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Rasmussen gone?

Old 07-25-07, 11:03 PM
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Originally Posted by oilman_15106
My boss used to take out his fishing boat every Friday about noon. I would be fired if I told anybody where he was.
Was his secretary absent, as well?
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Old 07-25-07, 11:19 PM
  #277  
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Originally Posted by Bacciagalupe
Well, think of it this way. Let's say you told your boss you were going to be in the Mexico City office for the month of June (remember, he's training and collecting a salary). However, you go to Florence instead. Not only that, but you lie to your boss and your customers about your whereabouts. Would you be surprised if your boss fired you the instant he found out?

<snip>

Personally, if he really did dope I think his only chance is to come clean, take a 2 year ban, and then get back into the sport.
If I told my boss I was in Mexico for June and went to Florence instead, then came back to Brooklyn in July and crushed all the other sales staff, where I had been in June wouldn't matter one bit.

That said, the fact that he went missing and was with "some as yet unidentified doctor" makes you wonder.
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Old 07-25-07, 11:22 PM
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Originally Posted by USAZorro
I hope it wasn't because of intimidation. I'm definitely not a fan of his, but unless there's some illness or rules violation, the race needs to be determined on the road.

Umm...yeah, just a "minor" rules violation...

Determined on the road requires that you submit to required drug tests...

After that, you may determine it on the road as much as you like...

He is a farking cheater, guilty with no chance of proving innocence...

Unless he can prove he took a wrong turn at "Albequirky..."
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Old 07-25-07, 11:28 PM
  #279  
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Originally Posted by orcanova
Determined on the road requires that you submit to required drug tests...
Apparently, you only have to submit to all but two required tests. You can sure bet that rule is going to be tightened.
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Old 07-25-07, 11:53 PM
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Reading some of the reactions from other riders, I'm really suprised. Some really damning words. It's almost as if this anti-doping thing isn't a charade. The riders now realize how serious this situation is, and instead of the code of silence of the last century, they're really pissed off at anyone who gets caught!

https://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?...l07/jul26news3

"Teams like Astana win by using un ethical means, taking all the publicity that belong to the clean riders and teams. We can't let that go by," he concluded.
The Quick.Step rider was lying on the massage table when he got the news about Vinokourov, as a text message on his mobile phone. "We have all worked so hard," he said, "we have had fantastic successes with this team, and Vinokourov helps throw all of that away."
"There are a lot of riders in his team whose contracts will expire at the end of the season," he stated to HLN.be. "Thanks to him they may also be living on the street. If a rider like him was in my team, I wouldn't hesitate to punch him in the face."
"We are not scared to talk about Rasmussen, only your grandmother would believe that you missed four doping controls by accident,"
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Old 07-26-07, 12:29 AM
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Originally Posted by grebletie
There's also the uncomfortable fact that whatever Bonds may or may not have done was not against MLB rules at the time. The player's union resisted an agreement on drug testing until 2005, making the analogy somewhat dubious.
The problem with this argument is that taking steroids is without a prescription is against the law. When he juiced, he was in fact commiting a crime.
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Old 07-26-07, 12:52 AM
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Originally Posted by blue_nose
The problem with this argument is that taking steroids is without a prescription is against the law. When he juiced, he was in fact commiting a crime.
Yeah, but he(nor anybody else) still wasn't breaking the rules of the game at the time. And even with testing now HGH isn't tested for. My problem with everyone knocking the Bonds situation is that we have no idea how many players were juicing at the time. It was sure more than just Bonds and Big Mac. And there are plenty of pitchers out there in their late 30's having career years too. To rip on just Bonds like he's the only guy is wrong. Because he wasn't/isn't the only guy doing it. And again, the league didn't care. So you really can't blame the players. Who's to say that A-Rod isn't taking HGH. He's bigger than he was when he came up with the Mariners. And he's the likely candidate to break whatever number Bonds puts up. Or Albert Pujols too. He ain't no little dude either.

Its difficult to compare NFL, MLB, and NBA drug use to sports like cycling and track & field. While being bigger, stronger, and faster is always an advantage, in football, baseball, and basketball the results of performance enhancing drugs aren't necessarily a direct advantage to performance in the sport. In cycling and T&F, the use has a direct recordable impact on the atheletes performance in that sport. In baseball, more pitchers have tested positive for steroid use than any other position. Primarily for recovery purposes. In football, being bigger and stronger doesn't necessarily translate to being a better player. Anybody remeber the colassal bust of Tony Mandarich?

