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Old 07-11-05, 10:22 AM   #1
BostonWest
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Lance-Landis Feud

I was watching the CBS TdF wrap up show yesterday afternoon and it mentioned how Lance is upset with Landis and even interviewed Landis on the topic. Landis seemed pretty reasonable. He was sad that Lance is upset with him and that it is unfortunate that Lance thinks he (Landis) still owes him something. He also said he wished they could be friends, but so be it. However, I missed any mention of what specifically caused the falling out. I know that Lance has traditionally had some problems with ex-teamates, but he also still gets along with Tyler Hamilton if I'm not mistaken. Anyone know what's going on here? Also, what's his relationship with Heras and other ex-posties?
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Old 07-11-05, 11:33 AM   #2
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didn't know he had a problem with Landis. he wasn't happy with Heras leaving, lance claims that Heras just sort of up and left without really letting the team make a counter offer. don't know what the problem with Landis could be i don't think it was any secret that he was probably going to leave even during last years tour.
i've also heard in the past about Lance not thinking much of people leaving his team, but other than Heras i've never heard of any specific instances. he was always friendly with tyler, and he doesnt seem to have a problem with Levi.
and i don't really understand why he would have a problem. loyalty is one thing but the career of a professional cyclist is relatively short and if another team offers you a lot more money i'm not sure how someone can really afford to say no.
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Old 07-11-05, 11:56 AM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shaharidan
loyalty is one thing but the career of a professional cyclist is relatively short and if another team offers you a lot more money i'm not sure how someone can really afford to say no.
First of all, can we use "feud" in its proper sense- if we don't know what's going on (we don't...) then it's way too strong a word.

And re: my quoting of shaharidan, I doubt $$ had very much (if anything at all) to do with either Heras or Landis leaving- they're each team leader material, and once you reach a certain maturity level there's no reason to ride for smb. else. Heras had won the Vuelta multiple times, and needed to take a serious crack at the Tour before retiring. Being Armstrong's super-dom more than a couple years won't help him achieve that. Same with Landis- although I don't envision him ever winning a GT, the guy's a professional and has his career aspirations. You can't blame him in any way for pursuing his dreams, and one of them is obviously to be a team leader and fight for high GC at the Tour.

Granted it is a pain in the butt for Armstrong to keep losing key support, but Landis is dead right when he mentions that Lance should understand, since he would have done the same thing in Landis' situation. If not sooner...
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Old 07-11-05, 11:57 AM   #4
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I do not know the actual facts, but this is what I have seen during the last year.
1) before the Vuelta Landis announced he was leaving Discovery/USPS to go to Phonak to support Tyler. Probably not what DIsco wanted, but they seemed fine with it. They gifted him the Oro during the Vuelta.
2) During the Vuelta-into the off season Tyler got "busted". Landis' reason for leaving is not there anymore.
3) Phonak does not initially get a bid into the ProTour-rumors/speculation that Landis' contract allowed him an out if that happened..

MAYBE???? Disco made an offer to come back??? MAYBE Lance asked Landis to come back?????

4) Landis stays at Phonak and is now labeled a GC contender/Leader...
5) Landis races against Disco/Lance at Tour De Georgia and Lance makes sure to point to Landis that he does not feel Landis is 'Leader" material...


Anyone have more "events" that I have missed? This is all from CyclingNews/Velonews/conjecture on my part..
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Old 07-11-05, 12:07 PM   #5
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I think Lance is a great guy for the way he inspires survivorship and of course, for his TDF achievements but boy, this appears to be somewhat petty. The Tour of Georgia incident was embarassing considering how hard Floyd worked for Lance in the past.
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Old 07-11-05, 12:29 PM   #6
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I don't know, it appears Floyd cashed in pretty well on the hard work he did during last years tour. It does seem like there has to be more to this than we know if there really is a feud.

I wonder if he gets the chance if Floyd will return Lance's Tour of Georgia antics.
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Old 07-11-05, 12:35 PM   #7
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He wont get the chance, no how no way!!!!!
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Old 07-11-05, 02:18 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JungleCat
I think Lance is a great guy for the way he inspires survivorship and of course, for his TDF achievements but boy, this appears to be somewhat petty. The Tour of Georgia incident was embarassing considering how hard Floyd worked for Lance in the past.
I thought that was a pretty cruel, but appropriate gesture on Lance's part. Very American, IMO. It's the kind of thing you see in the NBA and such, so I don't think it was inappropriate. I think had he done it in a Euro race it would have been a Bad Thing(TM).

