Hipcycler

Why?

Why were team bosses so quick to pull Basso and Jan?
Why didn't they challenge this like Vino's team?

All this advertiser/sponsor money on the line and they reacted swiftly by pulling them off the team the day before the race starts? I don't get that part of this.

Also, the timing of the release of the name is suspicous....field now a little more favorable to a Spaniard?

BryE

All the teams signed an agreement that they would pull any rider who's involved in a doping investigation, regardless of whether that particular rider has been convicted or not. They're just honoring their agreement.

As for the timing, I recall something about UCI wanting the names of the riders involved "before the start of the Tour". It's a bit last-minute, but that time frame was met. I doubt it has anything to do with national favoritism - the same riders would have been on that list if it had come out months ago.

Frankly, I think this is all good. I'm disappointed to see Ullrich go out this way and I would have liked to see Basso's attempt at a Giro-Tour double, but this year's tour will be a chance for lesser (and presumably clean, but I'm quite cynical about everyone in the peloton) riders to have a chance where otherwise there'd be none.

jjmolyet

will he stil be considered winner of the giro?

'nother

I was having the same thoughts on my ride this morning. I thought, "any publicity is good publicity" and had to wonder whether the Tour organizers might not have been thinking about the absence of LA this year, this certainly is going to draw some attention. My guess is that within a few years we will have discovered that this thing is even bigger than it already looks.

BryE

Don't bet money on this information or anything, but I think they'll only strip his win if they can prove he was doping at that time. For now, he hasn't even been convicted - he's just implicated in an ongoing investigation. For all we know, he may be proven clean in the end (unlikely, but it could happen).

bigskymacadam

With Riis' emotional blah-dibbly-blah he didn't want Basso competing with this hangin' over his shoulder day after day. It would be hard to defend your GC standings and the defend yourself in the investigation at the same time.

fruitless

These guys got caught, really caught, like caught with their bibs around their ankles. Phone taps, video, coded blood bags with the keys to the codes, detailed doping schedules for individual athletes. I think that with the mountain of evidence in the possession of the spanish courts its only a matter of time before someone starts talking in return for accomodations and then the whole thing is going to get even bigger. I see the DS's of all the teams involved going down sometime soon.

TCNJCyclist

There are Spaniards left in the field? I was looking at the list that VeloNews published and 26 of the riders were from Spain.

EURO

Hipcycler - please grow up. This is a police investigation into the sale of illegal doping products. It would have to be a pretty wide-ranging conspiracy if the Spanish police were in league with a few Valverde fans to get him to win the race. It hardly does much for the reputation of SPanish cycling now does it - as it seems to be clear that many pros went specifically to Spain for their products.

Hipcycler

....And your thoughts about my first question?
I just threw the timing issue out there for discussion.

Lets keep the personal attacks out of this and have a legit discussion, that's all I ask EURO.

If there was some sort of agreement like another person posted here, then how come the Vino fight then? Why didn't they just dump him as fast as Jan and Basso were dumped?

merlinextraligh

1) as pointed out, they signed an agreement, 2) better to throw the accussed riders under the bus and act dismayed by these rogues, than to contest something you know you'll lose, get the whole team kicked out, and look bad when the rider you stuck up for is proved to be a doper. Much easier to throw the "isolated cheater" under the bus.

gmason

Not to put too fine a point on it, but this is not a TdF scandal. It is a drug scandal in Spain.

'nother

I took Hip's post to mean that the "suspicious" timing of it pretty much makes it a TdF scandal (in addition to a drug scandal in Spain).

Hipcycler

Yeah I know...

So the tone I am getting here is that you guys really believe that Jan and Ivan were up to no good?
I guess I am still in the camp of innocent until proven guilty.

Hipcycler

Yes.

I'm just sad about the fact that fans like me are being cheated out of seeing those two duke it out to be the new king this year.

PedalMasher

Well hip, the facts are:

Fact: The doctor arrested has detailed doping records of several athletes already suspended - Heras/Hamilton that we know of and probably includes detailed doping records of others.

