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Old 07-19-05, 11:19 AM   #1
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So many people have been commenting on how T-mobile et all and Basso are letting Lance win. Personally, it seems to me that Levi and Landis are doing the same. They only seem to be out for the ride. I haven't seen either of them give a good attack other than a few weak counters here and there.

Levi wanted to finish on the podium. I didn't think it was possible with Lance, Ullrich and Basso being too strong, but I thought he would get a top 5 finish. He is really needs to have a good TT.
Your thoughts?
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Old 07-19-05, 11:21 AM   #2
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I think they are both having the rides of their lives. I am surprised that Landis is even in the top 10.
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Old 07-19-05, 12:33 PM   #3
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They are both having good tours... Landis managed to do something despite having no support and Levi is doing great despite Georg being named the GC man...
They managed to cut their losses when riding with the big 4.. They usually dropped once the tempo got too hot and rode at their own pace so as to not kill themselves..
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Old 07-19-05, 12:44 PM   #4
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They are doing great but my own personal expectations of both of them was higher. I would have liked to see them attacking more. Although naming Totschnig is a mistake by his team. He is like 30 min behind Levi. I really thought the idea of having 2 Americans on the podium would have been amazing and nice if we had 2 in the top 5.
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Old 07-19-05, 12:55 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by jitteringjr
They are doing great but my own personal expectations of both of them was higher. I would have liked to see them attacking more. Although naming Totschnig is a mistake by his team. He is like 30 min behind Levi. I really thought the idea of having 2 Americans on the podium would have been amazing and nice if we had 2 in the top 5.
I think Totschnig had a knee problem or something the first week, whihc is the reason he lost time...
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Old 07-19-05, 01:06 PM   #6
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I think Totschnig had a knee problem or something the first week, whihc is the reason he lost time...
Maybe, but I think Levi is the stronger rider as far as GC is concerned. Although Georg had a nice break away day on Saturday. Good to see him get a win.
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Old 07-19-05, 01:10 PM   #7
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Levi and Totschnig were co-leaders at the start, and he himself said his goal was a top 5 finish. He's a much better TT'er than Mancebo, so odds are he finishes 5th, and he's notably better on the climbs than the last two years. Landis is leading a team in a grand tour for the first time and is likely to finish 6th (better TT'er than Evans, MUCH better TT'er than Mancebo) or 7th. So, all in all, they've both put in really amazing rides - they've been with the big guns on the climbs almost every time until nearly the end. What exactly were those of you who are "disappointed" expecting? Did you honestly think Levi and Floyd would finish ahead of Basso and Ullrich? I like them both, but that's a stretch. So...the best we could've hoped for was 4th and 5th, and they're pretty close to that.

Let's step back a second, though, and look at the bigger picture. Barring disaster, there will be THREE AMERICANS in the TOP TEN at the Tour, FIVE in the TOP TWENTY (Julich and Hincapie are 17th and 18th), along with two US riders (Zabriskie, Hincapie) winning stages (and, oh, man, by just 200m, almost Horner, too!) and a likely podium guy (Hamilton) not there. A truly unbelievable performance by our guys.

So, am I disappointed? Mais non...
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Old 07-19-05, 01:15 PM   #8
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I've heard L&L described as "pseudo stage racers", meaning that about the only thing they're good at is getting decent GC positions in stage races (without winning anything of significance). So far, pretty accurate, IMO (though I'm fond of both and glad to see the USA represent!).
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Old 07-19-05, 01:23 PM   #9
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Watching the races progress is so intimidating. When the pace increases, I am astonished to see the best names in professional cycling being dropped out the back! These are the same people who put the hurt on just about everyone else in the world. Yet they're being dropped of the back because they can't keep up with the TDF leaders.

With that said, the fact that Levi and Floyd have kept in contact and have even remained in the top ten is an incredible achievement for any professional cyclist.

To put it into context, just look at the roster of names that have NOT made the TOP 50 GC positions. Even the people who have not made the time limits is an impressive list.

