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  1. #251
    Elitist Troglodyte DMF's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by reef58
    This excuse is over the top. Maybe he is innocent, but come on 6 drinks, and stage 17 in front of you, and you are already dehydrated.
    Did you maybe notice that he went through 70 water bottles just during the race? Water is a known antidote for dehydration.
    Stupidity got us into this mess - why can't it get us out?

    - Will Rogers

  2. #252
    Elitist Troglodyte DMF's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EURO
    This is a sporting regulation, not a law. You cannot have cases that set precident and give the possibility of new regulations to be written.

    All a sport is is a system of regulations. As soon as you contest one regulation, you devalue the whole sport.
    We have to distinguish regulations that embody the nature of the sport - call them "primary regulations" - from those that don't ("secondary"). For instance, the handball rules in futbol express the nature of the game. To say that a handball is okay in certain circumstances does change (I dunno about "devalue" ) the sport. Likewise the regulation prohibiting cyclists doping. Anyone that contends that it's okay to use PEDs is trying to change the nature of the sport, and I oppose that just like you do. The corollary is that clean riders may participate. That's the nature of the sport.

    But you can't extend the same logic to secondary regulations such as the specific details of how a primary regulation is implemented. For instance, say that the baseline official has authority in ruling on charging calls in basketball. Now we change it so that the backcourt official has that responsibility. Has the nature of the game changed? Not at all. Charging is still illegal and will be penalized.

    Same with the doping test rules; they are secondary regulations. A test *may* indicate that a rider doped. But since a bad test would disqualify a clean rider - also violating the nature of the sport - you can't stop there and say, "Well, he failed the test so that's all we need to know". You have to examine the possibility that the test itself may indicate something other than doping. That's why there are judgement calls in sport. E.g. consider the job of the futbol referee.
    Stupidity got us into this mess - why can't it get us out?

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  3. #253
    Senior Member Karlotta's Avatar
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    Interesting details from Don Catlin (UCLA Anti-Doping expert), published in an article in the San Diego paper (available online at: http://www.signonsandiego.com/sports...s29landis.html)

    But a bigger issue for Landis figures to be another, less publicized test that has quietly gained legitimacy in recent years. It is called a carbon isotope ratio, or CIR, and it differentiates between testosterone produced naturally inside the body and pharmaceutical testosterone introduced externally.

    “It's a wonderful tool,” said Catlin, the UCLA scientist who was instrumental in developing it. “We've never known it to be wrong. We use it all the time now. If you have a high t/e ratio in our lab, we do a carbon isotope ratio right away. We don't report a high t/e ratio without a carbon isotope test.”

    Therein, perhaps, lies the greatest obstacle for Landis.

    The Paris lab conducting tests from the Tour de France is accredited by the World Anti-Doping Agency, and WADA protocol calls for a CIR if a urine test shows an elevated t/e ratio. It also recommends that an athlete's t/e ratios from previous drug tests be examined to determine if the elevated t/e ratio is an abnormality.

    The idea is that a doping case is not initiated against an athlete without at least two and ideally all three of these elements.

    The International Cycling Union (UCI) did not reveal details of the preliminary lab results, and Phonak, Landis' Swiss-based team, said only that UCI notified it of “an unusual level of testosterone/epitestosterone.” But there were reports in France that the Paris lab had indeed conducted a CIR and that it was positive, and Catlin said he'd be surprised if the lab didn't perform one.

    “They are a WADA-accredited lab and they follow WADA protocol,” Catlin said. “I think it's a very safe assumption – very safe. Why would they risk not doing that? I mean, good grief, you'd think they are going to have all their ducks in order for a case like this.”

    And if those three elements all point to illicit use of testosterone?

    “You are not going to lose the (doping) case, period,” Catlin said.

  4. #254
    In Transition fruitless's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Karlotta
    Interesting details from Don Catlin (UCLA Anti-Doping expert), published in an article in the San Diego paper (available online at: http://www.signonsandiego.com/sports...s29landis.html)
    This is the first genuine news I have heard on this topic in 3 days. Now I have to dig into WADA protocols. I think my understanding of these doping issues is that there is nothing like a discovery procedure over evidence so that in affect the rider in question is put in the position of making defensive arguments that may do more harm than good. It sounds like a CIR test would identify an actual introduced adulterant but I can't believe that if such a test was conducted it would not have been mentioned by now?

  5. #255
    Senior Member Karlotta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fruitless
    This is the first genuine news I have heard on this topic in 3 days. Now I have to dig into WADA protocols. I think my understanding of these doping issues is that there is nothing like a discovery procedure over evidence so that in affect the rider in question is put in the position of making defensive arguments that may do more harm than good. It sounds like a CIR test would identify an actual introduced adulterant but I can't believe that if such a test was conducted it would not have been mentioned by now?
    The article states that it had been reported in the media in France. And I've seen it posted here somewhere. As to why it hasn't been leaked, well perhaps Phonak/Landis do know that it is positive, and they want to gloss over this detail to skip to the endocrinologic tests? Or perhaps the test was negative, and the lab didn't report it to Landis/Phonak... pick your conspiracy theory...

