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Old 07-18-05, 06:43 AM   #1
AnthonyG
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I was going to put this question in another post but I thought it would be better to start a new one.

Phil Liggett and Co were claiming that Alexandre was being betrayed by his team because they were the ones chasing him down when he made a break but personally I think they were just making mischief.

I remember the incident where Alexandre had been seriously dropped on a climb but fought his way back on the decent and caught up just in time for the next climb. When the next climb started he attacked straight away and it was Jan and his other team mate who bridged the gap to the scorn of the commentators but realy was Alexandre being for real. Was he realy going to escape anyway and if he could have stuck out the move wouldn't he be grateful for his team mates company and assistance?

Personally I saw it as a bid for minor fame on Alexandre's part rather then a serious move. If he had it in him he could have helped his team mates rather than blowing up.

I don't doubt that there's some rupture in the team but the commentators were just mischief making in my view.

I don't want to sound too down on Alexandre as he's put some excitement into the race and he's certainly giving it his all.

Regards, Anthony
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Old 07-18-05, 07:28 AM   #2
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It's hard to know what to make of Vino's moves. He attacks, he blows up, he recovers, he attacks again. Maybe that is his designated role this year, to try to disrupt Discovery's stranglehold on the front of the peloton on the climbs. Or maybe he is scratching for some personal glory. T-Mobile has three legitimate stars in Kloden, Ullrich and Vinokourov, that's got to lead to some disharmony in establishing a strategy.
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Old 07-18-05, 07:48 AM   #3
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Hes in the final year of his contract as well. Vino that is. You begin to wonder, once he got gapped on stage 10 if he was going to just make a bunch a suicide attacks to see if any of them stuck(ie. stage 11), and in the process show prospective teams like Disco his power and capability.

One thing is for sure. The T-Mob team has looked ENTIRELY unorganized in thier assualt on Lance and team Disco. How much of this was poor planning or just an inabilty to execute against the best rider and team in the TdF is just a guessing game.
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Old 07-18-05, 07:51 AM   #4
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Vino is lame.
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Old 07-18-05, 07:59 AM   #5
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Vino is a maverick - I like that. I hope that Discovery picks him up for next year. Having said that, he might be hurting himself in that he might not be perceived to be a team player.
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Old 07-18-05, 08:25 AM   #6
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Vino is a maverick - I like that. I hope that Discovery picks him up for next year. Having said that, he might be hurting himself in that he might not be perceived to be a team player.
I agree with everything you said. I like him, I'd love to see him on Discovery, and I think he's hurting his image in this TdF. The question I haven't seen asked, is he a better overall rider than Ullrich? Certainly more aggressive, not sure if he's a better TdF rider overall.
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Old 07-18-05, 08:33 AM   #7
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I agree with everything you said. I like him, I'd love to see him on Discovery, and I think he's hurting his image in this TdF. The question I haven't seen asked, is he a better overall rider than Ullrich? Certainly more aggressive, not sure if he's a better TdF rider overall.
That is a very interesting question, and I am not sure of the answer. I must admit that Ullrich is one tough son of a gun. He seems to have an incredible fighting spirit, and as much as I want Lance to win, I would love to see Jan make it a contest (or Vino for that matter). Those two guys are the types who will continue to generate interest in the TDF when Lance is busy counting his cash.
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Old 07-18-05, 08:53 AM   #8
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I would say Jan is still the better rider overall, but Vino is definitely the future. How long does Jan want to keep riding for? He is getting older. I guess he could end up like Ekimov and ride forever.
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Old 07-18-05, 09:07 AM   #9
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I would say Jan is still the better rider overall, but Vino is definitely the future. How long does Jan want to keep riding for? He is getting older. I guess he could end up like Ekimov and ride forever.

Vino's 32 in September. He's no youngster either.
f

edit: Jan will be 32 in December. He's actually older than Vino.
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Old 07-18-05, 09:08 AM   #10
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Vino is one classy rider. Like Basso he is able to change his rhythm on hard climbs and unlike Ulrich who just diesels along. I remember his great win at Gap (the stage where Beloki fell and Lance did his cyclocross thing), he opened up a 100m gap in the blink of an eye. If only he can be like Pantani, accelerate 3 times in a row and blow everyone on his wheel...

He is a team player. Before he went on a suicidal attack yesterday, he clearly asked for Ulrich's permission. Ulrich gave a nod before he went.
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Old 07-18-05, 09:10 AM   #11
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Vino is one classy rider. Like Basso he is able to change his rhythm on hard climbs and unlike Ulrich who just diesels along. I remember his great win at Gap (the stage where Beloki fell and Lance did his cyclocross thing), he opened up a 100m gap in the blink of an eye. If only he can be like Pantani, accelerate 3 times in a row and blow everyone on his wheel...

