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Old 10-04-07, 08:10 PM   #1
SunFlower
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What Does Marion Jones Mean for Landis or Lance ??

Once again an athlete has admitted using steroids despite testing negative numerous times. Marion Jones the olympic sprinter said she used steroids before the 2000 olympics where she won numerous medals and continued using them in world competitions where she tested negative a number of times. One test however came back positive but the back up test came back negative so she was declared clean.
There is a long list of athletes who test negative through out their career only to admitt using steroids later on.
The fact that the labs can be so wrong or inconclusive proves what ? Does it bolster Landis claim to be clean ? Does it call into question Lance Armstrongs clean test results ?
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Old 10-07-07, 11:22 PM   #2
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great

God I emmediatly thought the exact same thing when i head the replays of jones saying how shes had been tested many, many times and not one shows positive...... and now look at her. The first thing that came to my mind was Armstrong saying the exact same deal, ive been tested numerouse times and have not shown positive.... well now we know that does not mean squat. yea it may not have shown, but it does not mean you didnt dope. We all know how sad it would be to find that Armstrong did dope but youve got to be real. EVERYONE who contended against Armstrong had been caught, Basso, Ulle, Pantani, and now VINO? come on. These athleted are using top of the line doctors who know how to beat the system, it is extremely discouraging to aspiring athletes and maybe even tempting at the same time. It is not fair that cycling is taking the hits and hopefully this jones case will relive some of the pressure. I love the tdf and all other pro cycling races, it would just be nice to see an even playing feild and know that these achievements are being made by sheer human power. The Lance legacy is great, but the logic does not add up in his favor, good thing hes retired!!!
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Old 10-08-07, 04:25 AM   #3
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Originally Posted by SunFlower View Post
Once again an athlete has admitted using steroids despite testing negative numerous times. Marion Jones the olympic sprinter said she used steroids before the 2000 olympics where she won numerous medals and continued using them in world competitions where she tested negative a number of times. One test however came back positive but the back up test came back negative so she was declared clean.
There is a long list of athletes who test negative through out their career only to admitt using steroids later on.
The fact that the labs can be so wrong or inconclusive proves what ? Does it bolster Landis claim to be clean ? Does it call into question Lance Armstrongs clean test results ?
The analogy Jones brings to mind is that Ekaterini Thanou may get the gold from Sydney she missed in Athens due her missed doping/scooter accident, just as Riis admission may move up Ullrich to the podium top for 96 with Virenque moving up another step to runnerup.
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Old 10-08-07, 05:02 AM   #4
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Drug testing

My wife has done drug testing for the past 20 years. At one time the lab where she she worked was one of five in the world certified to test Olympic athletes. She went to the Atlanta Olympics in 1996 to work in the labs testing there.

The tests include Gas Chromatography Mass Spectrometry (GC/MS). It reads the chemical composition of the sample against a "standard". They are testing for metabolites of specific drugs. They cannot test all, new or unknown drugs. This is where the misconception comes that the tests are wrong.

Cheaters and their trainers are constantly looking for drugs that has not been identified, specifically outlawed or tested. They are trying to operate "under the radar". As time passes the labs develop new tests and standards and the athletes get caught.

As I understand Jones was using a previously unknown steroid called "the Clear". (Presumably because they tested "clear" when they took it.) A sample of the drug was supplied to the Olympic Committee (by Jones trainer? I'm unclear on this.) and testing was established. This painted her into the corner.
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Old 10-08-07, 09:43 PM   #5
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Apparently she gave up her medals from the 2000 Olympics.

Sadly, the woman who came in second in one of the events was banned a year or two later for drugs (not sure if it was a positive test or a missed test) but may still get the medal.

Such a dirty business.
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Old 10-09-07, 01:46 AM   #6
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Apparently she gave up her medals from the 2000 Olympics.

Sadly, the woman who came in second in one of the events was banned a year or two later for drugs (not sure if it was a positive test or a missed test) but may still get the medal.

Such a dirty business.
Ekaterini Thanou as well as her training partner, a male Sydney gold medalist, was banned 4 years later for the missed tests on the eve of the Athens Olympics.
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Old 10-10-07, 10:03 AM   #7
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well, if there is no test for the substance and/or the substance has not been banned, then taking it is not really cheating is it?
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Old 10-10-07, 04:12 PM   #8
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well, if there is no test for the substance and/or the substance has not been banned, then taking it is not really cheating is it?
That's the "Thin Line" you always hear about... hehe! But if it's not illegal at that time then you can't really say they took illegal substances.

So, for instance, if Lance took The Clear but as soon as it was banned he stopped. Would you consider him a cheat, even though it wasn't "illegal" and he stopped as soon as it was on the banned list?
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Old 10-10-07, 04:41 PM   #9
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Lance Armstrong, surgery and potential to improve your cyling potential (men only)

With all the speculation on Mr. Armstrong, perhaps this gives both an alternative explaination for his perfomance AND gives other really serious male cyclists an alternative to performance enhancing drugs ...

Med Hypotheses. 2007;68(4):735-49. Epub 2006 Nov 13.

Metabolic clues regarding the enhanced performance of elite endurance athletes
from orchiectomy-induced hormonal changes.


Atwood CS, Bowen RL.

