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-   -   Levi - One man's take on him so far (http://www.bikeforums.net/professional-cycling-fans/322859-levi-one-mans-take-him-so-far.html)

bvfrompc 07-19-07 01:32 PM

Levi - One man's take on him so far
 
"Levi doesn't attack"

So far we have had one uphill finish of note that wasn't particulary steep and nobody gained a ton of time on their rivals except a lone breakaway artist who can't time trial, why would one attack?

Their have also been two mountain stages with a decent amount of time for any attackers to get caught back on the descent, why would one attack?

I think on two of the three mountain stages there have been teammates of Levi ahead in breakaways, should he pull everybody up to his teammates (see T-Mobile for answers to that question, they seem to have that in their playbook), why would one attack?

Tell me which stage Lance would have attacked and gained time on his rivals given this year's route?

This weekend will be the answer to all of the attack attack attack crowd.

Personally I think it will be Valverde doing it, but give Levi a break, so far all he has done is ride smartly and within himself.

Can't wait until Sunday when I belive the tour will be decided.

aham23 07-19-07 02:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bvfrompc (Post 4887203)
"Levi doesn't attack"

So far we have had one uphill finish of note that wasn't particulary steep and nobody gained a ton of time on their rivals except a lone breakaway artist who can't time trial, why would one attack?

Their have also been two mountain stages with a decent amount of time for any attackers to get caught back on the descent, why would one attack?

I think on two of the three mountain stages there have been teammates of Levi ahead in breakaways, should he pull everybody up to his teammates (see T-Mobile for answers to that question, they seem to have that in their playbook), why would one attack?

Tell me which stage Lance would have attacked and gained time on his rivals given this year's route?

This weekend will be the answer to all of the attack attack attack crowd.

Personally I think it will be Valverde doing it, but give Levi a break, so far all he has done is ride smartly and within himself.

Can't wait until Sunday when I belive the tour will be decided.

this is your opinion. maybe he was hurting too much to ride any other way. the TT on saturday will answer where Levi is at and how Levi will do. if he stinks it up in the TT nothing else will matter. later.

SunSwingsLow 07-19-07 05:54 PM

As was mentioned in another thread we are all spoiled from LA putting attacks on people and making them stick to the finish. Putting 10,20 60 or 120 into other riders on different stages.

Im adopting a wait and see approach...13,14 and 15 we will see.

SaintAndrew 07-19-07 05:59 PM

the onyl problem with the TS' viewpoint is that levi has been losing time in the mountains to people who generally time trial either at his level or better. sure chasing down every attack from any random climber os one thing, but losing time to the other GC men is another.

El Diablo Rojo 07-19-07 06:04 PM

Contador will finish higher on GC than Levi. If Disco had thought Levi could win the Tour they would have never signed Basso and all his baggage.

roadgator 07-19-07 06:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by El Diablo Rojo (Post 4889343)
Contador will finish higher on GC than Levi. If Disco had thought Levi could win the Tour they would have never signed Basso and all his baggage.

Very ture.

Bruneel (sp?) is clearly not putting all his eggs in the Levi basket the way Popovich and Contador were let go on the climbs. "Domestiques" attacking in front of the "leader" never happened (until GC was buttoned up) under his direction with LA.

Im sure Discover is still hoping for a good result from Levi, but snagging stage wins with some of the other guys is probably of equal importance now with sponsorship in jeopardy.

reef58 07-19-07 06:37 PM

Incorrect, or so I think

Richard

Quote:

Originally Posted by El Diablo Rojo (Post 4889343)
Contador will finish higher on GC than Levi. If Disco had thought Levi could win the Tour they would have never signed Basso and all his baggage.


badfishgood 07-19-07 07:41 PM

I think Levi is in great position. He's up a few minutes on Vinokourov and less than two minutes behind Valverde and Mayo.

Wait until the Pyrennes...

Lance wasn't always in yellow and attacking... Why would Levi?


P.S. He's not my favorite to win, but I could see him doing it.

ed073 07-19-07 09:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bvfrompc (Post 4887203)
"Levi doesn't attack"


Neither does Cadel.

