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Old 05-26-07, 01:41 PM   #1
alanbikehouston
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Tour de France Cancelled for 2007

"The Tour de France has been cancelled for 2007". That headline has not been in the "New York Times" (yet), but THAT might be what it takes to save pro cycling.

The Tour de France is a bit like the "Kentucky Derby". It is the race that even non-fans follow and respect. If the organizers of the Tour de France have the courage to cancel the Tour for 2007, it would be the shock that would finally force the pro peloton to clean up its act.

It is difficult to see how any respectable organization can sponsor a team the is under a cloud of suspicion. Nor can fans root for a rider that possibly/probably is both a cheat and a criminal. So, it is time to cancel the Tour.

Of course, fans may just chose to cancel the Tour in their OWN way. What if they have a Tour, and nobody cares who wins?
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Old 05-26-07, 01:48 PM   #2
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I do not agree. Is that really fair to fans and to the few rider out their who are not cheating? And really, that would destroy pro cycling - fans would be upset by the race being cancelled and the rest would decide that if cycling has gotten that bad its not worth their time. Just my opinion, it would be a bad idea.
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Old 05-26-07, 01:49 PM   #3
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besides, if fans are really that upset they should stop watching it. It's like complaining about concession prices at the ballbark but buying a beer because you don't think you can go w/o it - if you support you can't complain
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Old 05-26-07, 03:58 PM   #4
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Nice little gimmick to get people to read the thread.
It will not be cancelled -- short of a World War.

Last edited by Trouduc; 05-26-07 at 04:06 PM.
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Old 05-26-07, 04:39 PM   #5
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Hey! That's a great idea.

Why don't we just destroy one of the mainstays of sport over the world. In fact, screw the Olympics, World Cups, World Series and Super Bowl too.
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Old 05-26-07, 05:35 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by Snuffleupagus
Hey! That's a great idea.

Why don't we just destroy one of the mainstays of sport over the world. In fact, screw the Olympics, World Cups, World Series and Super Bowl too.
AMEN!!!!
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Old 05-27-07, 11:42 AM   #7
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Right now, there is not a single team planning to participate in the 2007 Tour de France where the team directors, coaches, and doctors could pass a lie detector test as to one simple question: "Is every rider on your team riding 'clean'?"

Perhaps there are members of the Bike Forums who are interested in a Tour de France that is a contest to prove which team has the most clever ways of cheating. I am not one of them. The Tour should be canceled until everyone involved can truthfully say that it is a race to find the best rider, not a race to find the best (cheating/lying/law breaking) doctor.
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Old 05-27-07, 12:26 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alanbikehouston
Right now, there is not a single team planning to participate in the 2007 Tour de France where the team directors, coaches, and doctors could pass a lie detector test as to one simple question: "Is every rider on your team riding 'clean'?"

Perhaps there are members of the Bike Forums who are interested in a Tour de France that is a contest to prove which team has the most clever ways of cheating. I am not one of them. The Tour should be canceled until everyone involved can truthfully say that it is a race to find the best rider, not a race to find the best (cheating/lying/law breaking) doctor.
you act as if cheating in bike racing is a recent phenomenon.

now that you are aware that there's widespread cheating in the sport you want it to stop and you are willing to cancel perhaps the greatest sporting event on the planet to get your way.

i say let's try to put the genie back in the bottle and let 'em dope because the best riders really do win that way.

and if occasionally one of these guys drop dead prematurely that's show business ... and no different from any other sport .

ed rader
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Old 05-27-07, 02:37 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alanbikehouston
... "Is every rider on your team riding 'clean'?"...
Even if they were, there'd be no way to prove it.

I'm with ed. The show will go on.
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Old 05-29-07, 03:40 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by erader
i say let's try to put the genie back in the bottle and let 'em dope because the best riders really do win that way.

and if occasionally one of these guys drop dead prematurely that's show business ... and no different from any other sport .

ed , I'd have to say that I think that's a sad attitude to hold. Do you condone cheating? because that's what drug taking in sport IS: be it cycling or football or baseball or even, god forbid, taking beta blockers as a darts player to stop your hand shaking.

condoning cheating in sport means you probably condone cheating in all other walks of life, like with your taxes, at your kid's school, even on your wife. you can't separate one from the other, at least in most respectable moral systems, including your much-vaunted American Christianity.

