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  1. #26
    Senior Member Sea Green Sky's Avatar
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    Mark Sisson on Steroids in Sports

    Very good article on doping and drugs in sports from the former Anti-doping Commissioner of the International Triathlon Union:

    http://www.arthurdevany.com/archives...sisson_on.html

  2. #27
    meb
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    Quote Originally Posted by traildragon
    I've posted this response already in another thread, but here goes again:

    People, are we NOT LISTENING?! This all doesn't make sense. I'm sure the B test will match the A test, Floyd himself said he expects that. The epitestosterone isn't a performance enhancing or de-hancing drug, so the fact that his testosterone level was relatively low, but his testosterone/epitestosterone RATIO was high means, and trust me here, I'm a mathematician, that his epitestosterone level had to be way low. How is THAT doping?
    Your math is right. It is doping because WADA defined a non-complying ratio as indicative of doping. Floyd or his endocrinologist may have underdosed the levothyroxine resulting in insufficient epiteststerone in his body. If he isn't taking enough medications to maintain normal epitestoerone levels, he fails the doping test.

  3. #28
    Banned. Helmet Head's Avatar
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    It is my understanding that a natural increase in Testosterone (such as might occur from a huge effort on Stage 17) would also increase the levles of epitestosterone (a natural precursor to Testosterone), and, thus, the T/E ratio would not appear abnormal.

    However, Floyd's hypothyroidism is another matter. While his hypothyroidism is regulated with medication, I've heard from a doctor that medication does not stabilize a patient's thyroid levels the way they are stable in a normal person who is not hypothyroid. Hypothyroidism also leads to low levels of the protein SHBG. Because testosterone must bind with SHBG before it is processed by the system, low levels of SHBG can cause abnormally high levels of testosterone, and, thus, abnormally high T/E ratios.

    In short,

    hypothyroidism->low levels of SHBG->excess testosterone->high T/E ratio

    If he was cheating, then they should be able to find artificial testosterone in his blood.

  4. #29
    Banned. Helmet Head's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by meb
    Your math is right. It is doping because WADA defined a non-complying ratio as indicative of doping. Floyd or his endocrinologist may have underdosed the levothyroxine resulting in insufficient epiteststerone in his body. If he isn't taking enough medications to maintain normal epitestoerone levels, he fails the doping test.
    If his epiteststerone levels are LOW, then his T/E ratio would be abnormally LOW, not HIGH, and he would not fail the doping test.

    How's my math?

  5. #30
    meb
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    Quote Originally Posted by Walter

    What's really pathetic is that the UCI went public b/c they "knew" (as stated in an interview in VeloNews) that the French lab would break confidentiality and leak the news!

    That's horrible. I'll admit that the lab's inability to respect confidentiality doesn't mean they can't competently run dope tests but if the UCI knows this lab has a direct link to the press, why do they use it?
    It's a convenient way to get information out that is difficult to get to the public due to the confidential nature of the information.

  6. #31
    meb
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    Quote Originally Posted by Helmet Head
    If his epiteststerone levels are LOW, then his T/E ratio would be abnormally LOW, not HIGH, and he would not fail the doping test.

    How's my math?
    Poor. The epitesterone is in the denominator.

  7. #32
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    thanks meb. you beat me to the punch, but I'll provide an example. Say your testosterone level is 200 and your epi level is 10. Your ratio is 20 to 1. If your testosterone level is 190 and your epi. level is 5 your ratio is 38 to 1. So it's possible for someone (say Floyd) to have relatively normal testosterone level, but still have an abnormally high ratio. QED
    "Things end. We’re all going to die. But until that happens, there’s really a lot you can do. Especially if you realize this is your last opportunity."
    ~Floyd Landis

  8. #33
    Banned. Helmet Head's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by meb
    Poor. The epitesterone is in the denominator.
    Doh!

    Okay, but, wouldn't a decrease in epitesterone production lead to a proportionally low testosterone level? Isn't that the basis for the T/E test?