Everyone seems to get all wrapped up emotionally into this issue of performance enhancing drugs. In the end we'll never know all of the atheletes who are doing it. But the sports will survive. They'll do what they can, but there will always be the cloud of suspicion.
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Old 07-26-07, 01:44 AM
  #283  
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Originally Posted by DMF
I agree with Chris Horner. "I'm a rider. I'm clean. You're telling me I should quit because someone else cheated? No f*g way!"
you do realize that "I'm clean" means "I haven't been caught"?
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Old 07-26-07, 02:38 AM
  #284  
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Dutch media report that the remaining Rabo riders will start today.
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Old 07-26-07, 02:44 AM
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Originally Posted by jkoman
Most of us knew the riders doped...most of them. Those who didn't admit this had heads in the sand, almost all of the older riders admit or sorta admit doping. It's a part of this and other sports culture.
Absolutely true. The point is how to dope without being detected and it seems that most of the riders manage to do it. That's why a friend told me that Discovery team deserves to win this Tour de France because during 7 years they were not detected doping !
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Old 07-26-07, 06:29 AM
  #286  
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I feel like crying.
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Old 07-26-07, 07:09 AM
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Originally Posted by shawnj73
There is no proof that he did anything wrong except for a guy says he saw him in Europe when he said he was in Mexico. Yes; he did miss a couple UCI tests, but they let him start the tour. WTF. As far as I know he has never tested positive for any band substance!
Well Ras seems to be confused about where he was. He is now saying he was not in Italy but according to cyclingnews.com, not only was he seen in Italy but, "
When Rasmussen was confronted with this information he confirmed to Theo de Rooy [team manager] he was at that moment in Italy," said Rabobank press officer Jacob Bergsma last night. "That was the reason De Rooy decided to get him out of the Tour and the team."
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Old 07-26-07, 08:04 AM
  #288  
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Originally Posted by whiney
Haven't you noticed that this hate started when they decided to thaw LA's pee ?
It actually started when they violated protocols by releasing LA's name in the press as EPO+ without having the ability to confirm the test as required in the rules.

Most people know that their results are probably correct, but the attitude in the US is that if you are going to ruin someone over a result, you'd better be damned sure its accurate. If protocols are violated to get the result, it raises questions over the rest of the result. Thats just the way it is. Most people have great suspicion over LA, and most think FL's tests were accurate, but the messy work, the leaking to the press...they make it stink just a bit, so it leaves a sense that the lab is happy to nail them...leading to questions...did they "help" the results? If i's were dotted, t's were crossed and they didn't run to the press the moment they found something, none of this would be an issue.
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Old 07-26-07, 08:14 AM
  #289  
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Originally Posted by Laggard
Tons of fair weathered Tour fans. Sorta sad.
99ers.

So, what makes y'all think the chicken only has 1 passport? Danish, lives in Italy and has a Mexican
wife?

I've heard that Menchov just abandoned and Boogard was reported to want to leave
yesterday.

I for one, will continue to watch cycling. I might remind you that there are other races,
go watch the spring classics, watch the Giro or Vuelta or what ever race you can get
broadcast.
If we abandon cycling they might as well replace the whole thing with extreme Cage match
running of the bulls.

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Old 07-26-07, 08:14 AM
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Originally Posted by vic32amg
I apologize to those who I have been in conflict with in defending Rasmussen.

No need to apologzie. Instead, please just stop.
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Old 07-26-07, 08:16 AM
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Originally Posted by Hambone
If I told my boss I was in Mexico for June and went to Florence instead, then came back to Brooklyn in July and crushed all the other sales staff, where I had been in June wouldn't matter one bit.
Until it came out you were [possibly] in Florence learning how to crack your company's internal control so you could fake your sales data.
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Old 07-26-07, 08:24 AM
  #292  
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Could all of this be good for viewership in the United States? Americans love a controversy and this years tour has not been a disappointment. It made the front page of our local paper here, the front page! Until this, you had to scour the sports section to see anything. Could it be possible that we will gain people watching just to see and hear the spectacle of all of this.... people like Nascar to see the wrecks, people slow down on the freeway looking for blood at an accident. Could it be that this hard-lined stance could not only help send a strong message and clean up the sport but also have more eyeballs on Versus than ever before?
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Old 07-26-07, 08:26 AM
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Originally Posted by DogBoy
Ithe attitude in the US is that if you are going to ruin someone over a result, you'd better be damned sure its accurate. If protocols are violated to get the result, it raises questions over the rest of the result. Thats just the way it is.
As a new cycling enthusiast, this is exactly the feeling I have (not only about LA, but about this year's Tour).

I mean, so far we've had an entire team thrown out because of the result of a single rider's "A" sample. Now, that's pretty damning, sure; but what happened to the "B" sample? I am a lab researcher by trade, and a single result in science is meaningless without confirmation by repetition. The people in charge of the doping control obviously know this too, hence the existence of "B" samples in the first place.

If you get punished before that "B" sample is even tested though, what good is it? If I ran my research the way these dope testing labs run, no-one in my field would believe a single scrap of data I ever produced, and I'd be run out of the field in short order. In cycling, people's reputations are being irreversibly ruined as a result of these practices that no reputable scientist would ever endorse. And everyone else seems happy about that, as long as sommeone is getting "caught".

Now we have the current yellow jersey holder removed, seemingly on the un-corroborated word of a single witness. I guess it's Rabobank's right to fire any tetam member they want, but it sure does stink to someone who lives under the philosophy of "Innocent until proven guilty".