That comment is directed at the world's most famous Mennonite too.
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Old 05-29-07, 07:51 AM   #11
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I refer you to the NHL. Cancelling the flag ship event of the sport would be the end of the sport for many of the small American fan base. we'd get distracted and move on.
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Old 05-29-07, 07:51 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by alanbikehouston
The Tour should be canceled until everyone involved can truthfully say that it is a race to find the best rider, not a race to find the best (cheating/lying/law breaking) doctor.
Brilliant plan.

While we're at it, let's also cancel the Superbowl, the World Series, the NBA post-season, the US Open, the Olympics, and a couple of World Cups too.

Do you really think that cycling is the only sport with a wide-spread doping problem?
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Old 05-29-07, 12:11 PM   #13
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They should just establish too classes for TdF racers, 'clean' and 'open' class. Let the open class riders dope anyway they want to....
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Old 05-29-07, 12:15 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by spearce
I refer you to the NHL. Cancelling the flag ship event of the sport would be the end of the sport for many of the small American fan base. we'd get distracted and move on.
I thought about that, too, but then thought about baseball and the cancelation of the 1994 World Series. A decade or so later and it has only led to higher attendance in ballparks.

Sometimes the event is bigger than the things that conspire to kill it off.

As the old saying goes, it's the Tour that makes the rider, not the other way around.
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Old 05-29-07, 02:16 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by urodacus
ed , I'd have to say that I think that's a sad attitude to hold. Do you condone cheating? because that's what drug taking in sport IS: be it cycling or football or baseball or even, god forbid, taking beta blockers as a darts player to stop your hand shaking.
if you don't cheat, you're out of a job. Period. Forget about winning, you can't even show up for work. Change the rules because they are unenforceable.
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Old 05-29-07, 06:16 PM   #16
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Canceling the tour de france because of all the scandals of doping is like canceling baseball steroids...and that hasnt happend
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Old 05-29-07, 10:05 PM   #17
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Cancelling the premier event in the sport worked wonders for Hockey. Wonder if that sport will ever recover.
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Old 05-29-07, 11:46 PM   #18
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Tour de France is not like athletics, where people want to see records being broken.

Here, all people want to see is drama, epic fights between champions in the mountains, leaders collapsing, outsiders being discovered. Even without the top50 of PRO cycling present, viewers will love to watch it. Good thing is the organisers are not bound to the PRO Team setup, basically they can invite/kick out whoever they like (under UCI regulations).
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Old 05-30-07, 04:24 AM   #19
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"Let the games begin"
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Old 05-30-07, 09:41 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by adamastor
Tour de France is not like athletics, where people want to see records being broken.

Here, all people want to see is drama, epic fights between champions in the mountains, leaders collapsing, outsiders being discovered. Even without the top50 of PRO cycling present, viewers will love to watch it. Good thing is the organisers are not bound to the PRO Team setup, basically they can invite/kick out whoever they like (under UCI regulations).
Depends why the top 50 are not there. Busted for drugs, sick or otherwise unable to compete fine. They are not the best anymore. But a strike like baseball, nope then it is the Tour de Scab and most would not care. The TDF is the big event because it attracts the best year in and year out. If it were for the drama then the Giro and Vuelta would have the larger following. Many of the Tours have frankly been boring with conservative riding.
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Old 05-30-07, 01:21 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by urodacus
... Do you condone cheating? because that's what drug taking in sport IS:
...
Only if it's against the rules. And yes, I know it is in cycling's case.

Why not allow it? If everyone starts doing it, it levels the playing field. If they're all doping, there's no advantage to doping, and no one can say "He only won because he was doping". They may say that he only posted such a good time by doping, however.

FTR, I'm not trying to push anyone's buttons, it's an honest question.

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Old 05-30-07, 02:13 PM   #22
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Why not allow it?

There are numerous reasons not to allow it:

Paternalistic:
1. It is in the best interest of the riders not to take drugs which impair their health.

Think of the children:
1. It sets a poor example for other people who may look up to the athletes.
2. It devalues the aspect of hard work in favor of "quick-fixes" (and yes I know you have to train also)

For the sport:
1. It means that pro-cycling is no longer approachable by common people. We all harbor dreams of being a pro-racer (Merckx, Armstrong, Indurian...); but now instead of convincing/fooling myself I could just succeed if I got out from behind a desk and rode my bike all the time, now I have to do that and learn about chemistry and stick myself with needles. This, more than anything else, will destroy the fan base.
2. It forces the choice of drugs onto everyone who competes.
3. It adds another variable that is not related to athletic ability to determining the end result. (Now I have to evaluate some secret drug regimen in addition to the bike and the athlete.)