Phonak and Gerolsteiner have every reason to be proud of their GC riders.
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Old 07-19-05, 01:27 PM   #10
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Considering Landis has never finished higher than 23rd, I think he's ridden way above himself.
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Old 07-19-05, 02:26 PM   #11
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Considering that the first American rode in the Tour in 1981, and there have only been 31 ever to ride in the Tour to date - having 5 in the top 20 this year would be an awesome accomplishment.

As long as Landis finishes in the top 10-12 and Levi finishes in the top 6 or 7 (which both should do, barring crashes or illness), I can't imagine anyone could call their performances "disappointing".
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Old 07-19-05, 02:34 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MSC
Did you honestly think Levi and Floyd would finish ahead of Basso and Ullrich?
Not really but I had hopes.


Quote:
Originally Posted by MSC
Let's step back a second, though, and look at the bigger picture. Barring disaster, there will be THREE AMERICANS in the TOP TEN at the Tour, FIVE in the TOP TWENTY (Julich and Hincapie are 17th and 18th), along with two US riders (Zabriskie, Hincapie) winning stages (and, oh, man, by just 200m, almost Horner, too!) and a likely podium guy (Hamilton) not there. A truly unbelievable performance by our guys.
Cheers to that.

OK maybe disapointed is too strong of a word, but I still would have liked to see them be more aggressive. My disapointment is from a fans stand point, not a stand point of thier performance. More attacks by them would have made the race even more exciting and it has been great so far.


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Originally Posted by Laggard
Considering Landis has never finished higher than 23rd, I think he's ridden way above himself.
Saying what Landis best performance in the tour so far means nothing as he was doing his job perfectly before by supporting Lance and not being concerned with his GC performance.


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Originally Posted by Allen H
As long as Landis finishes in the top 10-12 and Levi finishes in the top 6 or 7 (which both should do, barring crashes or illness), I can't imagine anyone could call their performances "disappointing".
I felt they were better than that. Still do. One can argue that not riding up to one's potential is "disappointing" to at least the rider himself.
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Old 07-19-05, 02:47 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by jitteringjr
I felt they were better than that. Still do. One can argue that not riding up to one's potential is "disappointing" to at least the rider himself.
Given that this is Landis' first year on a new team (and he's not the clearcut leader of his team), and Levi isn't the clearcut leader of his team (even though perhaps he should be) - I think podium finishes were almost "beyond our wildest dreams" wishes - especially as long as there's Lance, Basso, and Ulrich in front of them.

Now next year......
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Old 07-19-05, 02:48 PM   #14
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More attacks = More blowups/cracks.

They are as high as they are because they are riding smart, not pushing themselves in unreasonable attacks with no hope of success. If you notice they have been "dropped" relatively early on the real hard climbs, but have settled into a groove to limit their losses, an early/hard attack would have made them drop their pace much earlier, and possibly put them over the edge towards a complete crack.
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Old 07-19-05, 02:51 PM   #15
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What Saiz had to say was interesting.

He described long-term Tour hope Contador as being “in the Tour’s fourth rank. The first contains Armstrong, Basso and Ullrich. The second is Mancebo, Landis and company. The third is Kloeden, Moreau, Jaksche, Zubeldia, etc. Contador is very close to that third rank, as he has shown by his third place in the best young rider competition behind Popovych and Kashechkin, who are both three years older than him.”

I disagree with him slightly in that I see Landis as a third rank rider.
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Old 07-19-05, 03:24 PM   #16
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I keep hearing about riders not riding to their potential. I think the riders are riding to their potential. Levi, and Landis are busy trying not to get dropped. It is hard to attack when the GC leaders are dropping you at a tempo pace. Just because someone finishes 10th, or 35th doesn't mean they are slacking. It could be there are 9 or 34 other riders better than they are. If for instance Levi finishes 3rd will we say the 4th place finisher is not riding to his potential? If I somehow managed to join the TDF field no matter how hard I pushed, attacked, rode, and trained I would finish last. It would not matter if I rode till I puked everyday I would still finish last.

