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  1. #1
    Senior Member erader's Avatar
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    gotta hand it to kloden.........

    he worked his ass off for vino today and even waited for him and that's more that vino would have done if the roles were reversed .

    ed rader

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    Kloden looked a lot stronger to me. He lost a lot of time near the finish dropping back for Vino.

    I think Kloden is Astana's best shot at the overall, and casting him in the support role is reducing the team's chances to win it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by erader
    he worked his ass off for vino today and even waited for him and that's more that vino would have done if the roles were reversed .

    ed rader
    Umm...BS. When Vino was on T-Mob he helped out all of his team mates, even when not told to. He was Zabel's lead-out man for years and totally dedicated to the team. Even when he was on his way to the podium in 2003 he was acting as domestique and fetching bottles. If the roles were reversed, Vino would have helped out Klodi in a heartbeat just like Klodi did today.

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    Banned. Ryanf's Avatar
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    I love Kloden. Also very happy Mayo is finally on form.

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    I agree with fixiechick on this issue:
    Quote Originally Posted by fixiechick
    Umm...BS. When Vino was on T-Mob he helped out all of his team mates, even when not told to. He was Zabel's lead-out man for years and totally dedicated to the team. Even when he was on his way to the podium in 2003 he was acting as domestique and fetching bottles. If the roles were reversed, Vino would have helped out Klodi in a heartbeat just like Klodi did today.
    Let me add that the tour is still early so, the people who have written Vino completely off may be making a foolish mistake.

  6. #6
    Dances With Cars TRaffic Jammer's Avatar
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    Kloden did as he was supposed to, which in turn will work out for him in the future. His stock went up. I hope V starts to feel better.

  7. #7
    Senior Member erader's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TRaffic Jammer
    Kloden did as he was supposed to, which in turn will work out for him in the future. His stock went up. I hope V starts to feel better.

    how so? kloden is the stronger of the two...waiting for vino means neither have a shot this year !

    we'll see if vino is called upon to support kloden in the pyrenees !

    ed rader

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    I think when Vino believes he does not have a chance to win he will give the lead to Kloden. I think Vino is pretty trust worthy, I think all of his team mates would agree with that as well. I have never heard someone say a cross statement about him..

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zauber
    Kloden looked a lot stronger to me. He lost a lot of time near the finish dropping back for Vino.

    I think Kloden is Astana's best shot at the overall, and casting him in the support role is reducing the team's chances to win it.
    Those are my thoughts too. I just don't know what the guy is thinking kissing Vino's ass when he could certainly get on the podium again himself.

    Call him noble if you want, but i think kloden just doesn't have the balls to grab the race by the scruff of the neck or lead a team. Even if he couldn't see the big picture himself, the management should have had him bridge up and ride with Kashekin. Vino's too questionable to waste an asset like Kloden on right now, thats that Salvodeli and the rest of the squad are for

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    Quote Originally Posted by roadgator
    Vino's too questionable to waste an asset like Kloden on right now, thats that Salvodeli and the rest of the squad are for
    But don't you think it's too early in the tour for Astana to fold its hand with Vino?

  11. #11
    raodmaster shaman
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    No, but i dont think they should handicap kloden in the mean time either.

    If Vino cant get back on form, Kloden could still win it all for the team. but not if he gives up gobs of time towing Vino around.

    And remember that Vino is a Kazack rider on a Kazack team. Patriotism might make them much slower to hand the reigns over to a German (or even let him ride for himself) than strategy itself would. At which point it could be too late for Astana to make anything of the tour.

    there are 7 men left who can still ride for Vino. Besides, Kashekin needs to repay the favor for all Vino did in the Duaphine. If anyone owes Vino a tow, its him.
    Last edited by roadgator; 07-15-07 at 04:04 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by roadgator
    And remember that Vino is a Kazack rider on a Kazack team.
    Unofficially, yeah. Technically Swiss tho

    I don't think nationalism is an issue. I think they're just trying to stick with the plan as much as possible. The team was built around Vino, who was long overdue for this kind of faithful support (he definitely didn't get it on T-Mobile). Why let it go down the drain without a fight? I have a ton of respect for Klodi. I don't think he's kissing anyone's ass. He knew what he was signing up for when he joined the team.

