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  1. #1
    Senior Member Sincitycycler's Avatar
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    How come Ullrich likes to mash in the mountains?

    Wouldn't spinning more help him out with the acceleration he lacks in the Alps? His lack of climbing punch seems to be what everyone is bagging on Jan these days...
    "How did all those 'Keep Off the Grass' signs get there?"

  2. #2
    Feed me your soul! Jakey's Avatar
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    You would think... but when you have ridden...successfully that way for so long... do you want to try to change and risk losing the ability you have?

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    Senior Member doctorSpoc's Avatar
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    accelerating with the pure climbers is not necessary... if a rider is disciplined and does his own pace and accelerates sensibly he can bring back the more explosive climbers as they settle into their regular pace... look at Salvodelli at the Giro. if a guy that is not explosive tries to go with the explosive guys he will.. explode... Jan is not an explosive climber and he is never going to be one. he needs to ride his race, based on his abilities and the way HIS body can best achieve the required end result. Just because another rider can get up a hill best by spinning doesn't mean that is the best way for everyone in the world to get up a hill... everyone is built differently and what works for one does not work for all...

  4. #4
    Senior Member doctorSpoc's Avatar
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    think about this.. imagine that Lance had not returned to cycling after cancer and Jan was now working on his 8th TdF victory... would we be reading post like... why do all these guys spin up hills when if you can get up hills so much faster by mashing a big gear like Jan the 8 time winner of the TdF??

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    Yes, except it is well documented that spinning is more efficient on steep climbs and more than one masher has changed his style to emulate the spinners. Even if your body is different and your natural tendency is to ride one way, sometimes a conscious change in style can generate dramatic improvement. Perhaps, as great as Ullrich is, there is some stubbornness there too. "I won the TdF once mashing, I can prevail again."

  6. #6
    Senior Member doctorSpoc's Avatar
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    carmichael (Lances coach), in his book actually doesn't agree with you about spinning being more efficient.. he actually says you use more total energy spinning than you do climbing at a lower cadence... and advise to be consious that you should make sure you feed and hydrate accordingly. he says, what spinning does is it kind of off loads the work from the legs to the heart and lungs (higher HR, more oxygen uptake)... your legs push with less force every revolution, but you actually use more total energy because you are using the full complement of your leg muscles more times a minute. he claims the advantage to spinning is that a greater portion of the work is done aerobically... so less lactic acid, less fatigue, more sparing of muscle glycogen... but you could imagine that for an individual there is really an optimal cadence (it's not faster is better) where they trade off the various factors based on THEIR physiology (efficiency, lactic acid build up, an induviduals natural ability to spin, ability to flush and buffer lactic acid etc.)... i'm not even sure that carmichael really understands what's going on, but for whatever reason some people go up hills faster spinning and some people go up faster at a lower cadence (maybe people like Ullrich just have a greater capacity to flush and buffer lactic acid than others so their optimal cadence for climbing is lower?). Ullrich came up in the East German system... something tells me they would have tested him a few times as a younster to determine what is the best way (cadence) for him to get up hills... they were pretty maticulous about stuff like that. climbing is a very mental thing as well and spining at a high cadence for long periods of time is very mentally taxing... there are so many factor that i really don't think you can make a blanket coment like spinning is better for everyone

    plus.. it's a little more that winning the tour once.. he has a 1st and FIVE 2nd places and a fouth at the tour de france,1st tour of spain... the list goes on... i think it's pretty clear he is one of the best climbers in the world how many finished lower than him do you call good or great climber... bottom line... if it aint broke don't fix it.

  7. #7
    more ape than man timmhaan's Avatar
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    jan must have an amazingly high percentage of slow twitch muscle fibers.

  8. #8
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    I'm a big Jan fan. I respect Lance a geat deal. Lance reminds me of Michael Jordan. I'm from Chicago and I remember how Patrick Ewing and Charles Barkley could never get past Jordan. Clyde Drexler was lucky to get one while Jordan was retired in the mid-90s. Both Ewing and Barkley are members of the 50 NBA Greatest and they played in the Finals but they never won a ring. Jordan stood in their way. So it is with Lance and Jan, who won his only TDF in '97 before Lance got it going. But I don't think Jan will win after Lance retires.