You don't win the Tour de France following wheels, lads.

SaintAndrew 07-19-07 09:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by badfishgood (Post 4889990)
I think Levi is in great position. He's up a few minutes on Vinokourov and less than two minutes behind Valverde and Mayo.

Wait until the Pyrennes...

Lance wasn't always in yellow and attacking... Why would Levi?

.

because lance generally beat everyone in the mountains and in the ITT's, and could count on gaining time in the TTT's as well. plus, it's not like pharmstrong would give away the jersey to a strong GC contender. how many times did he pass it to ullrich?? or beloki?? forget about the actual jersey, my point is that you don't want higher caliber (or even just close) GC riders than you ahead in time at any point of the race.

skinny 07-19-07 09:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ed073 (Post 4890512)
Neither does Cadel.

You don't win the Tour de France following wheels, lads.

Tell that to Joop Zoetemelk. Excellent time trialer, won 2 out of 4 ITTs in the 1980 TDF, never got on the podium on a mountain stage, and won because of attrition(Hinault injured) and excellent time trialing. It happens.

GGDub 07-19-07 10:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SaintAndrew (Post 4890626)
because lance generally beat everyone in the mountains and in the ITT's, and could count on gaining time in the TTT's as well. plus, it's not like pharmstrong would give away the jersey to a strong GC contender. how many times did he pass it to ullrich?? or beloki?? forget about the actual jersey, my point is that you don't want higher caliber (or even just close) GC riders than you ahead in time at any point of the race.

ahhh, this is the point I so inarticulately was trying to make in the other thread! Thank you, for putting it down in a way that is much more clear than I ever could. I don't believe Levi has to attack the entire field to win or podium but he sure would have to do it against his main rivals, Kloden, Evans, Valverde, Mayo and gasp, Rasmussen. Chances are better than good that Levi puts good time into Mayo and Rasmussen. But if he's saving up do just that he could snooker himself if he has a crappy day or a mechanical. The others could easily put time into him on the TT's, while all of them could put time into him in the Pyrenees.

Bottom line is what SA said, you never give time to your main rivals, unless what they are doing is seriously foolish (i.e. going on a long solo breakaway) and none of his rivals has done something stupid.

If you want an example of how holding back could be a bad strategy, just think of how things could really have gone wrong for LA had he not been lucky (emphasis on lucky) to dodge a sprawling Beloki or taco a wheel when he CXed while they were trying to chase down an attacking Vino on a downhill.

erader 07-19-07 10:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by El Diablo Rojo (Post 4889343)
Contador will finish higher on GC than Levi. If Disco had thought Levi could win the Tour they would have never signed Basso and all his baggage.

at least disco made sure levi wouldn't be racing against basso.

and basso would have been the heavy favorite to win this race....sorta like vinokourev was a couple of days ago :eek:.

ed rader

Angus 07-19-07 11:23 PM

Did anyone see George Hincapie's interview after the stage today? He was asked about Discovery's chances to win the GC and all he talked about was Contador. The interviewer had to mention Levi, and then George sorta mumbled something politcally correct about Levi riding well, too. I thought that spoke volumes about the thinking on the Disco team.

vic32amg 07-19-07 11:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ed073 (Post 4890512)
Neither does Cadel.

You don't win the Tour de France following wheels, lads.

Yeah Cadel didn't attack a couple days ago only to have contrador counter and blow up the race.. but yeah cadel doesn't attack..:rolleyes:

dhut 07-21-07 09:28 PM

Based on todays results, and Hincappies prior comments, I think Levi is done. The team will back Contadore. The only way Levi had a chance of remaining the leader of Disco was to have a good time trial today. Contadore beat him in the time trial, and is a better climber. Bruyneel would be crazy to continue supporting Levi as the team leader. If Disco has any chance at winning the tour, they need to begin concentrating on supporting Contadore and cut the dead weight.