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    Senior Member Hornbiker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fixiechick
    I have a ton of respect for Klodi. I don't think he's kissing anyone's ass. He knew what he was signing up for when he joined the team.
    All respect to Kloeden---I'm sure the last thing he wanted to do was lose time towing Vino, but he did it. As for knowing what he was signing up for though...I don't know about that. Kloeden and Vino have both stated more than once that whoever was stronger in the mountains would be the leader, and the other would ride for him. Vino was the first bet, but with him thoroughly dropped and having Kloeden wait for him today (and therefore give up time when Kloeden looked strong) seems to me to go against that agreement. I do think it's too early to write off Vino, but I'm wondering if his problems today were due to the crash injuries or to his climbing ability in general. After watching him for some years now, he's never impressed me in the mountains. He hangs tough for awhile, but of the favorites he seldom was strong and in the mix for the full climb.

    I think better tactics would have been to let Kloeden go ahead and Vino could have come in on his own. It wasn't that far to the finish, so he should have been fine. Having Kloeden wait for him harmed Astana's chances for both of them instead of just Vino. But time will tell.

    From what I've seen, Kloeden has always been a better climber and time trialist. He is only lacking (supposedly) in the killer instinct, but he's always been working for someone else---at least until last year, when he was thrust into the leader role less than 24 hours ahead of the Tour. He probably wasn't prepared for that mentally or physically. I think the guy just hasn't had a chance to show what he's made of yet. If Vino can't pull it off this year, I hope he calls it soon enough to give Kloeden a shot at it, instead of blowing his chances too.

  14. #14
    Cheers! 2wheeled's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by roadgator
    No, but i dont think they should handicap kloden in the mean time either.

    If Vino cant get back on form, Kloden could still win it all for the team. but not if he gives up gobs of time towing Vino around.

    And remember that Vino is a Kazack rider on a Kazack team. Patriotism might make them much slower to hand the reigns over to a German (or even let him ride for himself) than strategy itself would. At which point it could be too late for Astana to make anything of the tour.

    there are 7 men left who can still ride for Vino. Besides, Kashekin needs to repay the favor for all Vino did in the Duaphine. If anyone owes Vino a tow, its him.
    Excellent points.

    I think Vino is a fabulous rider and I believe he will come back to gives us fireworks, but to sacrifice to highest GC spot of all the contenders is simply not smart.

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    Senior Member SaintAndrew's Avatar
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    i totally agree. IMO kloden is THE most able GCer in the the world today, but for some reason resists the leader role like the clap. i find it completely idiotic that he signed on as (let's face it) a super-domestique at astana, and even more dumb that any other team didn't throw enough money at him to make him have to become a leader. and poop an a', he's on form.

  16. #16
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    +1 with all of you guys.

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    Quote Originally Posted by fixiechick
    Unofficially, yeah. Technically Swiss tho

    I don't think nationalism is an issue. I think they're just trying to stick with the plan as much as possible. The team was built around Vino, who was long overdue for this kind of faithful support (he definitely didn't get it on T-Mobile). Why let it go down the drain without a fight? I have a ton of respect for Klodi. I don't think he's kissing anyone's ass. He knew what he was signing up for when he joined the team.
    Really now. If nationalism isn't an issue, why would they send back the guy who's higher in the GC as opposed to Kashechkin? Kloden and Kashechkin were up ahead in the same group. But they sent the higher GC guy back to pull for Vino. Dumb tactics. Nationalism is about the only explanation that makes sense. Send the German back to pull for the Kazack rider and leave the other Kazack up front. If they left Kloden up there, then he problably finishes well enough to be in 3rd. At worst, he's still in the mix with Mayo and Valverde.

    There are a lot of Vino fan boys out there that think he's just going to go on the attack and fix everything. Remember, he's the #1 man on his team now. The other teams aren't going to let him just break away like he's done before. He ain't gonna catch anyone by surprise. Any move he makes is going to be marked by all of the other GC contenders. He's a good climber, but not good enough to ride the big climbers off of his wheel to make up minutes of time in the mountains.