  9. #9
    Senior Member doctorSpoc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jbonus
    I'm a big Jan fan. I respect Lance a geat deal. Lance reminds me of Michael Jordan. I'm from Chicago and I remember how Patrick Ewing and Charles Barkley could never get past Jordan. Clyde Drexler was lucky to get one while Jordan was retired in the mid-90s. Both Ewing and Barkley are members of the 50 NBA Greatest and they played in the Finals but they never won a ring. Jordan stood in their way. So it is with Lance and Jan, who won his only TDF in '97 before Lance got it going. But I don't think Jan will win after Lance retires.
    Jan is even more unlucky than that... he happened to be on Bjarne Riis's team in '96, so even though he might have given Riis a run for his money even then, he couldn't attack his team captain... his 1sh 2nd place at the tour.. he must have been thinking and been told... look Jan there will be plenty of Tours for you to win you are young.. doh!!
    Last edited by doctorSpoc; 06-21-05 at 02:40 PM.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by doctorSpoc
    Jan is even more unlucky than that... he happened to be on Bjarne Riis's team in '96, so even though he might have given Riis a run for his money even then, he couldn't attack his team captain... his 1sh 2nd place at the tour.. he must have been thinking and been told... look Jan there will be plenty of Tours for you to win you are young.. doh!!
    in 96 - he was within two minutes of Riis... in 1997 - he won by a margin of over 9 minutes...

    but those were the days before his knee problems
    "The heights by great men reached and kept were not attained by sudden flight But they, while their companions slept, were toiling upward in the night." -Henry Wadsworth Longfellow

  11. #11
    Senior Member skydive69's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jakey
    You would think... but when you have ridden...successfully that way for so long... do you want to try to change and risk losing the ability you have?
    I guess if your definition of riding successfully means you get dropped in the mountains, than I guess he is one of the most successful riders ever! He is well practiced now to continue the practice in the TDF. Of course that will bring out the spitting, cursing Germans blaming Lance for beating their big gear mashing hero.
    www.brokennecktobrokenrecords.com

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by skydive69
    I guess if your definition of riding successfully means you get dropped in the mountains, than I guess he is one of the most successful riders ever! He is well practiced now to continue the practice in the TDF. Of course that will bring out the spitting, cursing Germans blaming Lance for beating their big gear mashing hero.

    .... how many TdFs have you actually followed? You seem to be in the delusion that Ullrich cannot climb. Yet oddly enough he has consistently climbed better than what? Everyone but Armstrong in the last 8 years of TdF history.

    As for your references to spitting fans - most of them were drunk. Being German has nothing to do with it. I'm sure American fans aren't well represented by the instances of arena beer tossing, attacking players, etc
    Last edited by ShinyBaldy; 06-21-05 at 07:25 PM.
    "The heights by great men reached and kept were not attained by sudden flight But they, while their companions slept, were toiling upward in the night." -Henry Wadsworth Longfellow

  13. #13
    Senior Member doctorSpoc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skydive69
    I guess if your definition of riding successfully means you get dropped in the mountains, than I guess he is one of the most successful riders ever! He is well practiced now to continue the practice in the TDF. Of course that will bring out the spitting, cursing Germans blaming Lance for beating their big gear mashing hero.
    think someone seriously needs a reality check... for more than a decade now there has been only one other person in the world better than Jan and in one of those years there has been no one in the world better than him... that doesn't sound too shabby to me??? what are you talking about???

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by doctorSpoc
    bottom line... if it aint broke don't fix it.
    I agree that Ullrich is an exceptional climber -- maybe not a mountain goat, but more than good enough that he loses almost no time, even on the steep stages.

    Nonetheless, my opinion. If I had come in second to Lance as many times as Ullrich has, I would give serious consideration to emulating Lance, in lieu of slavishly adhering to my old style.

  15. #15
    Senior Member skydive69's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by doctorSpoc
    think someone seriously needs a reality check... for more than a decade now there has been only one other person in the world better than Jan and in one of those years there has been no one in the world better than him... that doesn't sound too shabby to me??? what are you talking about???
    There is that old saying that you are only as good as your last effort. He looked like an old lady when the heat was applied on the climbs in the Tour de Suisse, and will be made to look the same in the mountains of France - much to my glee. Anything that distrubs the euro trash german fans delights me!
    www.brokennecktobrokenrecords.com

  16. #16
    Senior Member skydive69's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ShinyBaldy
    .... how many TdFs have you actually followed? You seem to be in the delusion that Ullrich cannot climb. Yet oddly enough he has consistently climbed better than what? Everyone but Armstrong in the last 8 years of TdF history.

