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Old 07-24-07, 07:32 PM   #1
FlashBazbo
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Why is Rasmussen still in the Tour?

I've seen the Versus reports of Rasmussen's indiscretions. To hear them tell it, he recently failed to inform the Danish authorities of his whereabouts while visiting relatives in Mexico. Versus makes it sound as if it were a one-time deal and some kind of inadvertent error. They portrayed it as if the Danish authorities were being unduly picky. Rasmussen obviously wants to leave the same impression.

Have you read the published reports in the press? This isn't a one-time deal. It is a FOUR-time deal. It is something Rasmussen has been consistently doing for a couple of years. They've told him that they consider testing during training to be MORE significant than testing during competition -- but he keeps doing this. He has apparently played the game out to the maximum grace periods, making it appear to be anything BUT inadvertent. Very systematic. And the rule, from the beginning, was that, if you avoid testing three or more times (as he has done) it is considered a positive test. (Just as refusing a DUI test is considered a positive test.) One has to ask -- if the limit is THREE avoidances, why didn't they act until he did it FOUR times?

On the side of the published reports is all the documentation of the history. Also on the side of the published reports is that Rasmussen is selling a story that is demonstrably false.

Given the desperate need for the Tour to portray a positive image, why is he still permitted to ride in the Tour?
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Old 07-24-07, 07:48 PM   #2
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I was watching the morning coverage when this first came out and was struck by Phil/Paul/Bobke's total dismissal of this. . .Bobke said several times that it was no big deal and that "if your plane is late" you get one of those notices, totally "outside of your control." I didn't know what was going on but it struck me as weird their defense of Rasmussen and knocking of Danish cycling. I was thinking, hold on, if there was nothing to this the Danish cycling org wouldn't throw the TDF leader off the squad. Must be more to it. . .but no, Bobke assures me he just probably got caught in a weather delay. . .

The funny thing is that Bobke must know about all the doping that went on/goes on. . .
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Old 07-24-07, 07:53 PM   #3
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"Michael Rasmussen should not have started the Tour," stated ASO President Patrice Clerc. "Why? In a period of crisis a champion has to be an example. In addition, his attitude, which we only know now, makes us believe that we should have refused his participation."
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Old 07-24-07, 07:55 PM   #4
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Versus is the mouthpiece of the Tour. No bad news ever comes from their mouths. Nothing is too damning for them to gloss over.
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Old 07-24-07, 07:56 PM   #5
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It isn't clear if it is due to 4 incidents or just 2 incidents that he was cited by both the UCI and the DCU.

He explained away one rather well at the press conference. He was supposed to file his whereabouts for April-June of that year on 15 March - note he had already provided info that was good up until the end of March.. He forgot. The UCI cited him on 24 March. He returned home from a UCI race on 1 April found the notice and provided his April-June info on 2 April. So the UCI didn't know where he was on 1 April - if that is the sum total of his error in that situation even the most jaded cycling fan can sympathize he made a small error. He can't hide a comprehensive doping plan by not having the UCI aware of his location for a single day - a day when he was most likely not scheduled to be tested.

I'm not saying he is a saint, but lets break down each instance and analyze it sanely. If there is something underhanded going on it will become obvious, but running around freaking out about some possibility of doping without a careful consideration of the facts isn't useful for anyone.
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Old 07-24-07, 08:02 PM   #6
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Ras has not committed a doping violation yet. Therefore, he gets to ride.

The rule is, if you miss more than 2 tests administered by a single organization, that's equivalent to a single adverse finding / failed test. IIRC Ras missed 2 by UCI and 2 by the Danish cycling org, over a period of several years. So there are no grounds to suspend him.

I might add he's obviously getting tested quite thoroughly whilst in Yellow; I'm sure they're checking for everything they can afford, including white blood cells in the shape of small kitchen sinks.
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Old 07-24-07, 08:16 PM   #7
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The funny thing is that Bobke must know about all the doping that went on/goes on. . .
Yeah, giving a rider the benefit of the doubt is indisputable evidence that Bobke is the doping ringleader. WADA should sign you up, you'll get to the bottom of this!!
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Old 07-24-07, 08:36 PM   #8
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To answer your main question, then Rasmussen haven't done anything that warrant an UCI sanction, and you have the UCI's word for that.

He has only committed two offenses, and you need three before they are considered a doping violation. UCI also forgot to inform both Rasmussen and his team about one of the warnings. The other two warnings are from AD Denmark, but since Rasmussen lives in Italy and rides on a Mexican license, it is doubtfull that they are legally valid since he doesn't live in Denmark. Rasmussen is married to a Mexican, and have been altitude training in Mexico since 1994.
One of his offenses was because his report was delayed by the postal system, not because Rasmussen was to late in sending in the report.