    Now I don't think they should just like Vino flounder, but to sacrifice Kloden over Kashechkin at this point is dumb. Kloden is clearly riding better than anyone on that team at this point. Astana's team director is either dumb or he's pushing the Kazack riders on a Kazack team. What other explanation is there?
    Everyone has a right to an opinion. However, this does not mean that one's opinion is right.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrionKhan
    Really now. If nationalism isn't an issue, why would they send back the guy who's higher in the GC as opposed to Kashechkin? Kloden and Kashechkin were up ahead in the same group. But they sent the higher GC guy back to pull for Vino. Dumb tactics. Nationalism is about the only explanation that makes sense. Send the German back to pull for the Kazack rider and leave the other Kazack up front. If they left Kloden up there, then he problably finishes well enough to be in 3rd. At worst, he's still in the mix with Mayo and Valverde.

    There are a lot of Vino fan boys out there that think he's just going to go on the attack and fix everything. Remember, he's the #1 man on his team now. The other teams aren't going to let him just break away like he's done before. He ain't gonna catch anyone by surprise. Any move he makes is going to be marked by all of the other GC contenders. He's a good climber, but not good enough to ride the big climbers off of his wheel to make up minutes of time in the mountains.

    Now I don't think they should just like Vino flounder, but to sacrifice Kloden over Kashechkin at this point is dumb. Kloden is clearly riding better than anyone on that team at this point. Astana's team director is either dumb or he's pushing the Kazack riders on a Kazack team. What other explanation is there?
    Let's just fantasize here:
    explanation 1: Kloden's injury is worse than expected. Astana doesn't know if he'll make it to the end of TDF. So let's decide to sacrifice Kloden to help Vino get on safely to the rest day.

    explanation 2: Astana --> kazach team --> lots of money --> needs/wants a kazach winner. Period.
    Health, Friendship and Love

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    Quote Originally Posted by adamastor
    Let's just fantasize here:
    explanation 1: Kloden's injury is worse than expected. Astana doesn't know if he'll make it to the end of TDF. So let's decide to sacrifice Kloden to help Vino get on safely to the rest day.

    explanation 2: Astana --> kazach team --> lots of money --> needs/wants a kazach winner. Period.
    I almost can't blame Astana. They have to think about the big picture. Heck, they're probably better off with 2 Kazach's in the top 15, as opposed to having a German in the top 3 and only one Kazach in the to 15.
    Everyone has a right to an opinion. However, this does not mean that one's opinion is right.

  20. #20
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    in 2004 when Jan couldn't pull through he told kolden to make this tour his and he still couldn't deliver.

  21. #21
    Banned. Helmet Head's Avatar
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    Here's what I saw:

    Vino is dropped.
    Vino gets on the radio.
    Kloden comes back.

    Kloden probably lost a minute on stage 9 because he was helping Vino. Maybe more.

  22. #22
    Senior Member SaintAndrew's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by botto
    yeah, 2nd to Armstrong, in a tour where Armstrong won 5 stages... he really disappointed there.
    not to mention it took forever for him to get the go-ahead. he could have made it a much tighter race for the yellow jersey if he'd been able to race for himself sooner.

  23. #23
    Senior Member erader's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Helmet Head
    Here's what I saw:

    Vino is dropped.
    Vino gets on the radio.
    Kloden comes back.

    Kloden probably lost a minute on stage 9 because he was helping Vino. Maybe more.
    you'll notice contador didn't lose any time because of levi !

    ed rader

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrionKhan
    Really now. If nationalism isn't an issue, why would they send back the guy who's higher in the GC as opposed to Kashechkin? Kloden and Kashechkin were up ahead in the same group. But they sent the higher GC guy back to pull for Vino. Dumb tactics. Nationalism is about the only explanation that makes sense. Send the German back to pull for the Kazack rider and leave the other Kazack up front.
    I think you're reading waaaaaay too much into this right now!

    If you were Vino during that stage, would you rather have Kloden (a stronger rider) or Kaschechkin helping drag you back up towards the leaders? Me personally, I would ask for Kloden.

  25. #25
    Senior Member robow's Avatar
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    "you'll notice contador didn't lose any time because of levi !"

    Ole Levi has them right where he wants them, running exactly according to plan

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