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  1. #1
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    Lance and Actovegen

    Lance has gone on record as saying he does not use banned substances OK
    But I have a problem with Actovegin which was found to be in the USP medical kit in the 2000 TDF along with insulin. Insulin was explained as there was a diabetic in the squad which they did not name ok fine for insulin.

    In 2000 when the product was found to be in the USP medical kit it was only approved for use in animals so the UCI did not have it on the banned list in 2000.
    It was banned for 2001. It boost oxygen carrying but does not raise the Hematocrit levels itís basically an extract of calfís blood

    (Edita Rumsas was in possession of Actovegin in July 2002 TDF Rumas never tested positive the Actovegen was apparently for his sick mother)

    Why did Lance and USPO need Actovegin in the 2000 TDF?
    Were they conducting medical experiments on animals between stages?
    Why someone would have a substance that was not approved for use on people in a medical kit for emergency? To my knowledge this has never been explained. I would be much happier if the Team doctor would explain how they obtained this and what emergency could this product be used in.
    Last edited by BLISS; 06-07-05 at 09:26 AM.

  2. #2
    Senior Member skydive69's Avatar
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    You troll mofos never give up. But I will give you the answer - they fed it to Robin Williams.
    www.brokennecktobrokenrecords.com

  3. #3
    He drop me Grasschopper's Avatar
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    If it wasn't banned then...well it wasn't banned. All of these teams...NOT JUST USPS...have doctors that are well aware of everything on the list and a lot of things that are out there that are not on the list. They are all pushing the limits of what should be done and when the UCI finds something that they deem should be illegal they put it on the list and the doctors stop giving it to their guys and work on finding the next magic combo.

    You and anyone else that thinks like this are REALLY nieve (sp?) if you think Lance and USPS are the only ones pushing medical methods to maximize their performance.
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  4. #4
    Senior Member skydive69's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grasschopper
    If it wasn't banned then...well it wasn't banned. All of these teams...NOT JUST USPS...have doctors that are well aware of everything on the list and a lot of things that are out there that are not on the list. They are all pushing the limits of what should be done and when the UCI finds something that they deem should be illegal they put it on the list and the doctors stop giving it to their guys and work on finding the next magic combo.

    You and anyone else that thinks like this are REALLY nieve (sp?) if you think Lance and USPS are the only ones pushing medical methods to maximize their performance.
    Oh no, now you have humored the dumbass troll by actually attempting to have an intelligent conversation with him or her.
    www.brokennecktobrokenrecords.com

  5. #5
    He drop me Grasschopper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skydive69
    Oh no, now you have humored the dumbass troll by actually attempting to have an intelligent conversation with him or her.
    Oops. sorry.
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  6. #6
    Senior Member skydive69's Avatar
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    Interestingly, I have just received a fascinating, very informative, private message from Bliss, and I hope that he decides to share it here. As it turns out, his opinion is probably a hell of a lot more valid than most of ours - certainly mine, and I retract my statements to the contrary.
    www.brokennecktobrokenrecords.com

  7. #7
    Senior Member squeegy200's Avatar
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    I was reading an article in ProCycling regarding the history of "Stimulants" in the Peloton. Looking at pictures of riders like Tom Simpson on the ground shaking in convulsions is frightening.

    You'll never catch everyone, but I wish this level of drug enforcement was in place in other professional sports as well. Major League Baseball--for example-- is a sport where the average helmet sizes are increasing by up to seven sizes! (And I don't mean egos) The only way to increase the size of your head is with steroids. (Unless you're lifting weights with your eyebrows)

  8. #8
    Forum Admin lotek's Avatar
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    here we go again. June and the accusations start.
    I for one will be glad when Lance finally retires so we don't have
    to read the same things over and over.
    Sono piý lento di quel che sembra.
    Odio la gente, tutti.

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  9. #9
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    fwiw, which btw isn't a whole lot, i remember reading that activogen was used on road rash to promote quicker healing.

