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Step Down 07-18-07 08:51 AM

Sinkewitz positive-why Testosterone?
 
T-Mobile's Sinkewitz has tested positive for testosterone. Why since Floyd is testosterone suddenly showing up in the Peleton and what would be the real benifit of taking it, recovery? Perhaps some of the more knowledgeable folks around here can help me understand this. What happened to the tried and true EPO/NESP?

steppy

Grasschopper 07-18-07 09:01 AM

Err it isn't suddenly showing up since Floyd...they have been using it for a long time. The trick is to remove the patch after a set amount of time and or to correctly also dope epitestosterone so that the ratio test doesn't show an imbalance.

biffstephens 07-18-07 09:19 AM

My question is why was T-Mobile not aware of this? It seems there new doping program would have caught this before others did....

"The reported value was 24:1, with the allowed limit being 4:1. A normal value is considered to be 1:1."

WTF?

"We will have to wait for the B sample, though I believe it will have the same outcome."

Guilty until proven guilty!!

chzman 07-18-07 09:20 AM

or the labs switched to a more flawed test

biffstephens 07-18-07 09:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chzman (Post 4877469)
or the labs switched to a more flawed test

Is that possible? LOL..LOL....LOLOLOL OMG ok ok my side is hurting...

chzman 07-18-07 09:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by biffstephens (Post 4877501)
Is that possible? LOL..LOL....LOLOLOL OMG ok ok my side is hurting...

did you really LOL?

in all seriousness, it is possible. with the constant move to more automated testing, newer testing technology, the dersire for short turn-around time... yes, they could be using a more flawed test, unlikely, but it could happen.

carpediemracing 07-18-07 09:47 AM

T-Mobile doesn't test for testosterone - just blood type tests.

A sample and B sample are taken at the same time - you may even pee across the cups. If one is positive, the other is almost always positive as well.

The kicker will be when they test for exogenous testosterone, i.e. artificial testosterone. If that comes up then it's hard to prove you didn't dope.

Sinkewitz tested positive at an out of competition test - something new for this year. Kessler (Astana) tested positive like this too (for testo as well).

testosterone is good for recovery so it makes sense to take it during a training camp or right before a big race (so you're fresh). it also makes sense to take it during a stage race so there's less of a chance of having a bad day since you recover a lot better.

interesting read on drugs and effects on a cyclist:
http://outside.away.com/outside/body...ug_test_1.html

The new out of competition tests is also the reason why the UCI was mumbling about the "men in black" - i.e. racers training without their team kit. Astana was one team mentioned, Rabobank another. Apparently they think that training without a kit will help them escape notice when the testers show up at their house/hotel/etc. Or they go really far away so it's expensive to track them down.

btw skipping an out of competition test (i.e. escaping it and being spotted escaping) is the same as testing positive. however, the two astanas (vino and the k-guy) both "missed" a test during the Vuelta but were excused somehow. they were winning and went on to win the Vuelta.

cdr

biffstephens 07-18-07 09:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chzman (Post 4877582)
did you really LOL?

in all seriousness, it is possible. with the constant move to more automated testing, newer testing technology, the dersire for short turn-around time... yes, they could be using a more flawed test, unlikely, but it could happen.

Agreed..

The test was from June 8th during a training camp....so I don't think speed was in mind....but it is intresting that the news came out ofter the crash and he was out of the Tour...makes me think they were holding the info for some reason....not sure why.. I don't think it would be a less accurate test after the Floyd deal....imho I think it would be more accurate..I think they are very worried that the Floyd test was a screw up...not just the test but all the handeling of it. If someone called me up to collect a million dollars from me and the evidance had a wrong SS# on it and some white out on it....lol I would be pissed....I think they are trying to fix that by being 100% positive about there test...which in the scope of things is good....

SaintAndrew 07-18-07 09:52 AM

i saw a sample doping schedule last year and i have to admit, even though i know quite a bit about PED's, esp. steroids, i had no idea what these substances were. i really have no idea what role testplays in an elite cyclist's doping program because you'd certainly think that not only would it have more subtle benefits, but that it would be fairly easy to control the flow.

i know that when exo testosterone is used via gel or patch (absorbed through the skin), there is no one who really knows the rate of actual absorbtion through the bloodstream, which may explain why so many guys are messing it up.

DocRay 07-18-07 10:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by carpediemracing (Post 4877697)
T-Mobile doesn't test for testosterone - just blood type tests.

A sample and B sample are taken at the same time - you may even pee across the cups. If one is positive, the other is almost always positive as well.

The kicker will be when they test for exogenous testosterone, i.e. artificial testosterone. If that comes up then it's hard to prove you didn't dope.

No it isn't, just hire mouthpieces to discredit the lab and get your coach to intimidate and blackmail witnesses. Make up stories about drinking. Then start a website, publish a one-sided book, and if that doesn't work, wave a flag in their face and tell them to shut the f**k up.

GGDub 07-18-07 10:35 AM

Well, at least these guys aren't both on steriods and running dog fighting rings at the same time.

I hope this guy's B sample comes back negative, but I'm not putting any money on it.

DocRay 07-18-07 10:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SaintAndrew (Post 4877738)
i saw a sample doping schedule last year and i have to admit, even though i know quite a bit about PED's, esp. steroids, i had no idea what these substances were. i really have no idea what role testplays in an elite cyclist's doping program because you'd certainly think that not only would it have more subtle benefits, but that it would be fairly easy to control the flow.

i know that when exo testosterone is used via gel or patch (absorbed through the skin), there is no one who really knows the rate of actual absorbtion through the bloodstream, which may explain why so many guys are messing it up.


