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Let's talk about Floyd's test results here

Old 07-28-06, 05:49 AM
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I have to wonder if it's true. Could the alcohol have done it?

I know for a fact that sometimes when I've had a few drinks on a friday night, after a hard work week, I have monster rides saturday morning. I recognize the face Floyd had on after the stage. Sometimes I just feel so.......intense, during and after a ride when I've had a few drinks the night before. It's almost like the alcohol triggers aggresiveness. Would that be because of a testoserone imbalance I wonder, caused by the drinks?
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Old 07-28-06, 06:49 AM
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i'm no doctor, but i have spent my fair share of time in bars...from my expert alcohol opinion, through the course of the evening, all the men in the bar tend to get a bit more aggresive the more alcohol they consume (beer muscles anyone?) i'm pretty sure it is a proven fact that alcohol can affect certain people to become more violent/aggresive...is this because of an increase of testosterone? i have no medical data to back this up, but i do spend too much time in bars with many alcohol induced "badasses"
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Old 07-28-06, 07:17 AM
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>>Just dont be naive about the matter. Its pretty unbelievable that a bloke loses 8mins in the GC then the next day gets 7 min back. Yeah its a great story, it may have happened, but there is nothing wrong with being skeptical, especially in a sport where drug cheating is pretty high<<

Who's being naieve here? Wouldn't a cyclist use a doping method that might HELP him do what Floyd accomplished? Like EPO or blood doping?

One expert after another will tell you that steroid use to that end is really pointless. Look it up.

It doesn't add up. 'B' sample results notwithstanding. Period.
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Old 07-28-06, 07:17 AM
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In an interview he conducted over the phone he said his first reaction when he heard about the A sample was to go for a bottle. Does Floyd have a drinking problem?
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Old 07-28-06, 07:24 AM
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Originally Posted by robot
i'm no doctor, but i have spent my fair share of time in bars...from my expert alcohol opinion, through the course of the evening, all the men in the bar tend to get a bit more aggresive the more alcohol they consume (beer muscles anyone?) i'm pretty sure it is a proven fact that alcohol can affect certain people to become more violent/aggresive...is this because of an increase of testosterone? i have no medical data to back this up, but i do spend too much time in bars with many alcohol induced "badasses"

I think there's a more direct effect on inhibition control that explains the behavior moreso than an effect on testosterone.

"Whisky don't make liars, it just makes fools. So I didn't mean to say it, but I meant what I said."
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Old 07-28-06, 07:34 AM
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Did they say that the Testosterone level itself was very high?

Who knows, maybe his Testosterone level was actually normal, but the epitestosterone level very low.

If his liver was busy metabolising the Jack Daniels and Cortisone, maybe it was not metabolising his natural Testosterone in the same way (not enough epitestosterone produced).

Just a guess.
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Old 07-28-06, 07:40 AM
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Who's being naieve here? Wouldn't a cyclist use a doping method that might HELP him do what Floyd accomplished? Like EPO or blood doping?

One expert after another will tell you that steroid use to that end is really pointless. Look it up.
Some so called experts wouldn't know their arse from their elbow. Talk to any rider who has used testosterone as a performance enhancer and you will get the true picture.
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Old 07-28-06, 07:43 AM
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Originally Posted by classic1
Some so called experts wouldn't know their arse from their elbow. Talk to any rider who has used testosterone as a performance enhancer and you will get the true picture.
I can only accept this after YOU have explained the actual technical difference between your own arse and elbow. Thanks for that intellectual interlude.
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Old 07-28-06, 07:52 AM
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Originally Posted by patentcad
I can only accept this after YOU have explained the actual technical difference between your own arse and elbow. Thanks for that intellectual interlude.
I'll be damned. A post from you that doesn't include the words 'weenie', 'Cannondale' or 'six/13'
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Old 07-28-06, 08:09 AM
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11 to 1