  10. #10
    Elitist Jackass Smoothie104's Avatar
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    Yeah, road rash, thats the spin they put on it. They make a 2% cream for skin ulcers that diabetics sometimes get... The bags of injectable liquid that postal was tossing out is not for topical use. Besides, if it was for road rash, why would LA try and say he never heard or it?

    You know who else gets caught with this stuff? non diabetic cross country skiers and swimmers, neither of whom suffer from road rash.

    It's injected same day prior to a time trial, or the night before a hard road stage, allegedlly mixed with some other stuff. I'm not an expert on this, but guys like USPS team doctor Pedro Celaya are, he was an assitant ONCE team doctor in the late 90's under Nicholas Terrados (banned from the 1999 tour becuase of the drugs found in the ONCE truck in 1998)before USPS picked him up.

    Why run in the "gray areas" of the rules? becuase if you tire faster, and recover slower than the rest of the peleton, what good are you to the sponsors?
    Last edited by Smoothie104; 06-07-05 at 04:12 PM.

  11. #11
    Nut Job jedi_rider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skydive69
    Interestingly, I have just received a fascinating, very informative, private message from Bliss, and I hope that he decides to share it here. As it turns out, his opinion is probably a hell of a lot more valid than most of ours - certainly mine, and I retract my statements to the contrary.
    Please share...
    Any time I'm going up a hill, I know I'm headed in the right direction.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by jedi_rider
    Please share...
    better still... BLISS should share his/her complete story.
    the allegations have started, lets get the juice (no punn intended)

  13. #13
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    My Father went to the same sports school as Ekimov and shared the same Doctor he has a silver medal from the world championships and competed at the Olympics he was given drugs never told what they were, luckily he is still healthy.

    I cycle clean for a Belgium Amateur team I have inherited some of my fathers ability after some good results in my home country I got a place on a Belgium Amateur team, drugs are used by some amateurs but I never used them and had some good results without them, I am a big and strong suited to racing in Belgium I am not exceptionally but I was told I would make a good domestic if I applied myself. I managed to get a one year pro contract I was shown how to inject myself given drugs (not all banned some were just vitamins but some were as I looked them up list of stuff not to take) later I was even shown how to set up an IV drip.
    I was told what to take and when (I got a big telling of for taking the wrong thing at the wrong time could have been embarrassing if I had been tested) mostly though I did not take it. but it becomes difficult when most, but not all people in the team are and your not, if I was told to chase a break down and couldnít do it after the race it would be not are you tired or we need to look at you training it was are you looking after yourself. There are many cyclist as good as me willing to be better than me by taking drugs my one year contract was not renewed as I made my felling well known that I would prefer not to be included in any drug program one of the team coach said to me why are you here then I said I am here because I like racing, he said go back to being an amateur then?

    I have seen packets Actovegin around I asked what it is and was told Itís a bovine plasma I said what the hell good can injecting calfís blood do for you I was told that Ití does not increase the hemocrit level but increase the oxygen carrying capacity ther were preparing to mix it with some other stuff which I did not see the label on(Hemopure is apparently the newer version of this stuff) I said Christ what the hell your not going to put that **** inside you are you itís cows blood for gods sake but it has become very popular.

    I will tell you of a race I did as a in Belgium we had a good sprinter in out team and stood a good chance of winning, if it came down to a sprint we chased hard to bring a breakaways back but no other Teams would help I was told by the Team Captain to get water from the car where I was also given syringes which I gave to the Team Captain he gave me one and said give these to a couple of my team mates and then said get on the front chase the breakaway down and drop out with 10k to go which we did I took the stuff and felt so strong we got the breakaway dropped out cycled back to the Hotel were I was given a pill to take when I got home. If we had been selected for testing they would have said they he did finish the race and have already gone. This would have been accepted.

    But I sometimes think If I was a Lance or Jan or Di Luca and Doctors said to me hey what we give you will not damage and you will never have to work again after cycling would I be so willing to dismiss looking after myself?