In a stage race as long as the TDF the cream will always rise to the top. It is too brutal of a race for a pretender to win it. The winner of the race is the best no matter how hard the other riders push.

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Old 07-19-05, 05:59 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jitteringjr
So many people have been commenting on how T-mobile et all and Basso are letting Lance win. Personally, it seems to me that Levi and Landis are doing the same. They only seem to be out for the ride. I haven't seen either of them give a good attack other than a few weak counters here and there.

Levi wanted to finish on the podium. I didn't think it was possible with Lance, Ullrich and Basso being too strong, but I thought he would get a top 5 finish. He is really needs to have a good TT.
Your thoughts?
I'm not disappointed in either of them, not in the least.

Landis simply is not podium-worthy, so I don't feel that 7th or 8th could be disappointing.

Leipheimer is in 5th place, which is excellent. He knows his limitations, and those include not being able to hang with- let alone attack- Armstrong in the mountains (unless Armstrong has a bad day.) Neither of these guys ever had a chance to beat Lance, Basso, or Ullrich unless those 3 have problems.
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Old 07-19-05, 09:57 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by 97 Teran

Leipheimer is in 5th place, which is excellent.
Actually Levi is in 6th. . His best chance to gain time is the final TT. He needs to gain almost 4:30 on Rasmussen and is 1:34 behind Mancebo. Forget him putting time into Ullrich or Lance. He might put some time into Basso, but it will probably be 30 sec at the most and he is almost 5 min behind him.

Both Mancebo and Rasmussen did poorly on the opening TT so I guess if Levi has a banner day, he could move up 1 or 2, but Rasmussen is a little too far ahead.

The only other day of interest to the overall GC is Thursday finishing at top of a cat 2. Hopefully Landis and Levi have strong legs that day.

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Old 07-19-05, 10:32 PM   #19
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Top 10, hell Top 20 in the hardest race in the world is pretty damn good. Yes Lance has brought a lot of attn to the tour, but he is spoiling all these new fans with his total domination.
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Old 07-19-05, 10:42 PM   #20
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Top 10, hell Top 20 in the hardest race in the world is pretty damn good.
Of course it is, but your are still missing my point. Do you think Lance would be satisfied with 2nd? Of course not because his ability is to be #1.
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Old 07-19-05, 10:50 PM   #21
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And you are missing the point.

Landis is not a TdF podium caliber rider....wether you think so or not...
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Old 07-19-05, 11:00 PM   #22
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And you are missing the point.

Landis is not a TdF podium caliber rider....wether you think so or not...
Sorry Zap but, I never said that about Floyd. Levi said he wanted to finish on the podium. Levi could have placed on the podium though if the stars all aligned right and it would have been great but I never expected more than a top 5 out of him.
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Old 07-20-05, 11:14 AM   #23
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Hats off to all the riders. They're all amazing atheletes and are a joy to watch while doing their jobs.
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Old 07-20-05, 11:20 AM   #24
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Of course it is, but your are still missing my point. Do you think Lance would be satisfied with 2nd? Of course not because his ability is to be #1.
Armstrong has always been in a whole other world though, compared to all other American cyclists of his generation.

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Top 10, hell Top 20 in the hardest race in the world is pretty damn good. Yes Lance has brought a lot of attn to the tour, but he is spoiling all these new fans with his total domination.
Yeah I think you're right.
There are proven stars... riders that have done excellent rides in the Tour before, that came with high hopes this year, only to be either retired or far further down than Landis and Levi are. The Americans this year have done a great job.
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Old 07-20-05, 11:29 AM   #25
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Yeah I think you're right.
There are proven stars... riders that have done excellent rides in the Tour before, that came with high hopes this year, only to be either retired or far further down than Landis and Levi are. The Americans this year have done a great job.
So do all of you people who are not 'disapointed' think that Levi and Floyd are riding to the best of their ability then? Don't you think Levi could be in 4th now or Landis in 6th or 7th? I think they could be and thus they are not living up to their potential. It is just my opinion but that is what I am saying.
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