    As for your references to spitting fans - most of them were drunk. Being German has nothing to do with it. I'm sure American fans aren't well represented by the instances of arena beer tossing, attacking players, etc
    Well, I am sure he will continue his historical performance vis-a-vis Lance. As far as your assesment of the german fans, did you give them sobriety tests? I wonder how you happen to know that THEY (and "they" represents a hell of a lot of spitters and cursers) were drunk? Perhaps some of those arena beer tossers will come to the tdf this year and let a few lugis fly in Ullrich's direction!
    www.brokennecktobrokenrecords.com

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by skydive69
    Well, I am sure he will continue his historical performance vis-a-vis Lance. As far as your assesment of the german fans, did you give them sobriety tests? I wonder how you happen to know that THEY (and "they" represents a hell of a lot of spitters and cursers) were drunk? Perhaps some of those arena beer tossers will come to the tdf this year and let a few lugis fly in Ullrich's direction!

    apply the same reasoning - how do you know they are german? or european? did you check their passports?

    oh? you weren't there?

    you seriously have some issues if you are hoping that people will toss things at Ullrich. What's he ever done to you? Or are you just one of those armchair fans who get really into the sport - antagonize the opponents of your favorite and hope ill upon them?
    Last edited by ShinyBaldy; 06-21-05 at 08:30 PM.
    "The heights by great men reached and kept were not attained by sudden flight But they, while their companions slept, were toiling upward in the night." -Henry Wadsworth Longfellow

  18. #18
    Positio, ergo sum! Bécane's Avatar
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    Some people spin ,some people mash.

    Louison Bobet, TdF winner 1953, 54, 55, would mash hills on 47-23!

  19. #19
    Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bécane
    Some people spin ,some people mash.

    Louison Bobet, TdF winner 1953, 54, 55, would mash hills on 47-23!


    Clavette (RIP) always insisted on a 44-tooth inner.

  20. #20
    Positio, ergo sum! Bécane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ed073
    Clavette (RIP) always insisted on a 44-tooth inner.
    And Virenque on 40 or 41 IIRC.

  21. #21
    Senior Member skydive69's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ShinyBaldy
    apply the same reasoning - how do you know they are german? or european? did you check their passports?

    oh? you weren't there?

    you seriously have some issues if you are hoping that people will toss things at Ullrich. What's he ever done to you? Or are you just one of those armchair fans who get really into the sport - antagonize the opponents of your favorite and hope ill upon them?
    Oh, it probably was Italians waving German flags, wearing German stuff, and letting the lugis fly. Have you ever listened to an interview with Lance on the subject or do you think the world is or should be what you want it to be? Oh, you don't pay attention to anything but your on bleatings?
    www.brokennecktobrokenrecords.com

  22. #22
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    speaking of which, What has LA said about it? I'm curious because I've seen some crazy stuff over in Europe...
    Arriving Somewhere, but not here...

  23. #23
    SLJ 6/8/65-5/2/07 Walter's Avatar
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    A TdF victory, a Vuelta victory, 4 other TdF podiums. Many victories in many other races (I don't feel like looking up his Palmares). If Ullrich quit today he's had a career most riders in the history of the sport would've been quite proud of.

    No, he can't beat LA in France but I don't see how that degrades everything else he has accomplished. The TdF is big but it's not the entire sport (my only complaint with the Armstrong legacy btw).

    Btw if not for the "Eurotrash" we wouldn't have this sport to talk about and LA wouldn't have that race which has made him a celebrity and a multi-millionaire. Have you seen the newest Chris Horner Gatorade commercial? No? Wonder why? He sure won alot of US races....


    “Life is not one damned thing after another. Life is one damned thing over and over.”
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  24. #24
    Senior Member doctorSpoc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skydive69
    Oh, it probably was Italians waving German flags, wearing German stuff, and letting the lugis fly. Have you ever listened to an interview with Lance on the subject or do you think the world is or should be what you want it to be? Oh, you don't pay attention to anything but your on bleatings?

    isn't this thread about how effective Jan Ullrich's climbing style is... you are a little off topic with your spitting Germans tirade. and what does that have to do with Jan anyway? i guess he set up a keg on the hill and paid a bunch of Germans to swear and spit on Lance??? you need to go start a thread about how bad German fans are but don't mention Jan's name 'cause i'm sure he was very embarrassed by the whole incident like i'm guessing most Germans were.

    and take your meds... just kidding, but you need to relax a little..

  25. #25
    troutbum fishigan's Avatar
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    I was checking out BBC this morning, "Basso says he does not think Ullrich is in good enough shape to challenge this year."
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/othe...ng/4118122.stm

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