    I did read one statement that an Italian UCI official had made.... he said "For us the Sample A is good enough" or something very similar. Wish I could find that quote.

    Guess we'll all be waiting til Monday evening (Paris time) to find out more.

  6. #256
    Elitist Troglodyte DMF's Avatar
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    We're all waiting for the isotope marker test. If it had been done, surely UCI would have announced it since it is (reportedly) a definitive test.

    I have a fin that says it comes back negative.
    Stupidity got us into this mess - why can't it get us out?

    - Will Rogers

  7. #257
    Senior Member Karlotta's Avatar
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    Apparently Don Catlin disagrees with you... perhaps you could bet him.

  8. #258
    Senior Member Karlotta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DMF
    We're all waiting for the isotope marker test. If it had been done, surely UCI would have announced it since it is (reportedly) a definitive test.
    UCI only announced one thing at all... that there was an "adverse analytical finding"... they didn't report the results of any test yet ... they won't until the B sample (counter analysis) is complete. They may however have told Landis and Phonak about it already. We'll see.

  9. #259
    Elitist Troglodyte DMF's Avatar
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    He (Catlin) doesn't say that it has been done. He isn't in a position to know. He says that it *should* be done.

    The author of the article (not Catlin) reports that there are rumors, but nothing more than that.
    Stupidity got us into this mess - why can't it get us out?

    - Will Rogers

  10. #260
    Senior Member Karlotta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DMF
    He (Catlin) doesn't say that it has been done. He isn't in a position to know. He says that it *should* be done.

    The author of the article (not Catlin) reports that there are rumors, but nothing more than that.
    He (Catlin) said if they were following procedure it would have been done. And that it's a safe assumption "very safe" that the CIR was done. Yes, he is speculating. But he is an expert; he took part in the development of the test... and he (Catlin) is way more familiar with WADA protocol than you or I... they are much more than rumors. They are the educated opinion of an expert in the field.

    As I wrote, we'll see.

  11. #261
    Senior Member reef58's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DMF
    Did you maybe notice that he went through 70 water bottles just during the race? Water is a known antidote for dehydration.
    Yea but if you are dehydrated in the middle of the biggest stage race on your life would you then do something like drinking alcohol to dehydrate yourself further?

    Richard

  12. #262
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    Quote Originally Posted by reef58
    Yea but if you are dehydrated in the middle of the biggest stage race on your life would you then do something like drinking alcohol to dehydrate yourself further?

    Richard
    If I had a day like he did, you bet I would.

  13. #263
    Senior Member
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    Even if he is innocent of "doping", should he be allowed to compete with other riders? What I mean is, if he does make more testosterone than other people, isn't that an unfair advantage? Weren't there some Russian swimmers or weight lifters a few years ago that had their medals taken away and banned from sport because the had an extra sex chromosome? At what point does sport allow or not allow an athlete to compete if they have an advantage because of something nature gave them? Just as people with whatever physical anomaly that prevents them from being able to compete with others without anomalies.
    Just something we were talking about today.

  14. #264
    Senior Member swifferman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Piuma
    If not for the Visigoths this forum would be in Latin.

    HAHAHHAHAHAH

    lol

    egads im late on the laughter but I loled for real

  15. #265
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    Quote Originally Posted by smellygary
    Even if he is innocent of "doping", should he be allowed to compete with other riders? What I mean is, if he does make more testosterone than other people, isn't that an unfair advantage? Weren't there some Russian swimmers or weight lifters a few years ago that had their medals taken away and banned from sport because the had an extra sex chromosome? At what point does sport allow or not allow an athlete to compete if they have an advantage because of something nature gave them? Just as people with whatever physical anomaly that prevents them from being able to compete with others without anomalies.
    Just something we were talking about today.
    Can someone 8'7" play in the NBA?

  16. #266
    Senior Member reef58's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DMF
    That doesn't make any sense at all.
    Please explain how this makes no sense. Actually your response make no sense. If Floyd has naturally occurring high levels of testosterone wouldn't it be reasonable that he would have failed a prior test? I would think his test should be realative to one another whether they be high or low.

    Of course it could be a lab error with the A sample. Maybe the lab screwed up. I am sure it would not be the first time. I am anxious to get the see the B sample results.

    Richard

  17. #267
    Tandem Vincitur Ritterview's Avatar
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    The San Jose Mercury (http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercurynews/15151628.htm ) reports that:

    The French newspaper L'Equipe reported Friday that an isotope analysis showed the presence of artificial testosterone in Landis' urine. The cyclist said he hadn't heard about the report.

    L'Equipe : http://www.lequipe.fr/home.html I couldn't find the article, maybe someone who can read French can find it, and do a Babelfish translation for us.

    If the CIR is positive: “You are not going to lose the (doping) case, period,” Catlin said.


