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Old 07-25-07, 10:55 AM   #26
Blaireau
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^^ just to continue the wild speculation that is this thread.......ullrich never tested positive on a test, neither did basso.....who knows how armstrong got around them....i suspect he was more careful than the others, he probably didn't trust his blood with a doctor who would have labeled it 'the look'
Obviously Lance doped. If you don't believe that, you might as well believe in the tooth fairy. certainly its no wonder that the people who believe Lance is clean, are the people who swallowed whole Bush's lies about Iraq and WMD's...

Lance was more than likely better about disguising his doping than other riders. He was certainly better and more meticulous then others in the peloton with respect to all other aspects of his training and preparation -- by far.

Note that most dopers got caught because of police investigations or customs checks....(except for idiots like Landis and Vino).... This should tell you something about the efficacy of the testing procedures put in place by the notoriously corrupt and political UCI.
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Old 07-25-07, 10:58 AM   #27
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point that seems to be missing is.........doping or not.....for me anyway, its never taken away from the excitement of watching cycling...but then again i don't hang all my hopes and dreams on a bunch of guys on bikes just to be crushed when allegations come forth......i just enjoy watching
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Old 07-25-07, 11:35 AM   #28
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point that seems to be missing is.........doping or not.....for me anyway, its never taken away from the excitement of watching cycling...but then again i don't hang all my hopes and dreams on a bunch of guys on bikes just to be crushed when allegations come forth......i just enjoy watching

Ditto.
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Old 07-25-07, 11:42 AM   #29
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[QUOTE=Blaireau;4927390]Obviously Lance doped.QUOTE]

He must have, he is American and he won.
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Old 07-25-07, 11:48 AM   #30
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I would think lance was using the same technique as Vino but rather his own blood instead of some donated. I'm sure he monitored it better and from what I understand if you do blood doping with your own plasma it is pretty much impossible to detect unless you have a unusually high Hemo.

werd.
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Old 07-25-07, 12:02 PM   #31
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I believe that Lance's hematicrit level never went over something like 47%. Does anyone else remember seeing that info published? I think I saw that a year or two ago, but this CRS is killing me.
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Old 07-25-07, 12:03 PM   #32
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But Lance beat cancer
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Old 07-25-07, 12:07 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by benbaconlewis View Post
He was probably the most tested sportsman in the world. How would he have got away with it?

If even the best were and are getting caught, even though they presumably have access to the best doping methods, how can you explain Lance not getting caught if he doped?
Autologous blood doping can't be detected. At least not yet.

But without any real evidence, any speculation and conjecture is just wasted time and energy.
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Old 07-25-07, 12:15 PM   #34
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Reality check to Botto and other. One CAN know. One DOES know. Lance took Epo in 1999. Though of course many ignore this thanks to the Lance talking points arguments # 1, 2 and 3: blame the French lab, blame the French Press, and blame the French in general etc, etc....

That sure sounds like a statement of fact. You base this claim on what, a journalist looking into frozen urine specimens years after the fact? Talk about a controlled scientific testing procedure.

Do not mistake me for coming to LA's defense. My whole point is that in the face of no credible evidence, one must be agnostic on this matter (as on many others in life...). I agree there is plenty of circumstantial stuff floating around that appears to point to something going on. But, still no smoking gun, nor will there ever likely be one. His game is over. The time for a failed test for him is gone. If he did dope, he got away with it. If he was clean, great job!! Armchair judges in the matter can speculate all you want. But you'll never KNOW.
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Old 07-25-07, 12:17 PM   #35
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But Lance beat cancer
But we know for a fact Lance was on EPO when he beat cancer.
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Old 07-25-07, 12:18 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by benbaconlewis View Post
He was probably the most tested sportsman in the world. How would he have got away with it?

If even the best were and are getting caught, even though they presumably have access to the best doping methods, how can you explain Lance not getting caught if he doped?
This has been discussed over and over.
You cannot detect blood doping with one's own blood, you cannot detect EPO doping with untagged EPO.
Many riders caught in Operacion Puerto, never tested positive.

Lance's doper is Dr. Ferrari, the best in the business, and the doper of many others, including Vinokourov.
Lance spent most of his training days in Spain, the center of blood doping until very recently.

Many, including ex-teamates such as Frankie Andrieu, have sworn, under oath, in court, that Armstrong was using many products and US Postal/Discovery (home of Landis, Andrieu, Hamilton, Basso etc.) had an active doping program.

Last edited by DocRay; 07-25-07 at 12:31 PM.
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Old 07-25-07, 12:40 PM   #37
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This has been discussed over and over.
You cannot detect blood doping with one's own blood, you cannot detect EPO doping with untagged EPO.
Many riders caught in Operacion Puerto, never tested positive.

Lance's doper is Dr. Ferrari, the best in the business, and the doper of many others, including Vinokourov.
Lance spent most of his training days in Spain, the center of blood doping until very recently.

Many, including ex-teamates such as Frankie Andrieu, have sworn, under oath, in court, that Armstrong was using many products and US Postal/Discovery (home of Landis, Andrieu, Hamilton, Basso etc.) had an active doping program.
But, Lance beat cancer (no wonder he considers that a greater achievement than winning the Tour 7 times).
But Lance is an American (So is Andreu, Tyler, Flandis - the American who were caught or admitted to doping).
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Old 07-25-07, 12:44 PM   #38
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Reality check to Botto and other. One CAN know. One DOES know. Lance took Epo in 1999. Though of course many ignore this thanks to the Lance talking points arguments # 1, 2 and 3: blame the French lab, blame the French Press, and blame the French in general etc, etc....
The EPO result for the 1999 sample was never reproduced with a second sample. I doubt that first result was real, as everyone knows that many riders used untagged, undetectable EPO, or homologous blood doping.

