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  1. #76
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    This anti-French / conspiracy slant of many people on BF (and many Americans in general) is ridiculous.
    They're just repeating what Karl Rove told Fox News to tell them to say.

  2. #77
    Peloton Dog patentcad's Avatar
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    It would appear that before pro sports gets a handle on 'doping' they need tests that are beyond question. There are so many questions about some of these tests - it would be comical if it wasn't so tragic. Add to that this incredible European tendency to assume guilt prior to any kind of hearing or trial (something that doesn't seem to be tolerated in the US nearly as much if at all) - and you have the kangaroo court by media that is pro cycling's clean-up effort. And what it appears to be doing is WRECKING the image of the sport more than anything else.

    Great job UCI. I know you're trying. Try harder. Better yet, try smarter. But don't ask me how you'd accomplish that. You could start by not making this appear to be a witch hunt. So far this month they've burned most of the top riders in the sport @ the stake, eh? Brilliant. And cycling looks more polluted than ever. Who's running this friggin airline? And all without so much as a hearing. More like 'put her in the water, and if she sinks, she's a WITCH!'

    Oh yeah, anybody watching the Tour de France next year? I'm switching to Pro Rodeo instead. At least you can kick the bullsiht there.

  3. #78
    Senior Member ravenmore's Avatar
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    Yeah - I don't get it. I used to be a gym rat and knew guys that were taking steriods including testosterone. It was always done in cycles. Not a single day. There was no benefit I was aware of for a single dose. He did not test positive at any other point, just this one day. That is weird. Really weird.

    Someone told me that the lab involved is the same lab that is somehow affiliated with L'Equipe and the owners of the Tour. Aren't these the same guys involved in suddenly turning up a positive EPO sample for one of Lance's samples from '99 6 years after the fact?

    I'm kind of wondering if it is possible someone would've been able to slip Landis something that'd test positive - now I'm getting paranoid I guess. But a one day positive for testosterone of all things just doesn't make sense.

  4. #79
    Senior Member Pico's Avatar
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    Have the actual test results been released? I'm curious if the ratio was close to the limit or well beyond. Also, what's the accuracy and precision of the two tests involved? If his testosterone was actually low then his epitestosterone must be quite low so the accuracy of the test could be an issue.

  5. #80
    Peloton Dog patentcad's Avatar
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    So far on this thread the retorts to my point that elevated testosterone is relatively rare have consisted of:

    • Cited instance of positive tests - so far 2 or 3 of them over a couple of decades. But wait - that actually SUPPORTS my original point. Riders use EPO and blood doping, not steroids.

    My guess is that EPO positives outnumber those 100 or more to 1. Add to that the bizarre scenario of multiple negative tests surrounding the positive one. Wait, wouldn't steroid use have resulted in more than a positive result for Stage 17? Does this make sense to anyone? Does anyone really buy this as presented? It has more holes than Bob Roll's socks. If you can make this sound more logical to us, please, I'm all ears. I have an open mind. Which is why after pondering this all day and reading lots of material about this, it's simply getting harder to reconcile all the time.

    If you're going to damn a rider on a test that isn't exactly a smoking gun in the first place, then do it more convincingly than that.

    This story isn't over yet weenies. Not by a long shot.

    One more point: let me go on the record by saying that I find it impossible to believe this is some French anti-American rider thing. But you do have to wonder WHAT happened here, and WHY?

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    Senior Member barba's Avatar
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    The fact that anyone really is surprised when top level atheltes get caught doping is a little funny.

  7. #82
    Peloton Dog patentcad's Avatar
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    What's 'sabatoge'? Is that the trailer park spelling of 'sabotage'?

    If you're going to bash the French, TRY not to sound like a numbskull Le American. That would help.

    I think the pronounciation in this case is SAB OH TOH GEE.