    (1) It is likely that the CIR was done, and was positive.
    (2) It is likely that the reported 11:1 ratio is true.
    (3) It is almost certain that the B Sample will have the same result as the A Sample.
    (4) The CIR is recently developed, and riders will no longer be getting off with far-fetched exuses.

    I would say that at this point, Floyd's chances for getting out of this are worse than his chances of winning the Tour after Stage 16.

  18. #268
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    If you "Google" around, you will find many interviews with Dr. Catlin from the past few years. If you read ALL of the interviews, you learn that Dr. Catlin has great confidence in the CIR analysis, which can tell the difference between natural testosterone (regardless of the T/E ratio) and a T/E ratio that is the result of doping.

    Dr. Catlin points out something that ought to be common knowledge for any high school graduate: a highly complex and sophisticated test, such as the CIR, requires highly trained, highly skilled, and carefully supervised lab personnel. There are many, many steps, and the complete analysis takes hours to carefully work through, step by step.

    In those respects, it is similar in sophistication to the DNA tests done by police crime labs. A review of the Houston police crime lab found the lab failed to fully follow correct procedures in 20% or 30% of their DNA tests. Usually, the police had arrested the correct person, and any problems in the lab had no impact on the case. In a number of cases, innocent men went to prison as a result of faulty lab work.

    This French lab was the recent subject of a scathing report, which cleared Lance Armstrong of the doping charges, after that lab illegally gave the results of testing on "anonymous" six year old urine samples to L'Equipe. That report made clear that the staff of the lab had violated numerous WADA standards, UCI standards, and legal standards, and that the results in the Armstrong case could not be relied upon.

    And there are members of this Forum who are gonna convict Floyd Landis based on THIS lab's work?

  19. #269
    Senior Member yellowjeep's Avatar
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    Ok for once I am going to agree with ABH on something, I'm pretty sure I was the first one to bring up L'Equipe reporting that they had already done a CIR. And I still haven't seen anything independently saying that they have. All I have read is other sources reporting on what L'Equipe has said. I am also skeptical of this French lab, but I still think that bikes form Asia are ok.

  20. #270
    Senior Member Karlotta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by alanbikehouston

    This French lab was the recent subject of a scathing report, which cleared Lance Armstrong of the doping charges, after that lab illegally gave the results of testing on "anonymous" six year old urine samples to L'Equipe. That report made clear that the staff of the lab had violated numerous WADA standards, UCI standards, and legal standards, and that the results in the Armstrong case could not be relied upon.

    And there are members of this Forum who are gonna convict Floyd Landis based on THIS lab's work?
    Yes. The scathing report to which you refer was written by a hired *** on behalf of UCI in order to discredit WADA and the LNDD. The LNDD is a WADA-accredited institute, and I am sure they're handling this case with kid gloves and dotting all the i's, and crossing all the t's.

    Smear tactics against the French and the LNDD are simply a red herring designed to distract from the real matter... the testing of Landis.

    BTW, when Heras tested positive for EPO in the Vuelta, the Spanish federation actually had the B tests done at three labs... one of which was the LNDD.

  21. #271
    Senior Member Karlotta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ritterview
    L'Equipe : http://www.lequipe.fr/home.html I couldn't find the article, maybe someone who can read French can find it, and do a Babelfish translation for us.
    .
    I looked too. I lived in France for three years and speak the language. I think it must be in the print version... the web site doesn't have everything ... I'm almost tempted to pay the 1 euro to get the PDF of the print version, which L'equipe sells online...

  22. #272
    Gitchur SUV Away From Me
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    The news media is ready to convict Landis if the B sample comes back positive. What they and many others overlook is the fact that of all the doping controls, the testosterone test has the highest rate of false positives even with A and B both showing positive.

  23. #273
    My toilet-Floyd's future
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    And there are members of this Forum who are gonna convict Floyd Landis based on THIS lab's work?
    It's not our job to 'convict' Landis. It's the UCI's. By being a fan of pro cycling (a sport CREATED by the UCI) - you have to accept these tests.

    Not accepting a UCI accredited test, is the same as not accepting a UCI accredited race result.

    If you hate the UCI so much, then I'd suggest you stop paying attention to UCI events, and stop worshiping the riders that take part in them.

  24. #274
    Senior Member Karlotta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JamesV
    The news media is ready to convict Landis if the B sample comes back positive. What they and many others overlook is the fact that of all the doping controls, the testosterone test has the highest rate of false positives even with A and B both showing positive.
    However, if they have performed the Carbon Isotope Ratio test, and it seems likely that they have already, or will have with the B-sample, that this will indicate that there is exogenous testosterone in his system. IE... stuff that came from a source outside his body.

  25. #275
    just keep riding BluesDawg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Karlotta
    However, if they have performed the Carbon Isotope Ratio test, and it seems likely that they have already, or will have with the B-sample, that this will indicate that there is exogenous testosterone in his system. IE... stuff that came from a source outside his body.

    You are assuming the result. But I agree that the results of the additional tests will answer, one way or the other, whether the testosterone in the sample is natural or from an external source.
    The more you ride your bike, the less your ass will hurt.

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