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  1. #26
    a blend of wit and charm Moochers_Dad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by koffee brown
    I just had some unfortunate encounter with the guy- made me not stand him. He's so friggin pompous, and I haven't seen any other personality but that since then, that's all.

    Koffee
    Tell us more!

    He sucks.

    I remember after the 2006 Paris - Nice TT, he was so smug and pompous and said something like "I didn't even train all winter but I live my life as a professional cyclist, so that's why I won." Please.

    Naturally, I was thinking if he didn't train all winter then he's a fool; and good luck recovering each day. Then he started to slip in the standings and dropped out of the race on the last day.

    I should note that I didn't follow the race close enough; so I don't know if he had some other problem that would cause him to abandon. A problem other than just plain sucking.

  2. #27
    randomness inc. HDTVKSS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by koffee brown
    It wasn't weird for me. I haven't liked him for a few years now. Washed up has been. He knows it.

    Koffee
    So, what does that make all the washed up never was's that occupy these forums? you know, those people that see fit to comment on a culture and situation they have never experienced themselves, but instead feel fit to comment on from an armchair, at best amature perspective?
    You don't need proof when you have instinct.
    Im on the Floyd Landis Jack Daniels training program.

  3. #28
    Senior Member erader's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HDTVKSS
    So, what does that make all the washed up never was's that occupy these forums? you know, those people that see fit to comment on a culture and situation they have never experienced themselves, but instead feel fit to comment on from an armchair, at best amature perspective?

    didn't bobby julich's commentary come from an amrchair... ?

    hell if can do it so can i .

    ed rader

    here's your boy BJ climbing the first hill at the amgen TT and coming right at me ...........




  4. #29
    Now Racer Ex Vinokurtov's Avatar
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    Koffee, sorry he didn't kiss your tail when you met him, but your comments are pretty ignorant. Few "washed up has beens" win Paris Nice and the Criterium International the year prior. And a bronze medal (should have been silver) in the '04 Olympics. He had a pretty OK '05 Tour too...4th on one of the hardest mountain stages (Courchevel - Briançon) and 4th in the final TT.

    Fact is if he was "washed up" wouldn't have been on both the Giro (which he finished and his guy won) AND the Tour CSC team. He's been parcelling his efforts with two grand tours in mind, not riding for personal results. You might not realize it, but that's a huge effort. I wouldn't expect most non racers or casual fans to get that though. If people thought Hincapie was a GC contender, they'll think most anything. It's way beyond the casual fan to understand training cycles, peaks, and things that can go wrong.

    As far as defending the jersey, he's had teammates in the yellow several times, so he might have some insight. And he's said flat out on several many that his days as a TDF GC contender are over.

    He happens to live around the corner from me and trains here, he's got a very good rep around town. I've spoken with him at length, and found him very focused, not surprising given the demands of the profession. Pompous? Hardly.

  5. #30
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    I think Julich has a point -- even if he made it a little too strongly.

    Remember how Thomas Volker worked so hard 2 years ago to keep the yellow jersey. What a valiant fight he put up? Giving up a 30 minute lead looks a little different from that perspective. If Landis dominates in the Alps and TT it will all be considered "worth it" or "brilliant" depending on your perspective.

    No matter what it takes a little luster off the accomplishment if Landis wins -- especially if he does it without winning a stage. After all, Lance always felt like he needed to win at least one stage to make his win look "honorable".

    I hope Landis rides great and pulls out the win in an exciting manner, but if he doesn't I expect that someday he'll regret that he didn't work harder to wear it a "little longer". Just like Julich would probably give anything to have worn it "even one day".



    p.s. Very diplomatic of Eddie Merx, but does anyone think for a minute he would have done the same thing? He would have been trying to win the sprint!

  6. #31
    Senior Member roadwarrior's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by walkman
    I think Julich has a point -- even if he made it a little too strongly.