  8. #83
    Senior Member Pico's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by patentcad
    One more point: let me go on the record by saying that I find it impossible to believe this is some French anti-American rider thing. But you do have to wonder WHAT happened here, and WHY?
    I second that, this is not an act of French sabatoge.

    I think it's most likely:
    1) Floyd actually did dope
    2) The test on the A sample was bungled
    3) Floyd has high testosterone and/or he did something that lowered his epitestosterone. Could some combination of drinking a lot water, consuming alcohol, very heavy excersize, and the medication for his hip corrupt the results?

  9. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enthalpic
    He tested positive only on one day... this has no relation to how many times he used it. You guys have to abandon this "testing negative means I never used" theory.

    As for tests use in cycling; of course it works. Look at the difference between the top men and women cyclists and think for yourself.
    bingo, these tests are based in limits, you come in under a limit of x and your ok, however x will likely be above the natural level most people have

    hemacrit is a perfect example, the limit is 50, most people are well under 50, funny how many tour riders show up at 49-49.9, the other drugs are the same way

    these guys have been using testosterone patches and micro doses of EPO, been going on for quite sometime, those that have pushed things too far have been busted, those that have been very good at controlling things get away with it

    this tour was interesting because I think we saw quite a few guys stop using all of a sudden and we had an enormous amount of inconsistent rider performances, the drugs dont add that much in the way of performance on the road, but they make a huge difference in recovery times---a few of these stages saw guys riding solo or almost solo for some damn long distances at LT the whole way, you dont do that and then do it again the next day without help

    We saw some guys ride into shape too, look at David Millar for example, check his post race interviews as the race progressed. Saw some guys look like sheot and turned it around too, Leipheimer, Sastre, etc Lots of inconsistencies, heck look at Iban Mayo !! dude must have been seriously juicing then got that cold and it was all over with--being on the razor is challenging enough even without having to program your drug usage so carefully

  10. #85
    Plano, TX saintboy8's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by girlyman
    According to what I've heard his testosterone levels were not abnomally high. In fact he had reetively low levels. What was out of whack was the ratio of testosterone to another hormone (can't rememberthe name. Something like estrogen). A guy on ESPN said he had abnormally low levels of this other hormone. His ratio was 11:1. Based on what that guy was saying it doesn't sound like doping.
    This is correct. Floyd was not found with additional amounts of testostorone in his bloodstream, he was found with an out of whack ratio of testosterone to epitestoserone. Read:

    Epitestosterone
    Epitestosterone is a biological form of testosterone that does not enhance performance. Drug tests for testosterone typically measure the ratio of testosterone to epitestosterone (T/E ratio). An athlete can inject epitestosterone, lower the T/E ratio and hide the use of testosterone. By itself, epitestosterone has no real harmful side effects.

    It is possible the cortizone shot was to blame or the beer he had, in which case I want to know what it was, or the hypothyroid meds he was taking. I too want to believe Floyd is innocent and I will continue to do so until someone has a definitive answer. INNOCENT UNTIL PROVEN GUILTY!!!!
    Last edited by saintboy8; 07-27-06 at 09:59 PM.
    Laissez le bons temps rouler! Geaux Tigers!

  11. #86
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    One of the things that will cause your testosterone:epitestosterone to be out of whack is dehydration.

    Remember all those bottles of water Landis was pouring on his head during his incredible climb??? It was at the suggestion of his coach to minimize sweating because the day before during his dismal performance he'd become pretty dehydrated.
    "There is no greater wonder than the way the face and character of a woman fit so perfectly in a man's mind, and stay there, and he could never tell you why. It just seems it was the thing he most wanted." Robert Louis Stevenson