My take on this whole thing is that pro cycling is so desperate to appear as though they're being tough on doping that they're not even bothering to follow their own procedures on the matter. Rather, they're just throwing anyone out who looks as though they're guilty, without bothering with the proper follow-through.
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Old 07-26-07, 08:31 AM
  #294  
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Originally Posted by orcanova
Umm...yeah, just a "minor" rules violation...

Determined on the road requires that you submit to required drug tests...

After that, you may determine it on the road as much as you like...

He is a farking cheater, guilty with no chance of proving innocence...

Unless he can prove he took a wrong turn at "Albequirky..."
I'm not disagreeing with you - although the circumstances are a bit (if you'll pardon the expression) like a kangaroo court. If he has actually cheated, he belongs out of the race.

When I posted that comment, all that had been heard was that Rasmussen was out - no explanation of why. After hearing of the bombs on the course, it wasn't clear what the reason was, and I was hoping he wasn't withdrawing for reasons of personal safety after receiving threats. That would have been wrong.
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Old 07-26-07, 08:32 AM
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Originally Posted by DMF
I agree with Chris Horner. "I'm a rider. I'm clean. You're telling me I should quit because someone else cheated? No f*g way!"
What does "clean" mean to Chris Horner?
  1. "Never used performance enhancing drugs" (does not exclude blood doping)
  2. "Have never tested positive" (does not exclude using substances when he wasn't tested, or using substances for which he was not tested, or that could not be detected).
Based on the history of countless riders who later turned out to be cheaters, either or both is very likely.
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Old 07-26-07, 08:33 AM
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Originally Posted by WRXpilot
. . .

Now we have the current yellow jersey holder removed, seemingly on the un-corroborated word of a single witness. I guess it's Rabobank's right to fire any tetam member they want, but it sure does stink to someone who lives under the philosophy of "Innocent until proven guilty".
"When Rasmussen was confronted with this information he confirmed to [team manager] Theo de Rooy he was at that moment in Italy," said Rabobank press officer Jacob Bergsma. "That was the reason De Rooy decided to get him out of the Tour and the team." - from www.cyclingnews.com.

Innocent until proven guilty applies quite well in U.S. law,This however isn't U.S. law. Knowing the
dutch and their propensity for legal rights you can be damned sure that they were well within their legal right to fire him.

he lied, he got caught, he confessed, he got fired. pretty clear cut to me (atmo).
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Old 07-26-07, 08:52 AM
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There is also a press quote from deRooy saying he was visiting an unknown doctor in Italy, and so the team decision is understandable.

It still raises the question that if riders have the means to cheat in undetectable ways, should you be able to change the rules and DQ them (not exactly DQ happened), even if you can't catch them cheating.

I think blacklisting some doctors is a good idea, but it shouldn't be done retroactively.
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Old 07-26-07, 09:01 AM
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Originally Posted by lotek
"When Rasmussen was confronted with this information he confirmed to [team manager] Theo de Rooy he was at that moment in Italy," said Rabobank press officer Jacob Bergsma. "That was the reason De Rooy decided to get him out of the Tour and the team." - from www.cyclingnews.com.
[SNIP]
he lied, he got caught, he confessed, he got fired. pretty clear cut to me (atmo).
Except Ras denies that version of the events:
Originally Posted by Agence France Presse
Filed: July 26, 2007
Michael Rasmussen has reacted angrily to being kicked out of the Tour de France and sacked by his team after allegedly lying about his whereabouts during a missed random dope test.
Rabobank dramatically split with Rasmussen after the Danish rider had consolidated his race lead with victory in Wednesday's 16th stage.
The Dutch team justified its action by saying Rasmussen had lied when he said he'd been in Mexico rather than Italy for one of the four dope tests he failed to show up for in the past 18 months.
But, in an interview with Danish newspaper B.T. Rasmussen questioned his team manager Theo de Rooy's decision to drop him.
"It's the work of a desperate man who is at the end of his nerves," Rasmussen told the paper's website. "My boss is mad. I wasn't in Italy, no way. That's the story of one man (former cyclist and now an Italian television presenter Davide Cassani) who thinks he saw me. But there's not the slightest proof."
Doesn't sound like a man who's confessed to me.

You're right though, US Law does not apply to the Tour - but as a viewer from the US the entire process still seems utterly distasteful. Pro cycling's current anti-doping campaign resembles a witch-hunt more than it does a fair process based on the principles of justice.
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Old 07-26-07, 09:05 AM
  #299  
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So how many people that are bashing Ras also think that Floyd is innocent? or not guilty?
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Old 07-26-07, 09:08 AM
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Originally Posted by the Chicken
"It's the work of a desperate man who is at the end of his nerves... My boss is mad. I wasn't in Italy, no way. That's the story of one man (former cyclist and now an Italian television presenter Davide Cassani) who thinks he saw me. But there's not the slightest proof."
It seems hard to believe all of this is over one allegation.
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