    Remember how Thomas Volker worked so hard 2 years ago to keep the yellow jersey. What a valiant fight he put up? Giving up a 30 minute lead looks a little different from that perspective. If Landis dominates in the Alps and TT it will all be considered "worth it" or "brilliant" depending on your perspective.
    Voeckler knew he was not going to win in Paris against Lance. He used up so much juice on the road that, when it was all said and done he ended up not even winning the "Best Young Rider" jersey and ended up with a lot of memories. Applaud his efforts, but you have to keep your eye on the big picture.

    Look, Lelangue knows and Landis knows how good their team is...I've done stage racing, not anything remotely like this, but 3-4 days long. You train to make deposts to your checking account, and while riding/racing you are only making withdrawals. The trick is to have enough in the account to get you to the end. As experienced in multiple disciplines as Landis is (remember, even Lance, Eddy, and Miguel had to win their first, and each time for each one, nobody believed they'd pull it off as there were more experienced, better stage racers than them in the race) he and the team knows what they have left in the bank.

    Also, remember that "hindsight" is always 20-20...
    Last edited by roadwarrior; 07-17-06 at 04:28 AM.
    "Nothing is so typical of middling minds than to harp on the intellectual deficiencies of the slightly less smart, but considerably more successful."
    Bret Stephens, WSJ

  7. #32
    Senior Member roadwarrior's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vinokurtov
    Koffee, sorry he didn't kiss your tail when you met him, but your comments are pretty ignorant. Few "washed up has beens" win Paris Nice and the Criterium International the year prior. And a bronze medal (should have been silver) in the '04 Olympics. He had a pretty OK '05 Tour too...4th on one of the hardest mountain stages (Courchevel - Briançon) and 4th in the final TT.
    Yep...his career was totally in the dumper, he had no real results for a long time, then, presto, he goes with Riis and starts getting great results...

    hmmmm.....I have always been surprised that the "Bike Forums Doping Control Experts" never jumped on that. I read it out here that everybody does it...and anytime a rider suddenly starts getting results after a long period of not doing so.....

    "Nothing is so typical of middling minds than to harp on the intellectual deficiencies of the slightly less smart, but considerably more successful."
    Bret Stephens, WSJ

  8. #33
    me have long head tube TallRider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by roadwarrior
    Yep...his career was totally in the dumper, he had no real results for a long time, then, presto, he goes with Riis and starts getting great results...
    hmmmm.....I have always been surprised that the "Bike Forums Doping Control Experts" never jumped on that. I read it out here that everybody does it...and anytime a rider suddenly starts getting results after a long period of not doing so.....
    This is very easily explainable without doping. So while he may have switched to doping, there's no specific reason to believe that he did just because he got better. What changed from his two previous teams, compared to CSC, is that with the previous teams he was a super-domestique in that he was riding and racing all the time. Like, 80-100 days a year. No real recovery, and certainly no peaking. And peaking is necessary to win races. With CSC, his racing schedule was lighter, such that he could come up to peak his fitness for certain races. It's a very obvious explanation, and all of the data on this point is there for us to see. So, it doesn't say that he wasn't doping, but his upturn in 2004-05 is not, in and of itself, reason to think that he started doping.

  9. #34
    Senior Member roadwarrior's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by timcupery
    This is very easily explainable without doping. So while he may have switched to doping, there's no specific reason to believe that he did just because he got better. What changed from his two previous teams, compared to CSC, is that with the previous teams he was a super-domestique in that he was riding and racing all the time. Like, 80-100 days a year. No real recovery, and certainly no peaking. And peaking is necessary to win races. With CSC, his racing schedule was lighter, such that he could come up to peak his fitness for certain races. It's a very obvious explanation, and all of the data on this point is there for us to see. So, it doesn't say that he wasn't doping, but his upturn in 2004-05 is not, in and of itself, reason to think that he started doping.
    But....but...everybody dopes...I read it out here!!! It must be true!!