The WSJ is quoting a source close to the PHonak team that Landis' T/E ratio was 11 to 1 (4 to 1 = positive) Looks like the natural occurring/jack daniels/ dehydration argument has an uphill battle.
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Old 07-28-06, 08:16 AM
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Originally Posted by classic1
I'll be damned. A post from you that doesn't include the words 'weenie', 'Cannondale' or 'six/13'
Listen you friggin weenie, one more response like that and I'll have to ride over you on my Cannondale Six13. In fact, I'll take steroids to get faster first.
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Old 07-28-06, 08:17 AM
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Also reporting that the actual testesterone level was low and the epi level real low. I'm not a biochemist but like John Eustice I don't see how a low testesterone level no matter the ratio is a performance enhancer.

Then again maybe it is.
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Old 07-28-06, 08:21 AM
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Post of the day.

Cheers
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Old 07-28-06, 08:27 AM
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Wait, if you're in Australia, do I have to ride over you BACKWARDS?

Good show by Cadel Evans and Robbie McEwen this year, eh? Now that McEwen dude, HE may be on steroids, 'roid rage and all : ).
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Old 07-28-06, 08:30 AM
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Originally Posted by patentcad
Floyd's getting SCREWED here. BIG time. Again, CYCLISTS DON'T USE STEROIDS like baseball/football players (no real benefit to endurance sports like cycling), AND IT WOULDN'T JUST IMPACT ONE TEST. Experts are all over the place questioning the validity of this test result. What a travesty. And what a PR DISASTER for the Tour and Cycling.
What's happening here is that Football steroid experts are presuming that the reasons and methods for steroid use for bulky athletes don't apply to cyclists, and so presume there's no reason for cyclists to use testosterone. You can be a football steroid expert, but still clueless about cycling cheating, and combined with some patriotic delusion of only guys from other countries cheat, project your hopes for a specific reality to conform to the the little knowledge you have.
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Old 07-28-06, 08:33 AM
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If both levels are very low the whole arguement that he took testosterone is moot. If he had taken exogenous testerone his total serum testosterone would be at least well into the normal range. The ratio doesn't hold up if the levels are below the normal range.
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Old 07-28-06, 08:34 AM
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Btw - I read they are going to submit the b sample to an isotope test. This test will specifically test for the presence of synthetic testosterone, so it should be pretty definitive. Sorry, didn't re-read the whole thread to see if anyone had posted this already or not, but I'm REALLY looking forward to the results of this test.
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Old 07-28-06, 08:35 AM
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Originally Posted by godspiral
What's happening here is that Football steroid experts are presuming that the reasons and methods for steroid use for bulky athletes don't apply to cyclists, and so presume there's no reason for cyclists to use testosterone. You can be a football steroid expert, but still clueless about cycling cheating, and combined with some patriotic delusion of only guys from other countries cheat, project your hopes for a specific reality to conform to the the little knowledge you have.

What's happening here is that cyclists don't use steroids to win the Tour de France. And never really have.

What's happening here is a cyclist chock full of steroids wouldn't pass this test every OTHER day and fail it only after Stage 17.

What's happening here is FAR more damaging to the image and ultimate integrity of the Tour de France and UCI pro cycling than it is to any individual. They SERIOUSLY need to rethink their logic here on how they're pursuing suspected dopers. It has turned into a witch hunt and a debacle for the sport. Read what sports writers are saying about what a joke pro cycling has become. And in my view, largely due to the way the UCI and Tour officials have conducted themselves in light of a vexing issue.

It is to their credit that they're TRYING to get a handle on this, moreso than most big time sports. But they are seriously screwing their own pooch here.
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Old 07-28-06, 08:46 AM
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I think its crap how the UCI treated this case. It seems whenever someone gets a positive sample they are already guilty without getting due process.

Even if Landis is cleared of this and hypothetically the alcohol or something else caused it, the guy is going through hell and some will dismiss any form of appeal so his title is tainted no matter what.

