or 1/20 what a top men's team budget is...because the women are lucky to get a road bike and a TT bike and clothes to wear from their team. Simply getting a salary, you have to be the top of the top-and even then said salary is quite punk.
Is she asking for a custom lay-up and a unique frame to her specifications, or just to get her fit dialled in right? It really doesn't sound like too much to ask to get fit right. They have a Worlds contender on their books for a whole year and they couldn't get her to a wind tunnel?


Cav is an interesting comparison; wasn't he spotted riding his old Venge for some stages at the Tour because he didn't like the integrated brake that Spesh put on the new version?
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Old 09-25-15, 05:10 PM
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Perhaps she should have discussed this with the team beforehand, but honestly, if it were me and it meant becoming the WC and getting fired vs. not getting the WC, I would risk getting fired. Becoming WC will take her further and before long this business about her riding the Trek will be all but forgotten.
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Old 09-25-15, 05:28 PM
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She won . . . fair and square!
If she had not won, would it have been mentioned?
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Old 09-25-15, 05:46 PM
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Another take. It's all good. She won the big prize. Wilier got far more notice than it would have had she not made the switch and we all know that any publicity, even bad publicity, is good. (And a 2 cm diff in bar height? She won by 2.5 seconds. Imaging 5th place in a long TT with a bar 2 cm too high isn't a very big stretch for me. And 5th place? Who's even going to look at her bike?)

And - as uncomfortable as this is for Wilier, it puts them on the women's stage. Front and center. They have to opportunity to make some sweet and "right" women's bikes then come to the world and say "look what we've now got" and because of this, people will. Nothing Villumsen could have done riding her sponsor's bike could possibly have gotten them this attention. Nothing.

Willier - use this spotlight on you to your advantage and women's benefit. It's now on you.

Ben
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Old 09-25-15, 06:23 PM
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Originally Posted by cruiserhead
Dude, you are totally missing the entire problem as well as making a lot of assumptions on what her situation is.
Dude, you are also missing the point. Those defending her are also using speculation and making assumptions unquestioningly accepting her side's position. Healthy skepticism is what's called for. The bottom line is which team will hire her when she wants to move? Anyone considering it will ensure she's toast if she ever tries it again. (Read 'breaking the terms of a contract and huge lawsuits.') She has to know that as well...or at least should think about it. Could wind up being a short term gain.

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Old 09-25-15, 06:40 PM
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The biggest mistake here was making a big deal about it. What will I recall about this? Wilier wasn't the right bike to win worlds. UHC threatened to fire the woman who won Worlds. Those aren't positive memories.

On the other hand, Villumsen conquered despite bureaucrats and company men who put dollars before dreams.

Many world champs have used non-sponsor equipment. Big deal. It's certainly been okay for men.

Except for this incident, when I saw Villumsen in the future riding Wilier bikes I'd think that's the bike of a world champion. Now I will definitely remember that it is not the bike of a world champion.
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Old 09-25-15, 08:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Athens80
The biggest mistake here was making a big deal about it. What will I recall about this? Wilier wasn't the right bike to win worlds. UHC threatened to fire the woman who won Worlds. Those aren't positive memories.

On the other hand, Villumsen conquered despite bureaucrats and company men who put dollars before dreams.

Many world champs have used non-sponsor equipment. Big deal. It's certainly been okay for men.

Except for this incident, when I saw Villumsen in the future riding Wilier bikes I'd think that's the bike of a world champion. Now I will definitely remember that it is not the bike of a world champion.
good summary
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Old 09-25-15, 08:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Rich Gibson
The bottom line is which team will hire her when she wants to move?
Who would want to hire a world champion? Any team. There is a reason she is not fired, the team knows her value.
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Old 09-25-15, 09:11 PM
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Originally Posted by PepeM
Who would want to hire a world champion? Any team. There is a reason she is not fired, the team knows her value.
Perhaps a Director Sportif might covet a world champion but the sponsor who pays their salaries and especially the contracted bicycle manufacturer might not care to risk being double crossed again.

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Old 09-25-15, 10:22 PM
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We all know that women's cycling is a different ballgame from the pro men. At the end of the day it's an individual sport, especially ITT. Its just you and the clock. Of course the sponsors won't be happy about this, but she did what she had to do to win, as long as it wasn't against the rules. At least she didn't run with Trek logos, lol.
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Old 09-25-15, 10:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Rich Gibson
Dude, you are also missing the point. Those defending her are also using speculation and making assumptions unquestioningly accepting her side's position. Healthy skepticism is what's called for. The bottom line is which team will hire her when she wants to move? Anyone considering it will ensure she's toast if she ever tries it again. (Read 'breaking the terms of a contract and huge lawsuits.') She has to know that as well...or at least should think about it. Could wind up being a short term gain.

Rich
I can only assume that the size of those huge lawsuits would be proportional to the flexibility of the sponsor to provide a frame with a headtube 1" lower. Even if the fit excuse is a red herring.

The biggest mistake here was making a big deal about it. What will I recall about this? Wilier wasn't the right bike to win worlds. UHC threatened to fire the woman who won Worlds. Those aren't positive memories.

Except for this incident, when I saw Villumsen in the future riding Wilier bikes I'd think that's the bike of a world champion. Now I will definitely remember that it is not the bike of a world champion.
Nah. In 10 years time when I read back on Wiki who won the 2015 women's TT worlds, I won't see anything about the bike, I'll just see; Villumsen, Linda (NZL).
I might, at some stage, recall that "hey, wasn't there a thing back in the 2010s with Giant or BMC where somebody on one of their teams won a pursuit title on a blacked out Venge instead?"
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Old 09-26-15, 08:25 AM
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Originally Posted by Leinster
Is she asking for a custom lay-up and a unique frame to her specifications, or just to get her fit dialled in right? It really doesn't sound like too much to ask to get fit right. They have a Worlds contender on their books for a whole year and they couldn't get her to a wind tunnel?