    (for the record, I agree with you...)
    "Nothing is so typical of middling minds than to harp on the intellectual deficiencies of the slightly less smart, but considerably more successful."
    Bret Stephens, WSJ

  10. #35
    meb
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    With hindsight, Phonak’s decision is shown as brilliant. Hunter and Jalabert dropped off the back of the peloton. Sixth place back was 45 seconds outside the 9% finishing cutoff for a coefficient 1 stage. Had Floyd defended the jersey, it would have brought the peloton within the cutoff time-but not Hunter and Jalabert. As more than 20% of the field was being eliminated, the cutoff time was incremented to 10% to prevent eliminating more than 20% of the field. That extra 1% saved Jalabert and Hunter, so had Floyd brought the peloton forward to defend the jersey, Phonak would have lost 2 riders, and Floyd needs all the support he can muster in such a close Tour.

    If anything, the other contending teams should be chided for missing an opportunity at competitively eliminating two of Floyd's domestiques.

  11. #36
    Up on the Down Side CyLowe97's Avatar
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    In his daily video diary out on VeloNews.com, Chris Horner called Phonak's move to lose the MJ a brilliant move.

    Guess it depends on your view within the peloton...

  12. #37
    me have long head tube TallRider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CyLowe97
    In his daily video diary out on VeloNews.com, Chris Horner called Phonak's move to lose the MJ a brilliant move.
    Guess it depends on your view within the peloton...
    And specifically, within the peloton.
    Most people within pro cycling have commended the move. And remember that Horner rides for Davitamon-Lotto, which is supposed to be angry at Phonak for taking the bathroom break to help Friere and Popovych's break get clear, which would force D-L to chase if they wanted to get McEwen a sprint victory.

  13. #38
    RustyTainte substructure's Avatar
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    I may be in the wrong here, but:
    How much actual effort would it have taken to wipe some of the time down and hold on to the yellow?
    The team didn’t have to close the gap that much.

    I think there was more going on in FL’s earbud than most of us realize, yes:
    Strategies
    Tactics
    Etc.

    But, considering what the Phonak team can do in the Peleton, I just wonder.

  14. #39
    Up on the Down Side CyLowe97's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by substructure
    I may be in the wrong here, but:
    How much actual effort would it have taken to wipe some of the time down and hold on to the yellow?
    The team didn’t have to close the gap that much.
    Yeah, but watching the stage, it didn't appear any other teams were really helping at the front. Why should Phonak expend any more effort on a transition stage when they need to be fresh in the Alps.

    If the other teams were concerned, they'd have been up front pushing the pace. Apparently they weren't THAT concerned. We still got a McEwen/Boonen showdown out of it, right? Who cares if that comes 15 minutes or 28 minutes after the stage winner? It's still racing for 4th and 5th place points.

  15. #40
    Dances With Cars TRaffic Jammer's Avatar
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    That sort of kill-your-team-to-keep-MJ went out in the 80's. Races are way to close now to mess around with possibly harming your teams ability to attack in the mountains by busting them on the few flat stages in between. Third in 98....AND writing a column while racing?....you're just bitter BJ.

    Don't forget Landis is riding way beyond injured. He needs his team.
    As for Merx... he's a whole different beast together... he'll try to pee in the morning faster, eat breakfast faster, get to the start first, win the stage, and then off to dinner first.
    Last edited by TRaffic Jammer; 07-17-06 at 09:58 AM.

  16. #41
    Senior Member Keith99's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Braveheart
    I agree - I'll admit I'm a novice at understanding this event - this is my third time watching the event start to finish - but the whole collusionary aspect of this race I think is difficult for Americans to understand, and it was why LA/Discovery/USPS was fun to watch. I think their contribution was to break some of these unfathomable TDF traditions and historic tactics. Haven't heard any reactions from the Texan himself but I would venture to guess that he would never have allowed that breakaway to get half an hour (especially with a potential threat in the group). If you are Phonak/FL then you either a.) think that the group isn't a threat and that you will regain the MJ by Paris, or b.) there's no way that our team has the strength to win by Paris. Either way, why would you want to give up the MJ so easily? If it's a.), what possible incremental benefit do you have in giving up the MJ so easily, or if it's b.), isn't it better to hold on to the MJ as long as possible? I know that team support is important but I don't think it's going to matter much once these guys hit the Alps anyways. If Phonak is weak, Floyd seems to be able to find the wheels of other riders without too much trouble.
    Lance not only would let a group like this get away. He did. Biggest difference is that when Lance and Postal allowed it to happen that were at least 2 riders who had not lost huge chunks of time already, resulting with someone in Yellow with a 20 minute lead. Postal that year was far stronger in a support sense than Phonak is this year.