It would be one thing if he held the classic signs of EPO, or had a high level of testosterone (which I believe is not the case) and had the classic signs of doping, but this seems more like an anomaly than anything else.
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Old 07-28-06, 08:53 AM
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Originally Posted by pathdoc
If both levels are very low the whole arguement that he took testosterone is moot. If he had taken exogenous testerone his total serum testosterone would be at least well into the normal range. The ratio doesn't hold up if the levels are below the normal range.
Yep! This is part of the reason why I no longer believe he is guilty.
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Old 07-28-06, 09:02 AM
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Originally Posted by merlinextraligh
The WSJ is quoting a source close to the PHonak team that Landis' T/E ratio was 11 to 1 (4 to 1 = positive) Looks like the natural occurring/jack daniels/ dehydration argument has an uphill battle.
I thought 4:1 is normal; 6:1 is positive.

This link to this PubMed abstract summary was posted in another thread:

Effect of ethanol on the ratio between testosterone and epitestosterone in urine

Effect of ethanol on the ratio between testosterone and epitestosterone in urine.

Falk O, Palonek E, Bjorkhem I.
Department of Clinical Chemistry, Huddinge Hospital, Sweden.

The testosterone/epitestosterone weight ratio in urine is used to detect cases of doping when an athlete has treated himself with exogenous testosterone. When this ratio exceeds 6, it is considered evidence of testosterone doping. We show here that intake of ethanol can affect this ratio. Ingestion of 110-160 g of ethanol, about 2 g per kilogram body weight, increased the ratio between testosterone and epitestosterone in urine from 1.14 +/- 0.07 to 1.52 +/- 0.09 in four healthy male volunteers. The increase ranged from 30% to 90% in the different subjects studied (mean 41%). In cases where doping with testosterone is suspected, the possibility should be considered that at least part of an observed increased testosterone/epitestosterone ratio in urine is ascribable to previous ingestion of ethanol.

PMID: 3390919 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
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Old 07-28-06, 09:04 AM
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Originally Posted by Devil
Yep! This is part of the reason why I no longer believe he is guilty.
Just curious...

So what would be the explanation of this ratio on the single day that he road the ride of his life?

Seems like there's a lot of speculation bouncing around trying to explain how this could happen without some sort of doping or other nefarious activity. From what I've heard so far, it seems odd that something like cortisone shot would cause this. Actually that he would had something like that that would only effect that stage.
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Old 07-28-06, 09:13 AM
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Originally Posted by ravenmore
Btw - I read they are going to submit the b sample to an isotope test. This test will specifically test for the presence of synthetic testosterone, so it should be pretty definitive. Sorry, didn't re-read the whole thread to see if anyone had posted this already or not, but I'm REALLY looking forward to the results of this test.
An Isotopic ratio test would be definitive (unless he used natural testosterone extracted from cadavers ).
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Old 07-28-06, 09:28 AM
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Originally Posted by OrionKhan
Just curious...

So what would be the explanation of this ratio on the single day that he road the ride of his life?

Seems like there's a lot of speculation bouncing around trying to explain how this could happen without some sort of doping or other nefarious activity. From what I've heard so far, it seems odd that something like cortisone shot would cause this. Actually that he would had something like that that would only effect that stage.
Couldn't tell you, and that's just speculation anyways. All we have to go on (so far) is the test results. Let's just wait and see what happens.
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Old 07-28-06, 09:28 AM
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Originally Posted by Albany-12303
Did they say that the Testosterone level itself was very high?

Who knows, maybe his Testosterone level was actually normal, but the epitestosterone level very low.

If his liver was busy metabolising the Jack Daniels and Cortisone, maybe it was not metabolising his natural Testosterone in the same way (not enough epitestosterone produced).

Just a guess.
Finally some interesting speculation. I'm also interested in which way a bonk would tend to push things. And of course the already mentioned Testosterone level. If actually normal (as opposed to 'within acceptable limits') it would tend to help Floyd.
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