You claim that there are evidence that Rasmussen's story is "demonstrably false". To my knowledge the only untrue fact he has told was that he misremembered who he had talked to at UCI when he got a warning. Rasmussen claims that he thought he had settled that warning over the phone, which seems plausible since UCI forgot to send the warning to his team.

In short, Michael Rasmussen has done nothing that could get him legally kicked out of the tour. It would perhaps be interesting to know how many other Pro Tour riders that have more than one warning.

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Old 07-24-07, 09:03 PM   #9
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Yeah, giving a rider the benefit of the doubt is indisputable evidence that Bobke is the doping ringleader. WADA should sign you up, you'll get to the bottom of this!!
My point was that since he has been involved in cycling for the last 20 years he knows more than you or I will ever know about cycling and doping - which has been going on for his entire time in cycling. Not saying he was involved but certainly he knows riders, etc . . .
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Old 07-24-07, 09:27 PM   #10
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Versus is the mouthpiece of the Tour. No bad news ever comes from their mouths. Nothing is too damning for them to gloss over.
Its true that there is a voac quality to their broadcasts..... I do hope that they will treat this latest news with the attention and time it deserves.... We will see tomorrow!
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Old 07-25-07, 12:17 AM   #11
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To answer your main question, then Rasmussen haven't done anything that warrant an UCI sanction, and you have the UCI's word for that.

He has only committed two offenses, and you need three before they are considered a doping violation. UCI also forgot to inform both Rasmussen and his team about one of the warnings. The other two warnings are from AD Denmark, but since Rasmussen lives in Italy and rides on a Mexican license, it is doubtfull that they are legally valid since he doesn't live in Denmark. Rasmussen is married to a Mexican, and have been altitude training in Mexico since 1994.
One of his offenses was because his report was delayed by the postal system, not because Rasmussen was to late in sending in the report.

You claim that there are evidence that Rasmussen's story is "demonstrably false". To my knowledge the only untrue fact he has told was that he misremembered who he had talked to at UCI when he got a warning. Rasmussen claims that he thought he had settled that warning over the phone, which seems plausible since UCI forgot to send the warning to his team.

In short, Michael Rasmussen has done nothing that could get him legally kicked out of the tour. It would perhaps be interesting to know how many other Pro Tour riders that have more than one warning.

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This and Bacciagalupe's post have it correct: He has two warnings from UCI, and two from ADD, but you need three from one organization. His lawyer also disputes ADD's right to test him, since he doesn't ride on a Danish license.

The timeline for his trip to Mexico, however, is a little fishy. but technically, he didn't break enough rules to warrant disqualification.

I, too, would like to know how many riders miss critical testing in June.
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Old 07-25-07, 12:28 AM   #12
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keep in ind he was in a race during the scheduled time. at which time he was probably tested anyhow. Until he has commited a doping violation then I don't see why we should brand him guilty. We are just as terrible as the UCI. It's silly for us to try to understand the protocol and then argue against the rider. I won't give him the benefit of the doubt, however I will give him the respect I would give any other athlete who is wlling to be tested every single day in the yellow jersey and every day by your supportive team and also by the UCI and Pro Tour. .. Certainly if he is doping and is getting away with it then .. well there is truley no hope..
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Old 07-25-07, 02:06 AM   #13
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We all think so why was he before riding for Mexico, who doesn't test?

But the posts above about how he is being scrutinized during Le Tour has to be right on the mark. So if he wins, then congratulations! If we error, let's not error on the side of accusation unless there is proof. However, I'll wager he tests clean.
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Old 07-25-07, 02:11 AM   #14
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I, too, would like to know how many riders miss critical testing in June.
Rasmussen didn't miss a doping test. He failed to inform UCI of his whereabouts (for just a few days it seems), so they wouldn't have been able to test him in case they wanted to.

When interviewed for dutch TV, Michael Boogerd claimed there are at least 30 riders in the TdF that have received UCI warnings for similar "offenses" in the past couple of months.

Boogerd is Rasmussen's team mate, so take it for what it's worth.
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Old 07-25-07, 02:29 AM   #15
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Rasmussen didn't miss a doping test. He failed to inform UCI of his whereabouts (for just a few days it seems), so they wouldn't have been able to test him in case they wanted to.
See now, this is where I'm still confused. I noted in another thread that the Danish media said exactly this. But there are many places in the English media where they say he failed to show up for a test, or missed a test, or similar.

My Danish is not all that good, though, so I thought I was missing something.

