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Old 08-21-07, 03:52 PM   #1
pdxtex
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Landis trial. Why in the $%^ is it taking so long?

He's not OJ, or Michael Jackson, or some other celebrity with some long ass trial, or so we thought?!!! The question was did he, or did he not use drugs? Simple....So why is the verdict taking so long? Is the defense still trying to discredit the French lab? Im confused and pissed that I still don't know who won the 2006 TDF. ****, we are going into September 2007.
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Old 08-21-07, 03:57 PM   #2
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He's not OJ, or Michael Jackson, or some other celebrity with some long ass trial, or so we thought?!!! The question was did he, or did he not use drugs? Simple....So why is the verdict taking so long? Is the defense still trying to discredit the French lab? Im confused and pissed that I still don't know who won the 2006 TDF. ****, we are going into September 2007.
Easy--they know they fracked up and are trying to figure out how to save face
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Old 08-21-07, 07:37 PM   #3
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If they find against Landis they are faced with the reality that they have found someone guilty without credible evidence. This could have terrible repercussions thoughout the sport. I think the evidence is not conclusive against Landis and that is why they are taking so long.
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Old 08-21-07, 08:10 PM   #4
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im not an expert on the situation, and not to bring up old news, but didn't the B sample come back positive too? aside from saying the french lab mishandled the samples, there is not much the defense can say.....
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Old 08-21-07, 09:20 PM   #5
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He's not OJ, or Michael Jackson, or some other celebrity with some long ass trial, or so we thought?!!! The question was did he, or did he not use drugs? Simple....So why is the verdict taking so long? Is the defense still trying to discredit the French lab? Im confused and pissed that I still don't know who won the 2006 TDF. ****, we are going into September 2007.
i hear ya and i'm kinda waiting for the other sidi to drop in the 2007 TDF .

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Old 08-21-07, 10:10 PM   #6
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I think the USADA picked judge has voted guilty, Floyd's pick voted not, the third voted not also, and USADA is trying to influence him to change his finding before they have to announce.
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Old 08-21-07, 10:14 PM   #7
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It seems like there should be some sort of time limit for how long after the hearing closes before a verdict has to be announced. Otherwise they can impose their own unofficial 2 year ban on an athlete just by stalling long enough. This is ridiculous!!!
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Old 08-21-07, 10:47 PM   #8
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im not an expert on the situation, and not to bring up old news, but didn't the B sample come back positive too? aside from saying the french lab mishandled the samples, there is not much the defense can say.....
its not as simple as that. I was suprised to learn that the different labsa ll have different criteria for what constitutes a "positive" test. At his hearing scientists from a number of labs--including the labs in the USA testified that had they tested the sample, it would not have met the criteria for a positive.
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Old 08-21-07, 11:45 PM   #9
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its not as simple as that. I was suprised to learn that the different labsa ll have different criteria for what constitutes a "positive" test. At his hearing scientists from a number of labs--including the labs in the USA testified that had they tested the sample, it would not have met the criteria for a positive.
hmmm. interesting point. so who ultimately sets the standards for what constitues a positive test, WADA? the UCI....the whole thing is confusing to me.....concerning a time limit, it does seem like a more reasonable amount of time to handle these matters needs to be in place. anyway.......*head spinning*
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Old 08-22-07, 08:01 AM   #10
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hmmm. interesting point. so who ultimately sets the standards for what constitues a positive test, WADA? the UCI....the whole thing is confusing to me.....concerning a time limit, it does seem like a more reasonable amount of time to handle these matters needs to be in place. anyway.......*head spinning*
I could be wrong on this, but the way I understand itis that WADA sets the thresholds (in Landis' case, the 4:1 testosterone to epitosterone ratio) and then each individual WADA lab uses its own criteria to determine whether or not that threshold is met. Its not like taking a piss test for your employer and the doc saying, ohh geez, you've got THC in your system.
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Old 08-22-07, 09:12 AM   #11
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I believe WADA will certify the test, and several other labs did testify, during the hearing, that they would interpret that same data as a positive.