I can't imagine what the deal is, though. Maybe the theory of Floyd being offered an out is correct?
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Old 07-11-05, 03:39 PM   #9
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I believe that the move to Phonak was for a large part about money. Phonak currently does not have Landis as #1 anyways. He is talked about as one of their potential leaders. Remember most of us get the info from OLN which is still very Amerocentric. I think Lance likes loyalty, and sort of thinks why would you leave the best. And the simple answer is money.
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Old 07-11-05, 03:54 PM   #10
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Let me preface this by saying I'm a big Lance fan, or at least a fan with great respect for anyone with his amount of talent. But, for some reason it appears that Lance expects all his teammates to abandon their own ambitions and goals to support him. He also seems to think he is responsible for getting them to where they are. In fact, it is true that the success of Lance and US Postal is largely responsible for many of the Posties being highly regarded and sought after. However, it is ridiculous that Lance expects them to remain in his service until he retires or deems them no longer of use. I wish he would respect that similar to other sports, coming up through the amateur ranks most eventual professional athletes are superior to everyone around them and thus develop certain goals and dreams for their own career that rarely include being a domestic on someone else's team. True as they develop most realize they are role players and not stars, but you can't blame them for taking more money or leaving to go to another team where they might have an opportunity to star. In Landis' case, he probably saw Hamilton's ban as an opportunity to be a GC contender in his own right and that's why he didn't opt out. I'm sure in his opinion he is the equal of Botero or anyone else on Phonak. When it's all said and done, I think it would be a great read about the people left in the wake of Lance's career and how he has apparently burned many bridges with once friends.
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Old 07-11-05, 03:54 PM   #11
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I saw an interview with Landis (maybe it was on OLN, I don't remember) and he took the cameras through his house and showed them his TdF stuff. It was all Postal stuff (for obvious reasons). He had stuff signed by LA. I felt kind of bad for the guy, leaving Postal/Discovery and heading over to Phonak to ride with Hamilton only to have that blow up in his face. I dunno... Landis just had this sad look on his face like he was stuck in no man's land, somewhere between the breakaway and the pelaton.
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Old 07-11-05, 04:12 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BostonWest
Let me preface this by saying I'm a big Lance fan, or at least a fan with great respect for anyone with his amount of talent. But, for some reason it appears that Lance expects all his teammates to abandon their own ambitions and goals to support him. He also seems to think he is responsible for getting them to where they are. In fact, it is true that the success of Lance and US Postal is largely responsible for many of the Posties being highly regarded and sought after. However, it is ridiculous that Lance expects them to remain in his service until he retires or deems them no longer of use. I wish he would respect that similar to other sports, coming up through the amateur ranks most eventual professional athletes are superior to everyone around them and thus develop certain goals and dreams for their own career that rarely include being a domestic on someone else's team. True as they develop most realize they are role players and not stars, but you can't blame them for taking more money or leaving to go to another team where they might have an opportunity to star. In Landis' case, he probably saw Hamilton's ban as an opportunity to be a GC contender in his own right and that's why he didn't opt out. I'm sure in his opinion he is the equal of Botero or anyone else on Phonak. When it's all said and done, I think it would be a great read about the people left in the wake of Lance's career and how he has apparently burned many bridges with once friends.
We're all supposing that's why Lance has an issue with Landis, but let's wait until the truth comes out before attacking his actions. As other posters noted, he seems to have a good relationship with Tyler and Levi, so their may be something else at work here. Definately intriguing though.
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Old 07-11-05, 04:16 PM   #13
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Landis came to Chicago last year and raced the USPRO criterium championships with Robbie Ventura. He said back then that he just felt it was time to move on to better opportunities and he was very courteous with his words about his time with US Postal and Lance. I also spoke to Robbie about it for a bit too, and even Robbie was saying that Landis leaving was a blow, but at the same time, everyone was happy Landis found a good team he could grow with. I guess that wasn't to be after all.

It seems like LA is being petty... that pointing bit is pretty unprofessional. What if Voigt pointed at the clock as Lance rode up in the last stage? That story would have made the headlines in every paper, and Voigt would have been villified. But classy competitors don't do that kind of taunting stuff. Oboeguy is right- that was a very American move and just petty and ignorant, especially considering that LA hadn't won a race since 2004 himself. What was he trying to prove?

I think LA wants to suck the usefulness out of his domestiques until he decides it's time for them to move on. I find that pretty distasteful, and yet another trait that slips out of LA that makes me a bit happier he's doing his last race.