  9. #34
    SLJ 6/8/65-5/2/07 Walter's Avatar
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    I asked this on another thread but I'll ask it here too.

    Reports are that "every" or at least "hundreds" of riders who have appealed the T-E test to the Court of Arbitration for Sports with endocrinological evidence have prevailed and had punishment overturned.

    Two thoughts:

    1. Floyd probably gets off.

    2. Of what use is this test if the appeal rate against is so successful?

    That question is valid IMO even if Floyd had been standing behind a horse pulled plough in Lancaster County, PA all summer.
    “Life is not one damned thing after another. Life is one damned thing over and over.”
    Edna St. Vincent Millay

  10. #35
    Banned. Helmet Head's Avatar
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    More importantly, what's the point of leaking the info about a likely-to-be-overturned test except to smear Floyd's name?

  11. #36
    Elitist Troglodyte DMF's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Helmet Head
    Okay, but, wouldn't a decrease in epitesterone production lead to a proportionally low testosterone level? Isn't that the basis for the T/E test?
    No. That is not the relationship between T and epiT. epiT is used as a control marker because (supposedly) it is unaffected by T-related steroids. Variations in the ratio occur naturally.

    IMO, UCI is using a kluge test simply because they haven't come up with a better one for flagging potential steroid use. Doesn't make it a good test.
    Stupidity got us into this mess - why can't it get us out?

    - Will Rogers

  12. #37
    Scottish Canuck in the US blue_nose's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Helmet Head
    More importantly, what's the point of leaking the info about a likely-to-be-overturned test except to smear Floyd's name?
    Enough already with the leaking, smearing, conspiracy crap. The simple fact remains that Floyd’s team was first to release a statement that Floyd failed the test. After Floyd pulled out of two cycling events rumors started swirling and the team released the info. Why on Earth would Phonak want to smear their own rider.

    Floyd failed a test where his T/E ratio was higher than the standard set forthby cycling authorities. Many may question the need and credibility of this test, but all cyclists are bound by the same rules. The bottom line is he exceeded the T/E ratio. He will have his say and get to defend himself.
    Last edited by blue_nose; 07-28-06 at 03:51 PM.

  13. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by blue_nose
    Enough already with the leaking, smearing, conspiracy crap. The simple fact remains that Floyd’s team was first to release a statement that Floyd failed the test. After Floyd pulled out of two cycling events rumors started swirling and the team released the info. Why on Earth would Phonak want to smear their own rider.

    Floyd failed a test where his T/E ratio was higher than the standard set forthby cycling authorities. Many may question the need and credibility of this test, but all cyclists are bound by the same rules. The bottom line is he exceeded the T/E ratio. He will have his say and get to defend himself.
    ....after his name has been dragged through the mud and his accomplishment, if it does turn out to be PED-free, still tarnished. In that event, which lab, which UCI official, and which court of public opinion does he appeal to in order to get his good name back??

    This is beginning to look like a case where the "cure" is sometimes worse than the disease. I'm sure the riders caught up in the Spanish investigation and barred from riding in the Tour, only to be exonerated since, would like their good names back, too.

  14. #39
    Senior Member Keith99's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by traildragon
    I've posted this response already in another thread, but here goes again:

    People, are we NOT LISTENING?! This all doesn't make sense. I'm sure the B test will match the A test, Floyd himself said he expects that. The epitestosterone isn't a performance enhancing or de-hancing drug, so the fact that his testosterone level was relatively low, but his testosterone/epitestosterone RATIO was high means, and trust me here, I'm a mathematician, that his epitestosterone level had to be way low. How is THAT doping?

    Also, it's been stated by many that his other tests obviously were clean, and that to take testosterone for one day would be foolish - steroids need to be taken in 6-12 week cycles, with some period between each cycle, to be effective and do what they're supposed to do. If he was doping (and I've already stated that his testosterone levels were relatively low, so this is a big IF) the testosterone levels would be high, and would have triggered a positive in other tests. Everyone needs to do some research on the situation before we all go out and hang this man.
    Source?