In theory the actual tests, and therefore the standards, are determined by peer review and scientific studies. WADA will then say "yes, this test is reliable" or "no, it's not good enough."

Some of these tests are highly interpretive. I may be wrong, but the isotope test isn't too interpretive though -- either you have the isotopes associated with synthetic testosterone in your blood, or you don't. Isotope signatures are fairly unique.

My recollection is that one or two of Landis' defense witnesses suggested the technicians did not operate the machine properly. I don't remember anyone saying that the standards themselves were moving targets.
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Old 08-22-07, 09:51 AM   #12
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Some of these tests are highly interpretive. I may be wrong, but the isotope test isn't too interpretive though -- either you have the isotopes associated with synthetic testosterone in your blood, or you don't. Isotope signatures are fairly unique.
Not quite. The isotope test depends on ratios of isotopes. So it is not a have any and it is positive. But it is not an out and out interpertive test either. The ratio is a hard number.
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Old 08-22-07, 10:13 AM   #13
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I believe WADA will certify the test, and several other labs did testify, during the hearing, that they would interpret that same data as a positive.

In theory the actual tests, and therefore the standards, are determined by peer review and scientific studies. WADA will then say "yes, this test is reliable" or "no, it's not good enough."

Some of these tests are highly interpretive. I may be wrong, but the isotope test isn't too interpretive though -- either you have the isotopes associated with synthetic testosterone in your blood, or you don't. Isotope signatures are fairly unique.

My recollection is that one or two of Landis' defense witnesses suggested the technicians did not operate the machine properly. I don't remember anyone saying that the standards themselves were moving targets.
I believe an expert from the US lab at UCLA testified that the test would not have been a positive at his lab. The ratio standard is "hard" 4:1--but it does require interpetation to determine what ratio the sample actually has.

Landis' defense also brought out several other "irregularities" such as that the lab techs had the wrong software loaded into the machines, were not properly trained as to how to use the machines (did not have user manuals), some machines utilizing magnets still had some of the metal carrying handles attached to them, there had been a bacterial contamination of other samples at the lab the same summer Landis' samples were tested, the lab techs knew it was his sample, they tested his A sample 3 times and it came back 4.9:1, 5.1:1, and 11:1---but utilized only the last number. They also did more tests on previous B samples that suppossedly came back as "positive" even though the original A samples had not.

Whether Landis actually doped or not, no one will ever know. However, based on the testimony at the hearing, there is no doubt that this lab in france is run by a bunch of incompetent beancounters who don't follow their own internal procedures and never bother to properly train people. I wouldn't trust any "test results" that came back from that lab
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Old 08-22-07, 06:19 PM   #14
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im not an expert on the situation, and not to bring up old news, but didn't the B sample come back positive too? aside from saying the french lab mishandled the samples, there is not much the defense can say.....
Yes, but one of the worlds leading authorities on the testing and several others have stated that the results are unreliable due to testing faults. The initial tests are so full of procedural errors that it cannot be said with assurance that the samples are indeed Landis'. The more accurate mass spectrometry tests were done as a follow-up and were the ones that were botched the most. The machines were not even set up correctly. Further, the testing method is destructive and destroys the samples so they can't be redone.

WADA has basically gone the route of character assassination because they don't have any good reliable lab testing and documentation.
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Old 08-22-07, 06:38 PM   #15
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One interesting tidbit that comes out in Landis' book is that apparently no WADA lab tech or director can criticize the work of another WADA lab. So the most Landis' defense was able to get witnesses to say was that "we wouldn't have done it that way."
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Old 08-22-07, 09:52 PM   #16
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Yeah, the looooong time it's taking makes me smell something.

All the authorities had to do was present the test results and show the tests were run correctly by a certified lab and bada-bing bada-boom the tribunal deliberates for 3 minutes and Landis swings. Now it's like three months and...what?