Section of Geriatrics and Gerontology, Department of Medicine, University of
Wisconsin-Madison and Geriatric Research, Education and Clinical Center, Veterans
Administration Hospital, Madison, WI 53705, USA. csa@medicine.wisc.edu
<csa@medicine.wisc.edu>

This article examines the metabolic performance of an elite cyclist, Lance
Armstrong, before and after his diagnosis with testicular cancer. Although a
champion cyclist in 1-day events prior to his diagnosis of testicular cancer at
age 25, he was not a contender in multi-day endurance cycle races such as the
3-week Tour de France. His genetic makeup and physiology (high VO2max, long
femur, strong heavy build) coupled with his ambition and motivation enabled him
at an early age to become one of the best 1-day cyclists in the world. Following
his cancer diagnosis, he underwent a unilateral orchiectomy, brain surgery and
four cycles of chemotherapy. After recovering, he returned to cycling and
surprisingly excelled in the Tour de France, winning this hardest of endurance
events 7 years running. This dramatic transformation from a 1-day to a 3-week
endurance champion has led many to query how this is possible, and under the
current climate, has led to suggestions of doping as to the answer to this
metamorphosis. Physiological tests following his recovery indicated that
physiological parameters such as VO2max were not affected by the unilateral
orchiectomy and chemotherapy. We propose that his dramatic improvement in
recovery between stages, the most important factor in winning multi-day stage
races, is due to his unilateral orchiectomy, a procedure that results in
permanent changes in serum hormones. These hormonal changes, specifically an
increase in gonadotropins (and prolactin) required to maintain serum testosterone
levels, alter fuel metabolism; increasing hormone sensitive lipase expression and
activity, promoting increased free fatty acid (FFA) mobilization to, and
utilization by, muscles, thereby decreasing the requirement to expend limiting
glycogen stores before, during and after exercise. Such hormonal changes also
have been associated with ketone body production, improvements in muscle repair
and haematocrit levels and may facilitate the loss of body weight, thereby
increasing power to weight ratio. Taken together, these hormonal changes act to
limit glycogen utilization, delay fatigue and enhance recovery thereby allowing
for optimal performances on a day-to-day basis. These insights provide the
foundation for future studies on the endocrinology of exercise metabolism, and
suggest that Lance Armstrong's athletic advantage was not due to drug use.

PMID: 17095167 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
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Old 10-14-07, 05:11 PM   #10
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Not to defend Lance, but I recall that he had the highest VO2 max ever measured by a particular sports medicine clinic and that he also has naturally abnormall low lactic acid production. Maybe, like Secretariat who had a grossly overlarge heart, Lance is just a freak of nature that comes along once in a 100 years. At least that's a comforting thought.
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Old 10-14-07, 09:04 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by skanking biker View Post
well, if there is no test for the substance and/or the substance has not been banned, then taking it is not really cheating is it?
My wife devised a test and actually caught a Russian athlete at the 96 Olympics taking a bronchial dilator, which wasn't actually banned. They took away his Gold...for three days, he protested and was reinstated.

But the drug was immediately added to the banned list.
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Old 10-28-07, 03:31 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by Oroluk Lagoon View Post
Not to defend Lance, but I recall that he had the highest VO2 max ever measured by a particular sports medicine clinic and that he also has naturally abnormall low lactic acid production. Maybe, like Secretariat who had a grossly overlarge heart, Lance is just a freak of nature that comes along once in a 100 years. At least that's a comforting thought.
This is what I want to believe. He was also a very smart rider and had a very good, disciplined team to back him up. Lance was a good time trialer who would have a couple of good days in the mountains and few mistakes later. This strategy worked well for Anqueteil and Indurain. Lance's training was better than what Jan was doing.
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Old 10-28-07, 03:54 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by Gee3 View Post
That's the "Thin Line" you always hear about... hehe! But if it's not illegal at that time then you can't really say they took illegal substances.

So, for instance, if Lance took The Clear but as soon as it was banned he stopped. Would you consider him a cheat, even though it wasn't "illegal" and he stopped as soon as it was on the banned list?

No, if it's not on the list, then it's okay to use it. That's the line in the sand. It is not currently illegal to eat peanut butter and jelly sandwiches or take Black Cohosh. Of course, the officials will immediately investigate why an athlete feels the need to take a drug or supplement for menopause and then discover it's an excellent masking agent. Then it'll go on the list of banned substances and the athletes will have to find another way to cheat.

Cat + Mouse = Game = Cat + Mouse = Game..................
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Old 10-28-07, 04:25 PM   #14
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No, if it's not on the list, then it's okay to use it.
That is not correct. WADA defines classes of banned substances and methods in addition to a list of prohibited substances.
For example, http://www.uci.ch/Modules/BUILTIN/ge...FILE&id=34172&

"M1. ENHANCEMENT OF OXYGEN TRANSFER

"The following are prohibited:

"1. Blood doping, including the use of autologous, homologous or heterologous
blood or red blood cell products of any origin.

"2. Artificially enhancing the uptake, transport or delivery of oxygen, including
but not limited to perfluorochemicals, efaproxiral (RSR13) and modified
haemoglobin products (e.g. haemoglobin-based blood substitutes,
microencapsulated haemoglobin products)."

or relative to masking agents,
"S5. DIURETICS AND OTHER MASKING AGENTS

Masking agents are prohibited. They include: ..."
Note the section lists included substances but does not limit the exclusion to only listed compounds.
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