Armstrong's hematocrit never exceeded 48%, but the limit is 50% and the normal human range is 42-46%.
We don't know what Armstrong's normal hematocrit levels are-he could be a natural 48%, or a doped 42%.
Bjarne Riis tested as high as 60%-but never tested positive for EPO. He's lucky to be alive.

Armstrong took EPO to recover from chemotherapy -this drug likely saved his life, as it has saved the life of many others. However, the other effects of EPO are not known, and some labs are testing whether EPO has other performance enhancing effects other than increased red blood cells. A newer, more powerful EPO-based drug from Amgen has now been seen to trigger cancer.

This is all a mess, and sorry, I can't watch Rasmussen and Contador attack all day and remove the common sense section of my brain. Pro racing is a joke.
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Old 07-25-07, 12:48 PM   #39
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Originally Posted by benbaconlewis View Post
He was probably the most tested sportsman in the world. How would he have got away with it?

If even the best were and are getting caught, even though they presumably have access to the best doping methods, how can you explain Lance not getting caught if he doped?
Riis won the TdF and was never caught doping:

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?...ay07/may26news

Jan also won the Tour and was not caught until after Lance retired. Eric Zabel just admitted to doping and never failed a test. The list goes on and on.

Don't get me wrong, Lance is an inspiration. However, you would have to be foolish not to believe that the entire pro tour was not doping in the 90's.
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Old 07-25-07, 12:50 PM   #40
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Instead, lets talk about a guy who was tested thousands of times during his career. And passed every test. Requested to show up for testing thousands of times. And showed up every time.
While I agree with your point, I think "hundreds" is a little more accurate than "thousands" of drug tests.

I doubt he was even tested more than 50 times each year, not every day like it would take to be tested thousands of times.
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Old 07-25-07, 01:34 PM   #41
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That sure sounds like a statement of fact. You base this claim on what, a journalist looking into frozen urine specimens years after the fact? Talk about a controlled scientific testing procedure.
I don't know where you heard that, but it wasn't a journalist that conducted the tests. These were tests done with the same procedure as doping tests are today. And he was found to be positive for EPO on multiple days in 1999.
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Old 07-25-07, 01:37 PM   #42
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The EPO result for the 1999 sample was never reproduced with a second sample.
It was something like 3-5 samples that gave a positive result.

Quote:
Armstrong's hematocrit never exceeded 48%, but the limit is 50% and the normal human range is 42-46%.
We don't know what Armstrong's normal hematocrit levels are-he could be a natural 48%, or a doped 42%.
That's only in test results. It's easy to temporarily lower hematocrit to pass the test, and people have admitted to regularily using the technique in the late 90s, once the hematocrit test started. This is common knowledge. For all we know, Armstrong could have been riding at 55%.
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Old 07-25-07, 01:40 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by Blaireau View Post
Reality check to Botto and other. One CAN know. One DOES know. Lance took Epo in 1999. Though of course many ignore this thanks to the Lance talking points arguments # 1, 2 and 3: blame the French lab, blame the French Press, and blame the French in general etc, etc....
I'll give you 1999 but that still leaves 6 more wins.
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Old 07-25-07, 01:56 PM   #44
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The loophole in the 1999 lance EPO fiasco is there was no way to
know that the samples were not contaminated (intentionally for the tests),
there was no clear chain of possession. Remember the only reason they
even were running tests was to refine their testing techniques. My understanding
is that it wasn't a fishing expedition looking for dopers from 7 years ago. Only
Dick Pound and WADA thought to do that.

I wish to god that we could drop the "LANCE DID HE DOPE OR NOT ?" threads and whole issue.
It's done, he's retired.

Personally I think when the aliens abducted him (and elvis) they DID something
to him to make him superhuman (or he isn't really human. . . think about it).

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Old 07-25-07, 02:21 PM   #45
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Pardon my old engineering habits but; Is testing for self blood doping done by seeing if you have over a given amount of red blood cells per unit volume in your blood? And is this limit set higher then that in someone whose ancestors have been living at over 15,000 feet elevation for generations? What is the current limit for bike racers? 10,000 cells per cubic ml? Or 1,00,000 or what?
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Old 07-25-07, 02:53 PM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DocRay View Post
This has been discussed over and over.
You cannot detect blood doping with one's own blood, you cannot detect EPO doping with untagged EPO.
Many riders caught in Operacion Puerto, never tested positive.

Lance's doper is Dr. Ferrari, the best in the business, and the doper of many others, including Vinokourov.
Lance spent most of his training days in Spain, the center of blood doping until very recently.

Many, including ex-teamates such as Frankie Andrieu, have sworn, under oath, in court, that Armstrong was using many products and US Postal/Discovery (home of Landis, Andrieu, Hamilton, Basso etc.) had an active doping program.
I believe Andreu's testimony was not that he observed Armstrong taking drugs, but that Armstrong admitted it in the hospital prior to surgery to remove all the cancer. Not saying Andreu was lying -- I am still an Andreu fan -- but it wasn't testimony of systematic doping. FWIW, the only other person to confirm the testimony was his wife.

I agree with the earlier poster that with Armstrong, agnosticism will rule the day unless he just decides to come out and say, "I doped." I don't buy the '99 tests as definitive evidence due to the reasons others have states, (the UCI report on this is pretty interesting), but given the number of folks he beat who have been found guilty of drug offenses, he was either on the juice or truly a unique and gifted physical specimen (which he is anyway, but you know what I mean). I would like to believe the latter, but suspect the former.
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