For what it's worth, the statement by the UCI makes no note of a missed test, per se, either.
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Old 07-25-07, 02:38 AM   #16
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gcl8a, in English we can say he failed to show up for a test because he failed to show up at his house, where he said he would be, for one of the tests (or was it two?). The testers were waiting for him on at least one occassion (and boy do they know how to wait!) but he didn't come back. It was a failure to show up for a test.

I truly wonder if Rabobank - the bank, not the team - wants Rasmussen to win. It is bad for their image. There are about 2,500 stories about Rabobank on Google news feeds. About 1,350 of them are about missed drug tests and drug allegations. It's a terrible waste of money on Rabobank's part to pay millions of euros to get such negative publicity. They're signed up to support 'cycling' until 2014, but they have many programs, of which pro cycling is only one. I think their emphasis may change.
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Old 07-25-07, 02:51 AM   #17
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gcl8a, in English we can say he failed to show up for a test because he failed to show up at his house, where he said he would be, for one of the tests (or was it two?). The testers were waiting for him on at least one occassion (and boy do they know how to wait!) but he didn't come back. It was a failure to show up for a test.

I truly wonder if Rabobank - the bank, not the team - wants Rasmussen to win. It is bad for their image. There are about 2,500 stories about Rabobank on Google news feeds. About 1,350 of them are about missed drug tests and drug allegations. It's a terrible waste of money on Rabobank's part to pay millions of euros to get such negative publicity. They're signed up to support 'cycling' until 2014, but they have many programs, of which pro cycling is only one. I think their emphasis may change.
How you say in English: "Any news is good news."?
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Old 07-25-07, 03:06 AM   #18
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gcl8a, in English we can say he failed to show up for a test because he failed to show up at his house, where he said he would be, for one of the tests (or was it two?). The testers were waiting for him on at least one occassion (and boy do they know how to wait!) but he didn't come back. It was a failure to show up for a test.
Are you referring to the Rasmussen case or is this hypothetical? In all the reports I've read that seem somewhat informed there is no indication that there were testers waiting for Rasmussen.
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Old 07-25-07, 04:28 AM   #19
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during this tour he has been tested 14 times....fourteen. and none positive.


so he seems to be clean.

george
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Old 07-25-07, 04:42 AM   #20
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Life has taught me a few things. One of them . . . when people are clean, they don't avoid tests. They don't use loopholes in rules to avoid tests -- much less FOUR of them over two years. They don't need excuses like, "The dog ate my homework" or "I forgot." Let's face it -- it's his JOB to remember. This is pretty important stuff. There's a reason he's "forgeting."

When you're clean, you're eager to take the tests. I don't know of any alcohol-free individual who ever minded taking a breathalyzer.

IF Rasmussen is clean during the Tour (a BIG "if"), his actions shout that he wasn't clean during training.
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Old 07-25-07, 04:50 AM   #21
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Life has taught me a few things. One of them . . . when people are clean, they don't avoid tests. They don't use loopholes in rules to avoid tests -- much less FOUR of them over two years. They don't need excuses like, "The dog ate my homework" or "I forgot." Let's face it -- it's his JOB to remember. This is pretty important stuff. There's a reason he's "forgeting."

When you're clean, you're eager to take the tests. I don't know of any alcohol-free individual who ever minded taking a breathalyzer.

IF Rasmussen is clean during the Tour (a BIG "if"), his actions shout that he wasn't clean during training.
Its been four over four years, two over two years.

Four in two years would be over the limit.

A certain number of missed surprise tests permitted as whereabouts are not always precisley known a month in advance.
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Old 07-25-07, 04:56 AM   #22
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during this tour he has been tested 14 times....fourteen. and none positive.


so he seems to be clean.

george
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Old 07-25-07, 05:16 AM   #23
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here is a question, what good would doping during training do, if you did not continue to do so through the tour? Wouldn't your body become accustomed to the external aid, resulting in a reduction of natural oxygen carriers, for example? So when you stopped doping, you would be at a major disadvantage, such as Vino's collapse in the stage following the TT.
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Old 07-25-07, 05:39 AM   #24
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here is a question, what good would doping during training do, if you did not continue to do so through the tour? Wouldn't your body become accustomed to the external aid, resulting in a reduction of natural oxygen carriers, for example? So when you stopped doping, you would be at a major disadvantage, such as Vino's collapse in the stage following the TT.
epo-doping lasts up to six weeks. if you don't want to get caught you simply have to avoid unannounced tests (i.e. if you don't tell them your whereabouts) and stop using epo before important races. and no, after the effects are gone, you simply return to your normal potential.
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Old 07-25-07, 05:40 AM   #25
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Well, until there is some evidence of actual doping, maybe we should just wait and see. Making an accusation of doping is serious business and you can't unring that bell.
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