Fact: Ullrich/Sevilla (Basso info hasn't been published yet) have had contact with the doctor to the point that T-Mobile said there is irrefutable evidence that Jan lied.

Fact: None of the implicated riders were clamoring for a DNA test. I know Jan was for a time, then it petered out. You don't hear him clamoring for a DNA test today and either is Basso. hmmmm....

How can you not come to the conclusion that Ullrich is directly involved? If it was my last chance to win the tour de france with the millions in endorsements at stake and have dedicated my season to it, why wouldn't you be clamoring for a DNA test that could have been done weeks ago if you were really clean?

Or to put another way, do you think Ullrich/Sevilla just happened to be in the neighborhood when they got a nasty sinus infection and decided to see this doctor?

Hipcycler

Jan said he doesn't even know the doc.

It's hard for me to imagine that these athletes work as hard as they do, then do something this incredibly stupid that could see it all thrown away in the blink of an eye.

IF it's true, they're not as smart as I thought.

Still, if I am correct here, neither one has tested positive for anything.
But you make a great point.
If it was me and it wasn't true, I'd call the media together today and drop my pants right there and pee in a cup and hand it to them. Here....test it.

PedalMasher

Well that's why Jan is suspended. He signed an affadavit that he had no contact with the doctor. I'm thinking the irrefutable evidence is videotape, I mean, they got Sevilla on videotape (purportedly), why not Jan?

PedalMasher

I agree, I would have started drinking tons of water the moment the director sportif came walking towards me with head hanging low to deliver the news.

Maybe we're simplifying a bit, but why wouldn't they have done something like this weeks ago when the rumors were flying?

CyLowe97

Hip, Do you recall Liberty Seguros yanking their millions of dollars of sponsorship when this scandal first hit? They had had enough of their corporate name attached to cheating, especially after Heras shame in the Vuelta last year.

Phonak's not coming back as a lead sponsor next year, as they were attached to several scandals

CSC, T-Mobile, etc., all pay MILLIONS of dollars for these guys to win. It seems they turn a blind eye if their riders are not caught, but once the evidence is there, they have to treat this like any corporation would. Put the employee (read: rider) on suspension to show that they are TOUGH ON CRIME and that they are a GOOD ANTI-DOPING CORPORATION.

It's about $$$$, man. It's just that the light is supposed to be GOOD publicity, not cheating publicity. If the benfactors of cycling demand a cleaner sport and back it up by suspending their own employees for infractions, then the sport benefits in the long run.

Hipcycler

CyLowe...

Yes, but by doing that, the corporate types are simply putting the riders up for slaughter for the good of the sport....whether or not they did anything wrong? This better be really good proof they have on these guys. What if.....just what if....they didn't do anything wrong?! This is terrible all the way around.

I've been thinking about this all day long.
Well, at least I'm passionate about something.

CyLowe97

Think of it this way...

A cop is accused of abusing a suspect. No evidence he did it, right? But what's the first thing that happens? They take him off the beat and put him on desk duty, or perhaps suspend-with-pay.

Or... A teacher is accused of violating a student's rights in a high school. First thing that happens: that teacher is removed from classroom to stop the sh*tstorm that immediately brews.

Same principle with these Tour riders. It's just gotten so bad that the teams HAVE TO suspend them, or risk looking like they don't care about the greater good. It's not a fair system, but most things in life aren't fair, especially when playing by someone else's rules.

Devil

Sorry, there are no what-ifs involved in this. All of them were/are on drugs. Read up on your cycling history.

BryE

From what I understand, they have mountains of evidence. Videotapes, tapped telephone conversations, invoices for payments, ... not to mention the most damning evidence of all: DNA in the form of blood intended for transfusion.

These riders have been caught with their bibs around their ankles.

SoonerBent

We haven't seen the all the actual evidence. They have. I don't think the team directors would pull the Tour favorites without a fight unless the evidence they've been given is pretty clear. The teams want a Tour win about as much as the riders do.

SB