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SunSwingsLow 07-19-07 06:06 PM

Teams that have multiple GC guys
 
Astana and DISCO both have 2 guys that at least appear they can contend for a podium spot in Paris. Is this detremental to the team to have 2 riders duking it out like this.

Granted this year with Vino so far back now it appears Kloden is "The Man" but is Vino convinced of this? If Levi and Contador stay close after the TT...then who is helping who to the finish and if they are divided in their effort are they hurting the teams chances.

ed073 07-19-07 09:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SunSwingsLow (Post 4889352)
Astana and DISCO both have 2 guys that at least appear they can contend for a podium spot in Paris. Is this detremental to the team to have 2 riders duking it out like this.

No.

SaintAndrew 07-19-07 09:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SunSwingsLow (Post 4889352)
Astana and DISCO both have 2 guys that at least appear they can contend for a podium spot in Paris. Is this detremental to the team to have 2 riders duking it out like this.

Granted this year with Vino so far back now it appears Kloden is "The Man" but is Vino convinced of this? If Levi and Contador stay close after the TT...then who is helping who to the finish and if they are divided in their effort are they hurting the teams chances.

yes, it is definitely detrimental, although i don't think disco is actually employing such a tactic. astana, on the other hand i could definitely keep hoping that vino could do something. what they should do is have everyone, including vino supporting klodi and that included sitting back in the upcoming ITT, but i guarantee we won't see that.

but in disco's case, meh. i think with this field it may be better to just let them both go for it. they will have to do their damage in the pyrenees, and they need both looking like GC threats.

Keith99 07-19-07 09:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SunSwingsLow (Post 4889352)
Astana and DISCO both have 2 guys that at least appear they can contend for a podium spot in Paris. Is this detremental to the team to have 2 riders duking it out like this.

Granted this year with Vino so far back now it appears Kloden is "The Man" but is Vino convinced of this? If Levi and Contador stay close after the TT...then who is helping who to the finish and if they are divided in their effort are they hurting the teams chances.

Depends on how you look at it. Hindsight is always 20-20. Look at Astana. People say they would have been better off with only 1 G.C. guy. That is fine if you pick the right one, but going in to the Tour that would have been Vino and if that had been the case they would be royally scr3wed now. A good DS can handle things. A poor onme does not deserve to have two good riders. Even when there is infighting things can work out, but more often the infighting is in hte imagination of writers trying to sell papers, thought I guess I can't complain too much about that when talking about the TDF.

Matt888 07-19-07 10:17 PM

How could it posibly be detrimental to have 2 guy's up there in the GC?
Your spaoncors would be thrilled. The best man will come out on top and there is a small chance you could end up with 2 riders one the podium in Paris. Sounds like a dream situation for any team.

SaintAndrew 07-19-07 10:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matt888 (Post 4890940)
How could it posibly be detrimental to have 2 guy's up there in the GC?
Your spaoncors would be thrilled. The best man will come out on top and there is a small chance you could end up with 2 riders one the podium in Paris. Sounds like a dream situation for any team.

ithink he ws referring to not happening to have 2 guy up there is GC, whcih is great, but to have your team working for two leaders, or worse yet having your best domestique riding his own race and not supporting the leader.

Matt888 07-20-07 01:11 AM

Quote "Astana and DISCO both have 2 guys that at least appear they can contend for a podium spot in Paris. Is this detremental to the team to have 2 riders duking it out like this."

And the answer to the question is no. How can it be.
Even if every guy in your team is duking it out for the GC at least they are up there and greatly increases the odds of one of your guy's winning. Your logic is the whole one leader one team theory? Yes?
Well I don't buy it. Even if 2 guy's from the same team are racing each other they will still be pacing each other and working together to an extent. If and when it comes down to them having to stop doing that in order to out fox the other to win. One of them will probably win. Hardly detremental to the team init.

meb 07-20-07 01:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SunSwingsLow (Post 4889352)
Astana and DISCO both have 2 guys that at least appear they can contend for a podium spot in Paris. Is this detremental to the team to have 2 riders duking it out like this.

Granted this year with Vino so far back now it appears Kloden is "The Man" but is Vino convinced of this? If Levi and Contador stay close after the TT...then who is helping who to the finish and if they are divided in their effort are they hurting the teams chances.

Let's diversify your gameplan.
Send your secondary GC man on a break, and he might slip away far enough to win. Or, if the GC rival runs it back down, the're worn out while your other GC man is fresh after sucking on the rival's tail.

gcl8a 07-20-07 02:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matt888 (Post 4891574)
Even if every guy in your team is duking it out for the GC at least they are up there and greatly increases the odds of one of your guy's winning.

You do understand that cycling is, or at least can be, a team sport, yes?

SunSwingsLow 07-20-07 06:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matt888 (Post 4891574)
Well I don't buy it. Even if 2 guy's from the same team are racing each other they will still be pacing each other and working together to an extent. If and when it comes down to them having to stop doing that in order to out fox the other to win. One of them will probably win. Hardly detremental to the team init.

I think it IS a detrement. Racing and pacing are not the same thing and if you are concerned about your teammate and defending his attacks as you would a rider from another team then it really seems moot to have him on your team.

It will be interesting to see how this all plays out after the ITT. Bruyneel has shown his brillance in the past...but the Kloden and Vino team have shown their weaknesses the past.

I found this article...

http://uk.eurosport.yahoo.com/170720...very-rise.html

For the time being Bruyneel appears to be saying that Levi is still the man.

efficiency 07-20-07 08:37 AM

Lemond and Hinault, 1985 and 1986. If both riders are strong, they both can end up on the podium. They still have 7 others to ride support for them, and they should both be around other GC contenders in mountain stages, so they should be close to each other.

Keith99 07-20-07 11:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by meb (Post 4891636)
Let's diversify your gameplan.
Send your secondary GC man on a break, and he might slip away far enough to win. Or, if the GC rival runs it back down, the're worn out while your other GC man is fresh after sucking on the rival's tail.

If executed a good tactic. But what if it blows up? Your secondary GC rider gives it his all but gets caught and the energy used by other TEAMS is mainly domestics and 2nd or third mountian support guys. Then on the final climb you find your main GC guy alone while the Main GC guys on other teams all still have their number 1 mountian support guy with them.

Just playing the devils advocate. I personally would blame the result on poor execution 90% of the time. 10% is someone forgetting his role, E.g. the number 2 GC guy not being willing to give up on the break. (For Americans not unlike a baseball pitcher who does not want to come out and is not entirely honest with his manager).

Having two GC guys can be good or bad. I'd say the most important thing is how good is your DS at managing multiple interests.

Of course one thing is always good for the team. Having 2 gets you talked about and as far as the sponsor is concerned that is why they pay you. That means you have satisfied the sponsor and they are likely to decide to pay you next year too.

One bad thing for the DS is that unless the team ends with someone in Yellow he will be second guessed for sure.


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