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Old 07-11-05, 04:22 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by Doid23
We're all supposing that's why Lance has an issue with Landis, but let's wait until the truth comes out before attacking his actions. As other posters noted, he seems to have a good relationship with Tyler and Levi, so their may be something else at work here. Definately intriguing though.
As a P.S., Landis' contract was up. Another team offers him good money and an opportunity to grow. Landis leaves. That's about it. That's Floyd's side of the story. I spoke to a couple of Posties when they were in Chicago (some came by my fitness club, and Robbie taught a class, so instructors got to sit with them and talk for a bit). Then Landis came into town the next week, and he was every bit the nice, professional guy that the other Posties said he was. I don't think anyone but LA thought it was a bad idea for Landis to leave.

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Old 07-11-05, 04:35 PM   #15
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There is a lot of comments on the Armstrong - Landis personal relationship dynamics in the new Dan Coyle's book "Lance Armstrong's War".

A couple of points he makes (from what I remember):

1. Floyd is a stubborn character (as is Lance) and sometimes have disagreed with LA which caused frictions later on...
2. Floyd speaks his mouth openly which brought him into some conflict situations with LA and Johann (i.e., asking for a salary raise)...
3. Floyd had sometimes trouble with how he was treated by Johann, or Lance... Not letting him (and others on the team) know in 2004, until the last moment who will be in the TdF squad, despite having excellent training and test results... Btw, it was really interesting to read that in June '04, around the time of the Dauphine (IIRC), Floyd had better power output numbers (per lb) than Lance...
4. Floyd thought he was seriously underpaid, as he looked around the pro teams how much riders of his abilities were getting paid... I think he knew even before the TdF '04 that he wants to leave, he truly believed he outgrew the role of a simple domestique (just taking orders and fetch water)... Plus, if you understand how Tyler was leading the Phonak team (also described in one chapter), it is not surprising Floyd wanted to leave...
5. And I think, this is one of the most important points, that lot working relationships around Lance are very unstable and unpredictable... He demands unquestionable loyalty... One moment you are his biggest friend, but if you get too close and make a wrong move, you lose his trust instantly, or even end up being sued like hell...

Read it for yourself... It is a really good read and shows Lance as a more complex (and also more vulnerable) person rather than the simplified glorification of the previous two books (although I agree that their goal was to be more inspirational rather than investigative one as in this one...
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Old 07-11-05, 06:00 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by Doid23
We're all supposing that's why Lance has an issue with Landis, but let's wait until the truth comes out before attacking his actions.
That was the point of my original post. The 1 hour first week wrap up on CBS yesterday discussed this issues and interviewed Landis. Landis wants to have a good relationship with Lance, but it's Lance's choice to be hostile towards Landis. I missed the opening parts of the segment so I don't know what Lance's specific problem with Landis is. I don't even know if the segment said what the actual disagreement is. When he pointed at Landis is evidence enough of a riff.
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Old 07-11-05, 06:44 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by koffee brown
As a P.S., Landis' contract was up. Another team offers him good money and an opportunity to grow. Landis leaves. That's about it. That's Floyd's side of the story. I spoke to a couple of Posties when they were in Chicago (some came by my fitness club, and Robbie taught a class, so instructors got to sit with them and talk for a bit). Then Landis came into town the next week, and he was every bit the nice, professional guy that the other Posties said he was. I don't think anyone but LA thought it was a bad idea for Landis to leave.

Koffee
If anyone knew for sure that LA's gripe with Floyd was simply because he left, then I would agree that Lance was being petty. Everyone has the right to make the right decision for themselves, and if you don't look out for yourself, who will?

My point is that I don't know the basis for Lance's gripe with Floyd, since I've never heard him discuss it or heard any informed rumours about it. As you said, we know Floyds's side, but I've yet to hear anything about Lance's side. I'm still surprised that no one asked him (or I may have missed it) what the gesture at the Tour of Georgia meant , because if it was due to his "feud" then I would agree that it was rather classless.
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Old 07-11-05, 06:47 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BostonWest
That was the point of my original post. The 1 hour first week wrap up on CBS yesterday discussed this issues and interviewed Landis. Landis wants to have a good relationship with Lance, but it's Lance's choice to be hostile towards Landis. I missed the opening parts of the segment so I don't know what Lance's specific problem with Landis is. I don't even know if the segment said what the actual disagreement is. When he pointed at Landis is evidence enough of a riff.
Yeah, I was surprised that Arman Katayin (I know I'm butchering the spelling of his name) didn't really even comment on what the feud was about, and if he asked Lance about it and received a "no comment", or if he simply asked Floyd and not Lance. A strange piece of reporting, to say the least.
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Old 07-11-05, 06:55 PM   #19
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I like Floyd - even more so after reading "Lance Armstrong's War". His menonite background, work ethic, and ability are inspiring.

If LA doesn't win, I would love for Floyd to win.
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