    Do you have any source saying his testosterone level is relatively low? Not an argument from silence just because testosterone level is not mentioned. I have not seen any and I have read the WSJ article one other poster cited. It said no such thing.

    So far all I've seen is (mainly sloppy) news reports saying his testosterone level was high and more professional ones saying that the 'positive' test is for the ratio.

    Unless you can cite a source at this point all we know is the ratio was outside the allowable, perhaps as high as 11:1. We have no idea if the testosterone level was 'normal', low or just one point below the max allowable. I do think the argument from silence is pretty strong for the testosterone level not being above the allowable max.

  15. #40
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    My source is John Eustice. He stated that in print (can't find it) and in an interview. Here's a link to the espn.com search results : http://search.espn.go.com/keyword/se....x=15&Find.y=6

    click on the video link on the right.

    He states it about a minute into the interview. Now...I'm not going to say he's 100% right, but he's a professional, and actually sounds like a voice of reason on espn, as opposed to everyone else.
    "Things end. We’re all going to die. But until that happens, there’s really a lot you can do. Especially if you realize this is your last opportunity."
    ~Floyd Landis

  16. #41
    Elitist Troglodyte DMF's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by blue_nose
    The simple fact remains that Floyd’s team was first to release a statement that Floyd failed the test.
    Uh-uh. That the team knew *at all* was a leak! According to UCI protocol the B sample must be tested before the team and rider are contacted. If Phonak knew, then others knew, and they apparently decided to get out in front of the tabloids.

    After Floyd pulled out of two cycling events
    Huh? What two events? He isn't scheduled to ride again until 2007, and due to the hip operation nothing in 2007 could be taken as a certainty. You wanna be more specific?
    Stupidity got us into this mess - why can't it get us out?

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  17. #42
    Elitist Troglodyte DMF's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Allen H
    the riders caught up in the Spanish investigation and barred from riding in the Tour, only to be exonerated since,
    And that would be whom?
    Stupidity got us into this mess - why can't it get us out?

    - Will Rogers

  18. #43
    Riding behind enemy lines iluvfreebeer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hitchy
    Angry......As I sit here & type this, it's my overwhelming emotion,
    Floyd....Oh I know we need to wait for 'B' samples & whatever other tests
    need to be done.....but, (assuming that they will confirm the 'A' sample),
    Floyd, how could you betray us all like this?. The stage 17 ride was
    arguably one of THE GREATEST in any TDF, (dare I say, all Pro cycling),
    history. The emotions that it stirred amongst this cycling fan were a
    mixture of amazement & sheer joy at the human spirit, the 'have a go
    attitude', a truly monumental day in cycling....it made me believe that
    anything was possible, if you wanted it badly enough... & now we find out
    that you were 'juiced'?....I'm angry Floyd....how dare you do this to the
    sport, to the fans, to all those who hailed you as 'the new
    beginning'.....how dare you. You are a fraud & a cheat....to use a good old
    fashioned Aussie curse, "I hope ya chooks turn into emu's & kick ya dunny
    down!"

    I sure hope you can ride better than you can write.
    Is English your first language?

    What a loser.


    -------------------------------------
    ------------------------------------

    Armstrong never got caught cheating.
    That probably makes him as good a cheater as a cyclist.

    -- Some guy at the Dallas Crits

  19. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by iluvfreebeer
    I sure hope you can ride better than you can write.
    Is English your first language?

    What a loser.


    -------------------------------------
    ooh scary american...yes english is my 1st language...please don't liberate me....i have no oil...so please don't massacre our innocent civilians, like you have in Iraq...if you have a problem with my argument, attack my argument, not me, but that would require you to have an brain, wouldn't it?...see you on springer buddy, Did you marry your sister?

  20. #45
    meb
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    Quote Originally Posted by DMF
    And that would be whom?