Philosophically
1. If we are going to allow chemical modifications, why not add motors, call it motorcycle racing and be done with it?

These problems are going to arise, just wait til mechanical limbs start popping up on formerly crippled cyclists like is happening in sprinting.
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Old 05-30-07, 02:58 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by erader
you act as if cheating in bike racing is a recent phenomenon. . . and if occasionally one of these guys drop dead prematurely that's show business ... and no different from any other sport .

ed rader
Cheating in one form or another has been part of The Tour since its inception (think broken glass and tacks tossed onto the road by fans trying to foil a competitor, cocaine and amphetimine ingestion, cigarettes to "open the lungs", alcohol to "thin the blood".) Testing wasn't begun until 1968 or so (after Tom Simpson collapsed and died during a stage), much to the mighty protest of the peleton of the day

While I don't condone dishonesty in any form, I'm also not naive enough to think that cheating/doping is not going to continue. What's the answer? I have no idea. But just as the Prohibition was enacted to reduce the consumption of alcohol and it's related debauchery, the opposite was the result.

B
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Old 05-30-07, 08:58 PM   #24
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Only because I enjoy playing devil's advocate

Quote:
Originally Posted by akatsuki
There are numerous reasons not to allow it:

Paternalistic:
1. It is in the best interest of the riders not to take drugs which impair their health.
Riders are adults, they can choose what to do to their body.

Quote:
Originally Posted by akatsuki
Think of the children:
1. It sets a poor example for other people who may look up to the athletes.
2. It devalues the aspect of hard work in favor of "quick-fixes" (and yes I know you have to train also)
This happens now. At least the children wouldn't be lied to until their hero gets busted for doping.

Quote:
Originally Posted by akatsuki
For the sport:
1. It means that pro-cycling is no longer approachable by common people. We all harbor dreams of being a pro-racer (Merckx, Armstrong, Indurian...); but now instead of convincing/fooling myself I could just succeed if I got out from behind a desk and rode my bike all the time, now I have to do that and learn about chemistry and stick myself with needles. This, more than anything else, will destroy the fan base.
2. It forces the choice of drugs onto everyone who competes.
3. It adds another variable that is not related to athletic ability to determining the end result. (Now I have to evaluate some secret drug regimen in addition to the bike and the athlete.)
1. Is the current doping controversy less destructive to the fan base?
2. It could be argued that they already are.
3. I can't argue that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by akatsuki
Philosophically
1. If we are going to allow chemical modifications, why not add motors, call it motorcycle racing and be done with it?
Because then it's not cycling. Doping cyclists are still cyclists.

Quote:
Originally Posted by akatsuki
These problems are going to arise, just wait til mechanical limbs start popping up on formerly crippled cyclists like is happening in sprinting.
Sprinters with mechanical limbs are still considerably slower than world class sprinters. Plus, bionics are really easy to test for.

BTW, great response. Very well thought out. More than I expected.
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Old 05-31-07, 06:30 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by goldenear
if you don't cheat, you're out of a job. Period. Forget about winning, you can't even show up for work. Change the rules because they are unenforceable.

Well, i think that's a losers' attitude. i have never cheated in school or in work, and here i am at a great job, which i got by relying on my brains and natural talents. OK, occasionally i don't tell the taxman about everything i earn, but hey, i'm not perfect. Why not the same in sport, at all levels? because some people are not happy with the fact that they ARE NOT as good as someone else, and they can't handle that feeling of loss, so they cheat to get better. it's only a F'n sport, for crying out loud.

and if nobody dopes, it is a level playing field too, right? it is the slow creep of attitudes like yours that has got us into this mess, and has made the job of pro cycling that much harder to master: think of all the extra **** to go through.

and i know that there have been cheats in the TdF since day one, but that's the point: we still think they're cheats, and we don't like it, and we have less respect for them. like i have less respect for Zabel, Basso, Flandis, and I suspect it of Lance too... pretty much anyone who has been in contact with that quack ferrari. I still look up to Pantani tho, cause the dude was truly an animal climber, but with lots less respect than he once got...
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