  12. #87
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    Booze, not testosterone, Phueled Floyd

    from Wall Street Journal, Friday:
    (From THE WALL STREET JOURNAL)
    By Sam Walker
    THE DISCLOSURE that American Tour de France champion Floyd Landis failed a drug test administered after his triumphant ride in Stage 17 last week has cast more dark clouds over a sport that has already been shaken by allegations of doping.
    But in an interview yesterday, Mr. Landis, who has been suspended and could be stripped of his Tour title, denied using any illegal substances during the race and offered some surprising insights into his preparation for Stage 17. His performance on that race leg has been widely hailed as one of the greatest in the history of the Tour.
    The night before Stage 17, Mr. Landis said, while gathered with friends and teammates, he prepared for the strenuous mountain stage by drinking two beers and at least four shots of whiskey.
    The revelation that Mr. Landis was drinking the night before the test could be significant. According to several studies, alcohol consumption can increase the ratio between testosterone and epitestosterone, which occur naturally in the body. Mr. Landis failed the test because it showed an elevated ratio between the two.
    According to Mr. Landis, the drinks weren't part of his usual training. "I don't ordinarily ever drink alcohol during a race," he said yesterday. But earlier that day, during Stage 16, Mr. Landis had faded in the Alps, surrendering the leader's yellow jersey and falling more than eight minutes behind. Afterward, he was all but convinced that the race was over for him. "What would you have done?" he asked. "Until yesterday, that was the worst day of my life."
    Mr. Landis said he hasn't seen the test results, but people close to his Phonak cycling team said the ratio of testosterone to epitestosterone in his urine sample was 11 to 1, above the acceptable threshold of 4 to 1. Studies, including one conducted in 1996 at the National Public Health Institute in Helsinki, Finland, and one in 1988 at Huddinge Hospital in Stockholm, Sweden, indicate alcohol consumption can raise this ratio. Some researchers say the increase can be anywhere from 30% to more than 200%. Mr. Landis said he wasn't familiar with the research until he was told of it yesterday.
    Last week, after he completed Stage 16, Mr. Landis told reporters his first priority was to have a cold beer. He said yesterday he went to an outdoor veranda with a bar near his hotel and drank two draft beers. After a crowd began to gather, he retired to the hotel with about five other people, including Phonak teammates Axel Merckx and Robert Hunter. Someone produced a bottle of Jack Daniel's, he said, and he had "at least four shots" before going to bed before 11:30 p.m. Because he doesn't usually drink much and was so skinny from weeks of racing, the alcohol definitely had an effect, he said yesterday. "I don't remember much." Nonetheless, Mr. Landis said, he felt no ill effects the next morning because of the "adrenaline and energy" of the Tour.
    Mr. Landis said he will request today that officials examine the second of the two samples he provided to ensure that the first result wasn't flawed. The Phonak team said in a statement that if the second sample tests positive, Mr. Landis will be dismissed from the team. International Cycling Union President Pat McQuaid said in a statement that if the initial finding is confirmed, it would be "a great disappointment and an unacceptable violation."
    A representative for Phonak, the Swiss hearing-aid maker that sponsors Mr. Landis's cycling team, didn't return a call for comment. In the weeks ahead, Mr. Landis said, he will begin what he expects to be a long, hard process of defending himself. "People have a preconceived idea of what goes on in cycling," he said. "I can say I'm innocent, which I should say because I am, but people are going to believe whatever they believe."
    Several of Mr. Landis's former teammates have come to his defense. Jonathan Vaughters, a Tour de France veteran, said he spoke to Mr. Landis yesterday and believes the testing system has failed. Mr. Vaughters said any number of factors, from Mr. Landis's alcohol consumption, to the regular cortisone shots he was receiving for his injured hip, to his exhaustion from the stage before must have contributed to the "perfect storm" that caused the positive test. He noted that Mr. Landis had taken several tests during the Tour as a leader and stage winner and passed them.
    "The Tour de France is finally cleaned up," Mr. Vaughters said. "Floyd won a clean race and now he's going to get hosed. It's just really unjust."
    Gary Wadler, a physician and a member of the World Anti-Doping Agency, said he doesn't think the test results add up because Mr. Landis didn't show an elevated ratio in any other tests. "I can't imagine how taking a single dose of an anabolioc steroid could impact performance in the sport of cycling," he said. "They need to be taken for many weeks to have an effect."
    Even if Mr. Landis is eventually cleared, it's unlikely drinking before races will become a strategy adopted by other endurance athletes. "No one wants to go through what Floyd is going through now," Allen Lim, one of Mr. Landis's coaches, wrote in an email yesterday.