    Joseba Beloki, Isidro Nozal, Sergio Paulinho, Allan Davis and Alberto Contador.

  21. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hitchy
    Angry......As I sit here & type this, it's my overwhelming emotion,
    Floyd....Oh I know we need to wait for 'B' samples & whatever other tests
    need to be done.....but, (assuming that they will confirm the 'A' sample),
    Floyd, how could you betray us all like this?. The stage 17 ride was
    arguably one of THE GREATEST in any TDF, (dare I say, all Pro cycling),
    history. The emotions that it stirred amongst this cycling fan were a
    mixture of amazement & sheer joy at the human spirit, the 'have a go
    attitude', a truly monumental day in cycling....it made me believe that
    anything was possible, if you wanted it badly enough... & now we find out
    that you were 'juiced'?....I'm angry Floyd....how dare you do this to the
    sport, to the fans, to all those who hailed you as 'the new
    beginning'.....how dare you. You are a fraud & a cheat....to use a good old
    fashioned Aussie curse, "I hope ya chooks turn into emu's & kick ya dunny
    down!"
    I suggest we put emotions aside, take a deep breath and let the full process and science play out before one decides if Landis, or anyone else for that matter, deserves their disappointment. To do so prematurely cheapens oneself, the sport, the process and a potentially innocent human being and all the other stakeholders

  22. #47
    Senior Member Karlotta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DMF
    Uh-uh. That the team knew *at all* was a leak! According to UCI protocol the B sample must be tested before the team and rider are contacted. If Phonak knew, then others knew, and they apparently decided to get out in front of the tabloids.

    Huh? What two events? He isn't scheduled to ride again until 2007, and due to the hip operation nothing in 2007 could be taken as a certainty. You wanna be more specific?
    DMF, Pat McQuaid has already said that it was irregular procedure but that UCI told the team and the rider after the A-Sample (allegedly because they feared it would come out in the press anyway). UCI then told the press that it had told "a rider" and "a team" and "a national federation" and "a national anti-doping org" about the adverse result of the A-sample.

    So McQuaid, head of UCI, bears some responsibility for the way this exploded over several days in the media. They put out a little chum and the sharks responded. (including all of us baby internet sharks)

  23. #48
    Scottish Canuck in the US blue_nose's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Allen H
    ....after his name has been dragged through the mud and his accomplishment, if it does turn out to be PED-free, still tarnished. In that event, which lab, which UCI official, and which court of public opinion does he appeal to in order to get his good name back??

    This is beginning to look like a case where the "cure" is sometimes worse than the disease. I'm sure the riders caught up in the Spanish investigation and barred from riding in the Tour, only to be exonerated since, would like their good names back, too.
    He still failed the test. We all may not like it, but I don't see how letting that fact out is a deliberate attempt to smear. Unfortunately, Flandis is a professional cyclist , and participates is a sport that is so ripe with doping that when anyone performs at a high level they are suspected of cheating. This fact may never change.

  24. #49
    Senior Member erader's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by blue_nose
    He still failed the test. We all may not like it, but I don't see how letting that fact out is a deliberate attempt to smear. Unfortunately, Flandis is a professional cyclist , and participates is a sport that is so ripe with doping that when anyone performs at a high level they are suspected of cheating. This fact may never change.

    i agree with everything except ripe. did you mean rife ?

    ed rader

  25. #50
    Elitist Troglodyte DMF's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by meb
    Joseba Beloki, Isidro Nozal, Sergio Paulinho, Allan Davis and Alberto Contador.
    Ah! The 'Astana 5'. I hadn't read that when I posted.

    Still, color me skeptical. As far as I know, the Operation Puerto investigation is far from over, and the courts may have ruled that there is insufficient evidence for sanctions as of now. I hope they're clean, but I'm gonna reserve judgement for a while.
    Stupidity got us into this mess - why can't it get us out?

    - Will Rogers

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