    In both cases one thing is the same. There is virtually no threat to the final Yellow from members of either breakaway. In both cases The team defending yellow decided the effort was not worth it long term. Neither of these cases is unique, but the degree does seem to disrespect the jersey. It is what one would expect with the way sport in general has gone these past few years.

  17. #42
    Señor Member USAZorro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TRaffic Jammer
    As for Merx... he's a whole different beast together... he'll try to pee in the morning faster, eat breakfast faster, get to the start first, win the stage, and then off to dinner first.

    Not to mention, his son rides for Phonak.
    The search for inner peace continues...

  18. #43
    Dances With Cars TRaffic Jammer's Avatar
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    ^^^^ I bet he stills tries to race his son^^^^^^

  19. #44
    Senior Member Keith99's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by meb
    With hindsight, Phonak’s decision is shown as brilliant. Hunter and Jalabert dropped off the back of the peloton. Sixth place back was 45 seconds outside the 9% finishing cutoff for a coefficient 1 stage. Had Floyd defended the jersey, it would have brought the peloton within the cutoff time-but not Hunter and Jalabert. As more than 20% of the field was being eliminated, the cutoff time was incremented to 10% to prevent eliminating more than 20% of the field. That extra 1% saved Jalabert and Hunter, so had Floyd brought the peloton forward to defend the jersey, Phonak would have lost 2 riders, and Floyd needs all the support he can muster in such a close Tour.

    If anything, the other contending teams should be chided for missing an opportunity at competitively eliminating two of Floyd's domestiques.
    You belong on the mike!

    Seriously this is a major point. Something like this would even justify giving a few more minutes, perhaps even giving enough to make the best placed rider in the break a serious threat to at least podium. I really had been thinking that the turning off of the chase at the end was a bit disrespectful, that the form should have been to go harder and drop out of yellow by a bit less. (Also making it look more like the other team had earned it rather than getting a gift). It did come off at the end like Phonak was not trying at all, rather than like 'were going to try, but not going to risk blowing up'.

  20. #45
    Dances With Cars TRaffic Jammer's Avatar
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    I did not know that.....it's a brilliant move then. No debate required.

  21. #46
    Up on the Down Side CyLowe97's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TRaffic Jammer
    I did not know that.....it's a brilliant move then. No debate required.
    ... Yeah, interesting stuff. I guess the genius of Bjarne Riis failed to tell Bobby J....

  22. #47
    Dances With Cars TRaffic Jammer's Avatar
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    it's been a fun Tour, IMHO.

  23. #48
    Senior Member rufvelo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cranks
    I wonder if Julich found it disrespectful when his teammate Zabriskie fell in the maille jaune. ...!

    You've made THE point! It was shameful that CSC left the yellow jersey lying on the road that time. How did it look this year for Gontchar all pretty in yellow to be fetching water bottles for his team? Landis on the other hand looked very dignified, very much in control in yellow.

  24. #49
    RustyTainte substructure's Avatar
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    No doubt, the tour is beyond words.

  25. #50
    Style-challenged platypus's Avatar
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    the point about the cutoff time being extended is HUGE. I hadn't realized that was the situation, and it makes Phonak's control of the peloton 2 days ago even more brilliant than I had at first suspected.

    Disrespect for the MJ? Hardly! Phonak was using the advantages of having the MJ to the fullest.

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