    Sorry if my English is not so good as I have done some of this through a language translator.

  14. #14
    Senior Member skydive69's Avatar
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    Thanks Bliss - great piece. One of the guys that I cycle with regularly was a Belgian Pro.
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  15. #15
    He drop me Grasschopper's Avatar
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    Great post...and totally confirms what I was trying to say. My point would be I guess why direct it at Lance and USPS/Discovery? Clearly at a lower level your team was doing it and I am sure just about every other team is doing it as well. Lance is an easy target since he has been wining but I would venture to say he and his team aren't doing anything different than any other major team. And Lance personally is probably doing less due to his recovery from cancer I am SURE he is very concerned with what is going into his body.
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  16. #16
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    I very much hope he is concerned with what is going in his body, and very much hope he has not been using bovine plasma.

    And ok Lance is any easy target he is the best there is in the TDF

    I just wish one big team would say look this is what is in our medical kit we use nothing else. But this will never happen as there is a vale of secrecy that if you break it you will be punished a word in the ear of the crit orgsanisors and your Team will not be invited if you are included so you keep quiet.

    The current system works you ride as an amateur. If you do ok they will check your v02 At threshold power to weight ration if it looks good you will get a one year contract where you are expected to learn what goes on if you abide by the rules and work for the team and do well you will get a second contract if you buck the system you will not be picked to race, you lose fitness results donít come, and you will be dropped.
    There is a very talented guy in our Team who is on trial with one of the big Belgium teams he is a good climber very strong, in a training camp in Villach in the Austrian alps there is a 17k climb I believe Peter Luttenberger holds the record at 45 minsí this guy first attempt was 47minís but he is clean and said he will not take drugs if he does not he will be recycled back to the amateurs unless he does something exceptional first year,
    What I donít like here is somebody that this guy is good he could go a long way his figures are good. I think he will be back with us within the next year he will not get the opportunity to find out how good he really is.

    Anyway ití June in Belgium itís raining thereís a northerly wind and itís time to give the boys one some pain we are doing a round route of the Paternberg, Kwaremont and Koppenberg and I will enjoy ever second of it. One English whimp (he helps me with English and I let him wheel suck)and the rest are from Belgium who I will try and make me suffer as the bastards have just finished of my Mums Fruit cake and not saved any for me and English there will be some pain today)
    Bliss

  17. #17
    Forum Admin lotek's Avatar
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    Bliss,

    welcome to Bike Forums. It's good to have someone who
    can speak about what is really going on in the peloton.

    Marty
    Sono piý lento di quel che sembra.
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  18. #18
    Senior Member Keith99's Avatar
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    As was already mentioned Lance gets targeted because he is on top. I think there are other things that add to it. Part of it is there are really more than two positions and things get heated up because things get taken out of context. Let me give 4 different positions.

    Lance is squeeky clean. Never did any drugs never will
    Lance is probably cleaner than most.
    Lance is typical.
    Lance is only better because he has better drugs (or uses them better).

    I find the first and fourth very doubtful, but once anyone holding those positions gets involved then things get out of hand. (And those positions get involved even when no one on a thread holds them).

    Like this thread. Lance was mentioned because of his position. The original post seems to have been influenced by those who hold the squeeky clean position. Especially in hindsight it does not seem to take the position that Lance is worse than others, but some responded as if it did.

    It really is rather similar to other things involving Lance. Some of those who love him think he can do no wrong. I've seen the same kind of over compensating with people talking about how good a cyclist Lance is. Someone claimes he is the greatest ever and when that is disputed someone takes it as saying Lance did nothing worthwhile as a rider.

  19. #19
    Senior Member skydive69's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keith99
    As was already mentioned Lance gets targeted because he is on top. I think there are other things that add to it. Part of it is there are really more than two positions and things get heated up because things get taken out of context. Let me give 4 different positions.