It builds muscle. It can also get stored in fat and quickly released much later (flash-back effect), and it can persist in a blood bag that is re-transfused at a later time. While using testosterone has no immediate effects in a race, the detection was likely due to contamination from blood transfusion from an earlier time when the rider was on heavy testosterone.

You won't read that in Floyd's book.

SaintAndrew 07-18-07 10:41 AM

that was my theory last year for floyd (except obviously it's used not for gaining muscle but for not losing it), and i would venture to say that sinkowitz's positive came just by messing up his test schedule in training.

the particular question i was addressing though, is why so many riders are actually testing positive for test, when it's definitely not the only thing they're using, and i think the reason is that it's so poorly understood how much epidermal testosterone actually makes it to the bloodstream. it would be very hard to mess up a shot.

ryanhulce 07-18-07 11:03 AM

According to Floyd's book I know I know, but anyways his wasn't because of high testosterone levels but low epitestosterone levels which messed his ratio up.

Anyways who can trust a lab when they do 3 tests and get 3 totally different results?

SaintAndrew 07-18-07 11:12 AM

don't forget his positive test for exogenous testosterone, the fact that a screwed up test to epitest ratio is evidence of doping (which is why they use it- duh!), or the fact that his lawyer is the same one responsible for hamilton's "disappearing twin" defense.

DocRay 07-18-07 01:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ryanhulce (Post 4878291)
According to Floyd's book I know I know, but anyways his wasn't because of high testosterone levels but low epitestosterone levels which messed his ratio up.

Anyways who can trust a lab when they do 3 tests and get 3 totally different results?

zzzt. sorry.
1. The mass isotope test proves it was exogenous testy, not just the ratio.
2. B sample was retested under observers: exact same result.
3. the three test gave equal results within typical variability.

Floyd LIES. This is a fact.

There is a lot of BS with hormones still in the peloton, everyone seems to have asthma and needs corticosteroids, with just by coincidence can mask some types of steroid use.

ggg300 07-18-07 01:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Step Down (Post 4877304)
T-Mobile's Sinkewitz has tested positive for testosterone. Why since Floyd is testosterone suddenly showing up in the Peleton and what would be the real benifit of taking it, recovery? Perhaps some of the more knowledgeable folks around here can help me understand this. What happened to the tried and true EPO/NESP?

steppy

learn the dark art

same time 07-18-07 03:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ggg300 (Post 4879310)

Ugh. Looking for the smiley that's a little bit sick... but can't find it, so here's the "ignorance is bliss" smiley :D

SpeedNut 07-18-07 03:39 PM

Which lab did the test?

VT Biker 07-18-07 04:09 PM

[QUOTE=DocRay;4879100]zzzt. sorry.
1. The mass isotope test proves it was exogenous testy, not just the ratio.
2. B sample was retested under observers: exact same result.
3. the three test gave equal results within typical variability.

Floyd LIES. This is a fact.

There is a lot of BS with hormones still in the peloton, everyone seems to have asthma and needs corticosteroids, with just by coincidence can mask some types of steroid use.[QUOTE]

Well I know here in Denver all Pulmonary Specialists recommend asthmatics start endurance sports, espeically during the Ozone warning days. That TB Patient - saw him riding up Mt. Evans at the doctor's orders.

VT Biker 07-18-07 04:11 PM

My understanding for the ratios being off-whack is also due to the overuse of masking agents, which artificially reduces epi-testosterone. Am I wrong here?

skinnyone 07-18-07 06:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ggg300 (Post 4879310)


Holy ****.. I cant believe these guys are out in a public forum doing this!.. It also seems that the the people who reply seem to have it down to a science by experimenting with their own bodies.. Thats ****ing messed up..

Dubbayoo 07-18-07 08:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VT Biker (Post 4880486)
My understanding for the ratios being off-whack is also due to the overuse of masking agents, which artificially reduces epi-testosterone. Am I wrong here?

You want to INCREASE epitestosterone, not decrease it. As you increase testosterone usage you have to also increase epitestosterone so the T:E ratio stays below 4:1. I'm surprised masking agents are still used as ALL of them are easily detectable, not naturally occurring therefore impossible to explain away if found.

Cyclists don't use test for building or maintaining muscle tissue. it's used for recovery, along with GH. Ever wonder why teenagers can run around all day, sleep like babies then do it again the next day with sloppy diets? High natural test and GH output is the reason.

Blaireau 07-18-07 08:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DocRay (Post 4879100)
zzzt. sorry.
1. The mass isotope test proves it was exogenous testy, not just the ratio.
2. B sample was retested under observers: exact same result.
3. the three test gave equal results within typical variability.

Floyd LIES. This is a fact.

There is a lot of BS with hormones still in the peloton, everyone seems to have asthma and needs corticosteroids, with just by coincidence can mask some types of steroid use.


+ 1

ednwireland 07-19-07 03:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ggg300 (Post 4879310)

omg i used to do a lot of gym work and knew rugby players on roids (injecting in the changing rooms) and could buy aything in the gym
but that site is just unbeleivable i guess i always assumed doping was pretty prevalent but thats just amazing guess the authorities are going to have a tough job clearing out doping


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