    -0-

  13. #88
    Member grkeller's Avatar
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  14. #89
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    Can someone explain this to me?

    Can someone explain this to me? When and how often do they riders for drugs?

    The reason I ask is this does not make sense to me. Anyone who has taken or knows about steroids knows you do not get an immediate strength increase. So even if they shot Landis with a full gram of testosterone (that is a lot), he would reap no benefit from it the next day. You do not become superman over night. So why would he be clean and then on the last part of the tour take a huge dose and know he would be caught?

    OK, maybe I am in denial. Any thoughts?
    Last edited by Univega; 07-28-06 at 03:36 AM.

  15. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by Univega
    Can someone explain this to me? When and how often do they riders for drugs?
    The reason I ask is this does not make sense to me. Anyone who has taken or knows about steroids knows you do not get an immediate strength increase. So even if they shot Landis with a full gram of testosterone (that is a lot), he would rep no benefit from it the next day. You do not become superman over night. So why would he be clean and then on the last part of the tour take a huge dose and know he would be caught?

    OK, maybe I am in denial. Any thoughts?
    I'm with you on that. Maybe it's a French conspiracy. They are still smarting from the beating Lance gave them over being exhonorated from doping. I think they hate us Americans so much they would do anything to taint our victories.

    Remember, in the last 20 years, Americans have won 11 of 20 Tours. To me that is complete and total domination. How many have the French won?

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  16. #91
    Portland, OR, USA pdxtex's Avatar
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    i don't know why this is such a big deal to me. its not like its going to affect my riding or love of cycling, but as a fan, i will definitely feel let down if landis is proven to be a cheat. i really don't think he did it though and am feverishly waiting the results of his B test. overall though, i say hats off to serhei honchar for kicking some ass this month.

  17. #92
    Portland, OR, USA pdxtex's Avatar
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    i read somewhere that the lab that ran the test was affiliated with l'equipe as well. hmmmmmm.

  18. #93
    Portland, OR, USA pdxtex's Avatar
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    Drug testing TDF riders

    So how does this work? Are random riders, randomly tested, or are they screened prior to the race and then individually tested later on during the Tour? Was Landis randomly tested after stage 17 or was he asked to submit some pee on purpose? Insight?