    Lance is squeeky clean. Never did any drugs never will
    Lance is probably cleaner than most.
    Lance is typical.
    Lance is only better because he has better drugs (or uses them better).

    I find the first and fourth very doubtful, but once anyone holding those positions gets involved then things get out of hand. (And those positions get involved even when no one on a thread holds them).

    Like this thread. Lance was mentioned because of his position. The original post seems to have been influenced by those who hold the squeeky clean position. Especially in hindsight it does not seem to take the position that Lance is worse than others, but some responded as if it did.

    It really is rather similar to other things involving Lance. Some of those who love him think he can do no wrong. I've seen the same kind of over compensating with people talking about how good a cyclist Lance is. Someone claimes he is the greatest ever and when that is disputed someone takes it as saying Lance did nothing worthwhile as a rider.
    Gee, an intelligent, unemotional post - something rather unique around here! I, personally, by nature of my personality tend towards the emotional (read sometimes irrational).

    Lance is a hero to me. I desparately hope that he is clean. I like to perhaps fool myself and believe that his combination of freakish genetics and incredibly hard training is the reason for his wonderful success. Having said that, Tyler Hamilton was also one of my heroes.
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  20. #20
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    it's intresting that so many people point the finger at lance and say that he's doping, but so few people seem to forget the other big names. I would think that there would be equal, if not greater incentive to cheat if you were up in the top ten or fifteen. I mean, wouldn't being "the guy" who defeated lance, or who ever is on top at the time, be just as great of an incentive to cheat?

  21. #21
    Nut Job jedi_rider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skydive69
    ...freakish genetics...(
    In the Playboy interview, Lance mentioned that the main artery going from the torso down to the legs was at least 3 times the size of a normal human...V02max was 84 I think...RHR was 32...yeah---genetics and hard training...
    Any time I'm going up a hill, I know I'm headed in the right direction.

  22. #22
    Elitist Jackass Smoothie104's Avatar
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    A lot of pro's have a VO2max over 80, a lot of them train hard too. Yes Lance is gifted, and driven, yes, Lance is able to ride the Tour de France better than all of them, but he's not doing it on club sandwiches and mineral water. None of them are.

    Discovery has the best of the best, including equipement, training methods, technology, and medical preparation.


    Apparently all doping control at the TdF will be overseen by WADA this year, and not the UCI. I have also heard that all intravenous medication is forbidden this year, even for re-hydration.

    There will either be a ton of busts, or the slowest tour in a while, that's my guess.

    Interesting to note that after the 1998 Festina Affair, the UCI's solution to the "problem" was a 3 month ban for riders who tested positive. 3 months.

    But then again the UCI is made up of former racers and DS's etc..

  23. #23
    I Am Online Now! G-Unit's Avatar
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    HAR!! That was good

    Robin Williams does look like a horse (and acts like one too)


    Quote Originally Posted by skydive69
    You troll mofos never give up. But I will give you the answer - they fed it to Robin Williams.
    I rock peas on my head but donít call me a pea head.
    Bees on my head but donít call me a bee head.
    Bruce Leeís on my head but donít call me a Lee head.
    Now please excuse me, I gots to get my tree fed.

  24. #24
    Nut Job jedi_rider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Smoothie104
    A lot of pro's have a VO2max over 80, a lot of them train hard too...
    Yep. I meant to emphasize the 3x larger than normal artery. That's huge...
    Any time I'm going up a hill, I know I'm headed in the right direction.

  25. #25
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    Has any human being on this planet passed more drug tests over the past five years than Lance Armstrong? I'm fascinated by the fact that the majority of bike racers who FAIL drug tests are from Europe, AND that most of the false accusations against Lance also originate in Europe - Europeans are EXPERTS on every form of cheating.

    Euro logic runs this way: I know that many or most of the top European cycling teams get caught cheating sooner or later. And, Lance beats "my" cheaters year after year. Therefore, Lance must also be a cheater.

    Pathetic.

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