He is a team player. Before he went on a suicidal attack yesterday, he clearly asked for Ulrich's permission. Ulrich gave a nod before he went.

he definately opened up the race with that second attack. he singlehandedly blew apart the pack. I would have loved to see him be able to maintain it.
f
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Old 07-18-05, 09:13 AM   #12
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Vino got hosed by Ulrich. If the plan was to use Vino to attack Lance why the hell did Jan drag Lance back up to Vino? If the plan was to make LA work Jan should have stayed on LA's wheel while he chased down Vino. It's obvious that Kloden also worked against Vino to help Jan.

eblaska if you think Vino is lame you know nothing about him or bike racing. Vino has won some big races and did it with guts and courage. Disco would get a great classics rider and guy who can blow the peleton apart with his aggressive nature. Vino is far from lame he is a freakin' stud!
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Old 07-18-05, 09:23 AM   #13
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Vino got hosed by Ulrich. If the plan was to use Vino to attack Lance why the hell did Jan drag Lance back up to Vino? If the plan was to make LA work Jan should have stayed on LA's wheel while he chased down Vino. It's obvious that Kloden also worked against Vino to help Jan.

eblaska if you think Vino is lame you know nothing about him or bike racing. Vino has won some big races and did it with guts and courage. Disco would get a great classics rider and guy who can blow the peleton apart with his aggressive nature. Vino is far from lame he is a freakin' stud!
Amen! Vino brings excitement to something that can sometimes be a rather boring spectator sport. All of the excitement doesn't have to be in the last few seconds - Vino brings that to the table.
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Old 07-18-05, 09:33 AM   #14
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Vino got hosed by Ulrich. If the plan was to use Vino to attack Lance why the hell did Jan drag Lance back up to Vino? If the plan was to make LA work Jan should have stayed on LA's wheel while he chased down Vino. It's obvious that Kloden also worked against Vino to help Jan.

It's unclear on Saturday why Ulrich brought Lance back up to Vino. Perhaps Jan did it because there was a communication problem and Vino did not attack at the agreed moment or perhaps Vino simply felt strong at the time.

Yesterday, it was clear that there was no misunderstanding. Before Vino attacked and blew apart the group, he went beside Ulrich and asked.

In the Dauphiné Libéré, the race before the start of the Tour, Vino attacked Lance and I remember clearly that Lance had a pretty hard time before bridging the gap. It's a quite unbelievable the difference that 2 weeks can make.
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Old 07-18-05, 01:35 PM   #15
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If the plan was to make LA work Jan should have stayed on LA's wheel while he chased down Vino.
That's the crux of it right there. These guys plus Basso, Rasmussen - they need to isolate LA and attack him until he can't respond. Like wolves on a bear. I want to see Lance lose - he's had six, he's in history - now lets see that he is not unbeatable. Otherwise all conversations forward regarding future winners will be "yeah, but he couldn't beat Lance." That's boring. But it's true, no one can beat him at this point. They've got to work together until someone gets a shot at it.

I love Vino for his Death or Glory attacks. He's got guts, and he's a hell of a downhiller.
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Old 07-18-05, 04:26 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by plin
It's unclear on Saturday why Ulrich brought Lance back up to Vino. Perhaps Jan did it because there was a communication problem and Vino did not attack at the agreed moment or perhaps Vino simply felt strong at the time.

Yesterday, it was clear that there was no misunderstanding. Before Vino attacked and blew apart the group, he went beside Ulrich and asked.

In the Dauphiné Libéré, the race before the start of the Tour, Vino attacked Lance and I remember clearly that Lance had a pretty hard time before bridging the gap. It's a quite unbelievable the difference that 2 weeks can make.

Yeah I guess that it was a communication problem although I would still have had more sympathy for Vinokourov if he could have stayed with his team rather than quickly blowing up. It's good to see him liven it up anyway.