smoke 07-21-07 09:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dhut (Post 4902693)
Based on todays results, and Hincappies prior comments, I think Levi is done. The team will back Contadore. The only way Levi had a chance of remaining the leader of Disco was to have a good time trial today. Contadore beat him in the time trial, and is a better climber. Bruyneel would be crazy to continue supporting Levi as the team leader. If Disco has any chance at winning the tour, they need to begin concentrating on supporting Contadore and cut the dead weight.

i've gotta agree with some of this. i think disco has to back contador. levi only beat the chicken in today's TT by 16 seconds. i'm just not a levi believer. i never see any 'fight' in him. and now we're entering a phase that is contador's strength. the only thing against contador is that he's young and learning. may be too much to put on him. but i'll tell ya - i've never been so unimpressed with someone in fifth place as i am with levi. i don't dislike him, i just don't see a 'spark' there

erader 07-21-07 10:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Angus (Post 4891267)
Did anyone see George Hincapie's interview after the stage today? He was asked about Discovery's chances to win the GC and all he talked about was Contador. The interviewer had to mention Levi, and then George sorta mumbled something politcally correct about Levi riding well, too. I thought that spoke volumes about the thinking on the Disco team.

i saw the interview and while george mentioned contador first he also mentioned levi. your recollection is either incorrect or else we saw different interviews :eek:.

ed rader

SpeedNut 07-21-07 11:22 PM

When have you ever seen Levi pissed off enough to fight/attack in the tour?

Exactly. No win for LL until he displays a real desire to do so.

maalea 07-21-07 11:30 PM

Everyone wants to see attacks. They are turning points. They are exciting. Sometimes they succede but if you are not heads above your rivals you need to be judicious with your attacks.

"Lick your rival's plate clean before starting on your own."

marqueemoon 07-22-07 12:00 AM

I don't think Levi is done yet. Contador is pretty much the ideal softener in the mountain stages. So is Popo for that matter. If their attacks crash and burn they will exhaust some of Levi's rivals in the process too. I would be surprised if they're going to be under strict orders to wait for him at this point though.

Gee3 07-22-07 01:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by smoke (Post 4902809)
but i'll tell ya - i've never been so unimpressed with someone in fifth place as i am with levi. i don't dislike him, i just don't see a 'spark' there

I feel the same way at times. I really want to pull for him but he just doesn't seem to have that fight in him. Maybe we are spoiled by LA... And I'm really impresseed with Contador... even if he doesn't get the yellow I'm glad he's got the white. People will stand up and notice this guy more here on out (if they haven't already by his performances earlier in the year). But being the young/new guy can be to his advantage. The big guys can underestimate him and he may be able to sneak in some good rides, maybe even a stage win in the mountains. He's certainly someone to watch for the next few years!

But back to Levi... I will say that for someone that doesn't look to be doing much he's certainly moving up in the GC. I guess we'll have to wait and see...

dhut 07-22-07 07:01 AM

Every day Vino gets stronger, and Contadore is a better climber and a better TT. Just cant see him making the Podium let alone winning.

As a side note, I was happy to see Rasmussens time trial results. I am no fan, but it was good to see him overcome that demon.

roadgator 07-22-07 12:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by marqueemoon (Post 4903185)
I don't think Levi is done yet. Contador is pretty much the ideal softener in the mountain stages. So is Popo for that matter.

I think this should be reversed. In the TT and on todays stage, contador showed he has the goods to win it, more so than Levi. Levi himself said he cant accelerate in the mountains like Contador, and that is SO important to making time gaps on climbs. Plus, Contador had a better TT than Levi too.

If Disco flipped its "leadership" and had Popo and then Levi set a ridiculous pace up the climbs, Contador could launch a final attack strong enough to drop Rasmussen and everyone else.

Levi isnt going to win it (but could be on the podium), so disco should use him to win with Contador.

maddyfish 07-22-07 12:16 PM

Agree -I see no "spark" or "fight" from Levi, mnaybe that's just who he is. He is moving up in the standings, 4th as of now, but still looing time.

Maybe his plan is to let everybody else make mistakes while he rides a safe Tour.


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