  19. #94
    Member grkeller's Avatar
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    the beer and whisky he had after La Toussuire may have thrown off the test:
    (from Friday's Wall Street Journal)
    (From THE WALL STREET JOURNAL)
    · By Sam Walker
    ·
    · THE DISCLOSURE that American Tour de France champion Floyd Landis failed a
    ·drug test administered after his triumphant ride in Stage 17 last week has cast
    ·more dark clouds over a sport that has already been shaken by allegations of
    ·doping.
    ·
    · But in an interview yesterday, Mr. Landis, who has been suspended and could
    ·be stripped of his Tour title, denied using any illegal substances during the
    ·race and offered some surprising insights into his preparation for Stage 17. His
    ·performance on that race leg has been widely hailed as one of the greatest in
    ·the history of the Tour.
    ·
    · The night before Stage 17, Mr. Landis said, while gathered with friends and
    ·teammates, he prepared for the strenuous mountain stage by drinking two beers
    ·and at least four shots of whiskey.
    ·
    · The revelation that Mr. Landis was drinking the night before the test could
    ·be significant. According to several studies, alcohol consumption can increase
    ·the ratio between testosterone and epitestosterone, which occur naturally in the
    ·body. Mr. Landis failed the test because it showed an elevated ratio between the
    ·two.
    ·
    · According to Mr. Landis, the drinks weren't part of his usual training. "I
    ·don't ordinarily ever drink alcohol during a race," he said yesterday. But
    ·earlier that day, during Stage 16, Mr. Landis had faded in the Alps,
    ·surrendering the leader's yellow jersey and falling more than eight minutes
    ·behind. Afterward, he was all but convinced that the race was over for him.
    ·"What would you have done?" he asked. "Until yesterday, that was the worst day
    ·of my life."
    ·
    · Mr. Landis said he hasn't seen the test results, but people close to his
    ·Phonak cycling team said the ratio of testosterone to epitestosterone in his
    ·urine sample was 11 to 1, above the acceptable threshold of 4 to 1. Studies,
    ·including one conducted in 1996 at the National Public Health Institute in
    ·Helsinki, Finland, and one in 1988 at Huddinge Hospital in Stockholm, Sweden,
    ·indicate alcohol consumption can raise this ratio. Some researchers say the
    ·increase can be anywhere from 30% to more than 200%. Mr. Landis said he wasn't
    ·familiar with the research until he was told of it yesterday.
    ·
    · Last week, after he completed Stage 16, Mr. Landis told reporters his first
    ·priority was to have a cold beer. He said yesterday he went to an outdoor
    ·veranda with a bar near his hotel and drank two draft beers. After a crowd began
    ·to gather, he retired to the hotel with about five other people, including
    ·Phonak teammates Axel Merckx and Robert Hunter. Someone produced a bottle of
    ·Jack Daniel's, he said, and he had "at least four shots" before going to bed
    ·before 11:30 p.m. Because he doesn't usually drink much and was so skinny from
    ·weeks of racing, the alcohol definitely had an effect, he said yesterday. "I
    ·don't remember much." Nonetheless, Mr. Landis said, he felt no ill effects the
    ·next morning because of the "adrenaline and energy" of the Tour.
    ·
    · Mr. Landis said he will request today that officials examine the second of
    ·the two samples he provided to ensure that the first result wasn't flawed. The
    ·Phonak team said in a statement that if the second sample tests positive, Mr.
    ·Landis will be dismissed from the team. International Cycling Union President
    ·Pat McQuaid said in a statement that if the initial finding is confirmed, it
    ·would be "a great disappointment and an unacceptable violation."
    ·
    · A representative for Phonak, the Swiss hearing-aid maker that sponsors Mr.
    ·Landis's cycling team, didn't return a call for comment. In the weeks ahead, Mr.
    ·Landis said, he will begin what he expects to be a long, hard process of
    ·defending himself. "People have a preconceived idea of what goes on in cycling,"
    ·he said. "I can say I'm innocent, which I should say because I am, but people
    ·are going to believe whatever they believe."
    ·
    · Several of Mr. Landis's former teammates have come to his defense. Jonathan
    ·Vaughters, a Tour de France veteran, said he spoke to Mr. Landis yesterday and
    ·believes the testing system has failed. Mr. Vaughters said any number of factors,
    · from Mr. Landis's alcohol consumption, to the regular cortisone shots he was
    ·receiving for his injured hip, to his exhaustion from the stage before must have
    ·contributed to the "perfect storm" that caused the positive test. He noted that
    ·Mr. Landis had taken several tests during the Tour as a leader and stage winner
    ·and passed them.
    ·
    · "The Tour de France is finally cleaned up," Mr. Vaughters said. "Floyd won a
    ·clean race and now he's going to get hosed. It's just really unjust."
    ·
    · Gary Wadler, a physician and a member of the World Anti-Doping Agency, said
    ·he doesn't think the test results add up because Mr. Landis didn't show an
    ·elevated ratio in any other tests. "I can't imagine how taking a single dose of
    ·an anabolioc steroid could impact performance in the sport of cycling," he said.
    ·"They need to be taken for many weeks to have an effect."
    ·
    · Even if Mr. Landis is eventually cleared, it's unlikely drinking before races
    ·will become a strategy adopted by other endurance athletes. "No one wants to go
    ·through what Floyd is going through now," Allen Lim, one of Mr. Landis's coaches,
    · wrote in an email yesterday.
    ·
    ·
    ·
    · (END) Dow Jones Newswires
    ·
    · July 28, 2006 04:00 ET (08:00 GMT)
    ·
    ·