Regards, Anthony
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Old 07-18-05, 05:52 PM   #17
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Hi there,
in German media the statement of T-Mobile was:
TV in the team car was broken down and they admit that there might have been communication problems. Mario Kummer said that the plan was that Jan should follow Vino but he didn't first and then tried to close the gap again.
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Old 07-18-05, 06:26 PM   #18
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Hi there,
in German media the statement of T-Mobile was:
TV in the team car was broken down and they admit that there might have been communication problems. Mario Kummer said that the plan was that Jan should follow Vino but he didn't first and then tried to close the gap again.
I was wondering if something like that was the plan. When Vino joined the group maybe he was supposed to lead out another tough attack with Kloden and Jan in tow. But no one went with Vino initially. Then Kloden and Jan went after him. But Vino gassed out anyways. It would have been very interesting if all 3 T-Mobile guys stayed together up that climb...
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Old 07-18-05, 06:34 PM   #19
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Jan should not have chase Vino down, it was bad tatics all around. It hurt both of them and helped Lance, just a plan bad move all around. You simply don't chase down a teammate who is on a break. You wheel suck to him. It was a bad team and tatics move by T-Mobile. And if Jan could not figure that out that probably explains why he has not beaten Lance.

On a side note why would Vino go for minor fame, he won BLB this year alone has been on the podium of the TDF and have a very good history in general. Really minor fame of an attack, I don't think so.
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Old 07-18-05, 06:45 PM   #20
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Jan should not have chase Vino down, it was bad tatics all around. It hurt both of them and helped Lance, just a plan bad move all around. You simply don't chase down a teammate who is on a break. You wheel suck to him. It was a bad team and tatics move by T-Mobile. And if Jan could not figure that out that probably explains why he has not beaten Lance.

On a side note why would Vino go for minor fame, he won BLB this year alone has been on the podium of the TDF and have a very good history in general. Really minor fame of an attack, I don't think so.
I don't think Vino's "attack" was going anywhere period. He had been dropped before and had to ride like hell on a downhill and still had trouble making contact with that group. Then he goes on an "attack". He got 30 meters ahead and then cracked again. Its not like the guy was motoring up the mountain. He blew up up and went right out the back of that group, again. Some people are making it sound like he was 2 minutes up the road and the T-Mobile guys tracked him down with Lance, Basso, and Rasmussen in tow.

Vino was behind everyone in that group. And wasn't putting any time on any of them. Why do you think that none of the other guys reacted to Vino's "attack"? I'm more inclined to believe that he was supposed to lead out and either Kloden and Jan didn't get the word until to late or Vino led out a little to strong and gapped them.

Lance was marking Jan and Basso. And unless Vino or Rasmussen showed that they were going to rocket up the mountian ahead of the stiff pace they were already keeping, Lance was not worried about them.
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Old 07-18-05, 11:52 PM   #21
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i love vino's agressive style. there have been wispers of him wanting to go to discovery, but i dont think that will happen. he seems like too much of a loose cannon to fit into discoovery's tight discipline and role playing. hincappie is their man for the classics and popavich is they guy they are going to try to build a grand tour dynasty out of like they did with lance. which, if you ask me, leaves little room for a guy like Vino.
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Old 07-19-05, 12:05 AM   #22
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i love vino's agressive style. there have been wispers of him wanting to go to discovery, but i dont think that will happen. he seems like too much of a loose cannon to fit into discoovery's tight discipline and role playing. hincappie is their man for the classics and popavich is they guy they are going to try to build a grand tour dynasty out of like they did with lance. which, if you ask me, leaves little room for a guy like Vino.
Very insightful, I agree totally.

Vino has to get out of T-Moblie though, that's a given. Going to Discovery would do nothing for him.
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Old 07-19-05, 12:05 AM   #23
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Have you guys forgot that Vino has won a stage THIS TdF? The only glory for TMob so far this tour(probably for the whole tour).
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Old 07-19-05, 12:11 AM   #24
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Have you guys forgot that Vino has won a stage THIS TdF? The only glory for TMob so far this tour(probably for the whole tour).

If Ullrich had lost 6 minutes on one climb, they may have let him win a stage too.
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Old 07-19-05, 12:26 AM   #25
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Have you guys forgot that Vino has won a stage THIS TdF? The only glory for TMob so far this tour(probably for the whole tour).
No. I think the criticism of Vino/Jan/T-Mobile comes from the expectations/hopes that they will challenge for the overall win. Not just stages wins. And the frustration of the Tour being the same old story year after year. Look at it this way. Vino has a win and rides very aggressively. But before yesterday's stage he still trailed 2 of his teammates(Ullrich and Kloden) on GC. Heck, they've got 3 guys in the top ten GC.

Realistically, I don't think that there is anything else that T-Mobile, Jan, and Vino could do to unseat Lance and Discovery. Hincapie won a mountain stage for cripes sake. These last few stages have been a series of attacks on Lance to no avail. If you take Lance out of the picture, we're talking about T-Mobile as having one of the best TdF teams ever.

I hope that this T-MOB squad stays together one more year just to see what happens in the next Tour. If Ullrich is in the shape he's in now and with Vino and Kloden, it could be real interesting for Basso.
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