I also didn't get the whole attack on Landis' character at the hearing - what difference did that make if the tests were A-OK?

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PS - Could they be waiting for Dick Pound to retire?
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Old 08-22-07, 09:59 PM   #17
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The most amazing testimony during the hearing was from the French tech. When she was asked why a certain phase of the testing took much longer than expected, she said in effect: "well, the machine is always giving bad answers...I knew the answers the machine was giving must be wrong, so I used pencil and paper to compute better answers..."

Later, when she was asked who the lab used to verify her work was done correctly, she said the lab selected HER to do the "B" sample to find out whether she had been correct when she did the "A" sample...she was in charge of "grading her own papers".

She could not explain how a French newsper got the results of the "A" sample test just three hours after she completed her work, even though she claimed she only discussed the result with the head of the lab.

If a jury had heard her testimony in a case involving $10 worth of cocaine, most of the jurors would have been laughing too hard to convict anyone.
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Old 08-22-07, 10:01 PM   #18
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Anybody know what Landis test results were the next day? Or does testosterone leave the body that quick?
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Old 08-22-07, 10:41 PM   #19
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Anybody know what Landis test results were the next day? Or does testosterone leave the body that quick?
I don't know that Floyd had a sample taken the following day. He wasn't wearing the yellow jersey until after the ITT, and he didn't win stage 18. LNDD did state that they found evidence of exogenous testosterone in all his other samples, but that doesn't carry a whole lot of weight as a factual statement with me.
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Old 08-22-07, 10:47 PM   #20
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Anybody know what Landis test results were the next day? Or does testosterone leave the body that quick?
He likely would not have been tested stage 18 as he was third overal behind Oscar and Carlos and well back of the breakaway so he wouldn't be tested for the stage. He would have been tested after stage 19 after he re-took the lead.

And yes, testosterone is metabolised quickly enough that if Floyd did use testosterone on stage 17 and those figures are correct, he was only about 40 minutes away from a negative test.
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Old 08-22-07, 10:51 PM   #21
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im not an expert on the situation, and not to bring up old news, but didn't the B sample come back positive too? aside from saying the french lab mishandled the samples, there is not much the defense can say.....
I would have much more confidence in the B sample if the same lab and the techs had not tested it. As such, I still think Landis' team provided enough doubt that it would be tough to find him guilty.
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Old 08-22-07, 10:57 PM   #22
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And didn't I see something that the TdF sent their samples to the Canadian lab this year?? Or was LNDD still doing it.
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Old 08-22-07, 11:00 PM   #23
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I would have much more confidence in the B sample if the same lab and the techs had not tested it. As such, I still think Landis' team provided enough doubt that it would be tough to find him guilty.
Based on the lab seems a flimsy case against Floyd.
Must say though, I'm wondering if maybe they weren't ready to find for Floyd but for the LeMond witness tampering incident. That incident doesn't look like the act of an innocent, so maybe they are pausing in the face of the flimsy physical evidence.
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Old 08-22-07, 11:02 PM   #24
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And didn't I see something that the TdF sent their samples to the Canadian lab this year?? Or was LNDD still doing it.
No-you are thinking of the French Open Tennis Tournament.

LNDD is still doing the Tour.
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Old 08-22-07, 11:23 PM   #25
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Based on the lab seems a flimsy case against Floyd.
Must say though, I'm wondering if maybe they weren't ready to find for Floyd but for the LeMond witness tampering incident. That incident doesn't look like the act of an innocent, so maybe they are pausing in the face of the flimsy physical evidence.
I always wondered why LeMond got himself looped into this. I mean I know there was the phone call back in July 06 and I like Greg, but as time goes by, he just seems to get more angry that other riders are getting more recognition and he just can't seem to handle that and tries to talk smack about them at any chance he can get. If they only look at the LeMond incident at the tribunal, then there are bigger problem within the WADA et al world that need to fixed.
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