    -0-

  20. #95
    Peloton Dog patentcad's Avatar
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    Sounds like there could be several factors that may have resulted in this positive result, all of which need investigating:

    • Floyd was on medication and cortisone shots for his necrotic hip

    • Floyd and the boys did have a little whiskey and beer the night after Floyd's Bonk, and experts say this CAN influence this test

    Which begs the question: if having a shot and a beer or a legit cortisone shot for a medical condition can get you thrown out of the Tour de France for flunking the 'drug' testing, how valid IS that testing?

    Very strange indeed.

  21. #96
    Peloton Dog patentcad's Avatar
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    It's UTTER HOOEY sports fans. Read today's NY Times sports page. What a friggin JOKE this is.

    Floyd's getting SCREWED here. BIG time. Again, CYCLISTS DON'T USE STEROIDS like baseball/football players (no real benefit to endurance sports like cycling), AND IT WOULDN'T JUST IMPACT ONE TEST. Experts are all over the place questioning the validity of this test result. What a travesty. And what a PR DISASTER for the Tour and Cycling.

    This reminds me of Le Blanc pissing all over Lance last year after he had won 7 Tours and singlehandedly propelled the Tour to new levels of world wide popularity. Hey, maybe the French ARE idiots. You do have to wonder.

    I hate to say it, but this even makes ME think it's some dopey French anti-American thing. How ridiculous is THAT? Hell, nobody's more similar to one another than the pig-headed Americans/French.

  22. #97
    Senior Member mrkott3r's Avatar
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    This thread is just stupid.

    Thanks for the laugh though.

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    Senior Member mrkott3r's Avatar
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    No need to yell at me.
    Firstly the B sample has to be tested. So Floyd hasnt been stripped of the win or banned.
    Of course there will be an appeal. Slow down and see what happens. No need to work up a sweat.

    Just dont be naive about the matter. Its pretty unbelievable that a bloke loses 8mins in the GC then the next day gets 7 min back. Yeah its a great story, it may have happened, but there is nothing wrong with being skeptical, especially in a sport where drug cheating is pretty high.

  24. #99
    Senior Member crankstar's Avatar
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    >>Testosterone can build muscle and improve recovery time when used over a period of several weeks, said Dr. Gary Wadler, a member of the World Anti-Doping Agency and a spokesman for the American College of Sports Medicine. But if Landis had been a user, his earlier urine tests during the tour would have been affected, he said.

    "So something's missing here," Wadler said. "It just doesn't add up."<<

    Like the man said. It JUST DOESN'T ADD UP.
    Dont they use stored blood from previous training periods to help with the recovery time(the epo thing). so maybe the blood he got was from one of his steroid regiments, seems like a logical explination for "whats missing"

    much more logical then him completely losing it in 16 then getting drunk and kicking major ass in 17. that doesnt add up, something is definately missing from that scenario.

    just my opinion he may be innocent. 1 positive test does raise red flags. its not like people are accusing him with no evidence.

  25. #100
    Castiron Perineum Bockman's Avatar
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    all of the above. random drug testing can take place at any time during the year. officials can 'summon' you and you have less than 24 hours to submit a sample.

    Stage winners are manditorily tested (that's where they're hustled off to the second the race ends, the pee and blood trailer). Yellow jersey winners are (I believe) tested every day they're in the maillot jeune. random tests take place in the peleton by a lottery system.

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