Cav is an interesting comparison; wasn't he spotted riding his old Venge for some stages at the Tour because he didn't like the integrated brake that Spesh put on the new version?
Sure they got her to a wind tunnel. When a stock geometry frame didn't fit who is going to pay tens or hundreds of thousands of USD to have one one-off molded? Women's teams are on a shoe-string budget. There's no $$ lying around from the team for that.

Further the UCI rules regarding frame geometry are ultra-assholian, your saddle cannot even be unlevel and as we all know your bars cannot extend even a single millimeter too long. All the bikes already have the steerer cut as low as it will go and stem/handlebars configured the same. What more can you do regarding fit to get someone an inch lower? No much of anything short of a better fitted frame.

Last edited by Marcus_Ti; 09-26-15 at 08:30 AM.
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Old 09-26-15, 09:26 PM
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Wilier stickers are only $10 on ebay!

This broad is dumb.
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Old 09-27-15, 01:54 PM
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But Trek has led the way in the industry in women's-specific design, Wilier has not yet followed. On their website they have made no attempt to market to women, they sell men's apparel but not women's, and have no women's range.
Opinion: The importance of respecting sponsors | Cyclingnews.com
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Old 09-27-15, 02:24 PM
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I like the suggestion in the article. A win-win situation -- Wilier produces a bike frame more suitable for Villumsen and other riders her size, and she wins time trials next year riding Wiliers and wearing the rainbow stripes. I have no idea whether it's practical for them to develop and produce a better frame in six months, though.
One could argue that Wilier should have stepped up and provided Villumsen with a frame that allowed her to achieve her optimal position on the bike. Women her size around the world can attest - most bike companies neglect small riders, and by all accounts the smallest Wilier is more than two centimetres higher in the head tube than the comparable Trek....

Sadly, it took an audacious act of courage on her part to face her team, put her foot down, and decide, team be damned, she would ride her Trek and win the World Championship. No woman makes enough money to sacrifice a chance at rainbow bands in favour of her sponsor. And while Tom Boonen might be able to command Specialized to make a bike to fit his specifications, Linda Villumsen before the rainbow bands was no Tom Boonen.

Now, rather than asking who was right and who was wrong, maybe what we should be asking is will Wilier invest in women cyclists now that they are sponsoring the World Champion, and perhaps create a bike for her to win the Olympic Games on?
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Old 09-27-15, 02:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Athens80
I like the suggestion in the article. A win-win situation -- Wilier produces a bike frame more suitable for Villumsen and other riders her size, and she wins time trials next year riding Wiliers and wearing the rainbow stripes. I have no idea whether it's practical for them to develop and produce a better frame in six months, though.

Or they'll say it's not worth the cost and the drama for a small market which is not our core business.

Cycling is heavily dependent on sponsorship, which is harder and harder to come by in a post EPO world. Even more in women's cycling which is a much more marginal economic proposition. You just can't afford to bite the hand that feeds you.

She should have worked with Wilier months ago to dial in her fit, and worse case rebadged another frame with Wilier decals.

We all work for someone. she forgot who she worked for.
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Old 09-27-15, 03:11 PM
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Originally Posted by merlinextraligh
Or they'll say it's not worth the cost and the drama for a small market which is not our core business.

Cycling is heavily dependent on sponsorship, which is harder and harder to come by in a post EPO world. Even more in women's cycling which is a much more marginal economic proposition. You just can't afford to bite the hand that feeds you.

She should have worked with Wilier months ago to dial in her fit, and worse case rebadged another frame with Wilier decals.

We all work for someone. she forgot who she worked for.
You're presuming she didn't try all that.

How do you "dial in" the fit of a bike that is too large in the headtube when you already have the stem slammed? Further it could well be possible that the NZ federation was happy to supply her a bike so long as she didn't brand it up as a Wilier as that would offend NZ's sponsor of bikes (Trek)....and the blackout job was a compromise to keep everyone from being too pissed. Further it is all a funny mountain out of a molehile because UHC and Wilier decided to make a huge deal about it. Had they just swallowed their pride and shut up, I doubt anyone press would have been spent on the topic. Instead they end up with egg on their face because they tried to fling mud first.

But yes, let us make a scapegoat out of the rider...just as the corporate thugs (sponsors) want us to.
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Old 09-27-15, 03:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Marcus_Ti
You're presuming she didn't try all that.

How do you "dial in" the fit of a bike that is too large in the headtube when you already have the stem slammed? Further it could well be possible that the NZ federation was happy to supply her a bike so long as she didn't brand it up as a Wilier as that would offend NZ's sponsor of bikes (Trek)....and the blackout job was a compromise to keep everyone from being too pissed. Further it is all a funny mountain out of a molehile because UHC and Wilier decided to make a huge deal about it. Had they just swallowed their pride and shut up, I doubt anyone press would have been spent on the topic. Instead they end up with egg on their face because they tried to fling mud first.

But yes, let us make a scapegoat out of the rider...just as the corporate thugs (sponsors) want us to.
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Old 09-27-15, 03:32 PM
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Originally Posted by merlinextraligh
Or they'll say it's not worth the cost and the drama for a small market which is not our core business.
Wilier puts time trial bikes front and center on their web page. What is their core business if not bicycles?
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