Let's talk about Floyd's test results here
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Originally Posted by Walter
Also reporting that the actual testesterone level was low and the epi level real low. I'm not a biochemist but like John Eustice I don't see how a low testesterone level no matter the ratio is a performance enhancer.
Since the info "leaked" that someone tested positive, wouldn't it be nice if the rest of the facts regarding the test (actual ratio and levels) were also reported semi-accurately?
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Originally Posted by robot
i'm no doctor, but i have spent my fair share of time in bars...from my expert alcohol opinion, through the course of the evening, all the men in the bar tend to get a bit more aggresive the more alcohol they consume (beer muscles anyone?) i'm pretty sure it is a proven fact that alcohol can affect certain people to become more violent/aggresive...is this because of an increase of testosterone? i have no medical data to back this up, but i do spend too much time in bars with many alcohol induced "badasses"
Here's a guy who is completely drained, both mentally and physically, after stage 16. Hugely emotional let down. He's obviously not a heavy drinker, and is physically just a small guy at 150 pounds. A couple of beers to start, then at least 4 shots of whiskey on top of that. I'm a confirmed whiskey drinker myself, and as far as I'm concerned, whiskey is the heroin of alcohols. If you want to get away from life in a hurry, which means that if you really want to get f*cked up quick, whiskey is a the way to do it.
Put it all together, the stress, the fatigue, the fact that I doubt he has a high tolerance for alcohol........I bet he was pretty buzzed indeed. When he went to sleep, or passed out, or whatever, I bet his body took over completely, because his mind was pretty much gone.
Then there's the fact that it was Jack he was doing shots of. Again, I'm speaking from experience. There's something a little different about Jack Daniels whiskey. Jack will land you in jail. Some people can drink it with no problem, myself, I won't touch it unless I'm in very mellow state of mind. I'm a Jim Beam drinker mostly, and virtually never have a problem with Beam. But Jack.....gets me into trouble. Seems to trigger the worst in me. (testoserone?)
I have to wonder if his body was turning itself inside out all night, I.E., did the alcohol have a profoundly physiological on him? I'd love to believe it. But I wonder what it would do to all others who have been accused of doping, if it was proven that the alcohol was what did it to Floyd...
#128
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Originally Posted by patentcad
Robbie McEwen this year, eh? Now that McEwen dude, HE may be on steroids, 'roid rage and all : ).
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Maybe a little too much Coke with the Jack?
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Originally Posted by Walter
Also reporting that the actual testesterone level was low and the epi level real low. I'm not a biochemist but like John Eustice I don't see how a low testesterone level no matter the ratio is a performance enhancer.
Then again maybe it is.
Then again maybe it is.
Right now ABC is reporting that Floyds Testosterone level was high. I've not seen any news report saying his level was low, just many of the more professional ones mearly reporting that the test that is 'positive' is for the ratios. I've seen nothing even implying the actual level is low. There is only an implication from silence that the testosterone level is not beyond allowable levels. That is not low or even normal.
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Originally Posted by Keith99
Source?
Right now ABC is reporting that Floyds Testosterone level was high. I've not seen any news report saying his level was low, just many of the more professional ones mearly reporting that the test that is 'positive' is for the ratios. I've seen nothing even implying the actual level is low. There is only an implication from silence that the testosterone level is not beyond allowable levels. That is not low or even normal.
Right now ABC is reporting that Floyds Testosterone level was high. I've not seen any news report saying his level was low, just many of the more professional ones mearly reporting that the test that is 'positive' is for the ratios. I've seen nothing even implying the actual level is low. There is only an implication from silence that the testosterone level is not beyond allowable levels. That is not low or even normal.
#134
SLJ 6/8/65-5/2/07
John Eustice reporting for ESPN which is owned by ABC.
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Yep! This is part of the reason why I no longer believe he is guilty.
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Originally Posted by EURO
Look deep into yourself. Would you think the same if this was Carlos Sastre?
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Originally Posted by merlinextraligh
The WSJ is quoting a source close to the PHonak team that Landis' T/E ratio was 11 to 1 (4 to 1 = positive) Looks like the natural occurring/jack daniels/ dehydration argument has an uphill battle.
The leading expert on testing for these ratios, and for testing whether the ratio is the result of natural biology, or is the result of doping is Don Catlin, the director of the WADA- accredited drug-testing laboratory here in the USA. And, Catlin has termed the premature leaking of a preliminary test result by the French lab as "tragic".
Catlin has said "It's possible to have a T/E ratio of over six and still not have taken testosterone. Further, Catlin is aware that the traditional methods of deriving a T/E ratio are notoriously unreliable. With those methods, figuring out whether the ratio was "natural" or the result of doping would require that a series of four urine samples be taken over a number of days, and then attempting to guestimate from the pattern of results of four days of testing what the person's natural ratio is. That process is complicated by the fact that drinking alcohol, and taking various medication can easily jump someone's ratio from 4:1 on Monday to 12:1 on Tuesday.
Catlin helped develop a better method of testing using a carbon-isotope test. This method is complex and expensive, requiring more expensive lab equipment, and better trained lab staff. IF (and ONLY if) the carbon-isotope test is correctly performed, it is possible to detect that the T/E ratio is the result of doping, rather than natural biological variations.
The fact that the French lab leaked the results to the press BEFORE the "B" sample was testing, BEFORE the three required follow-up samples were taken, and BEFORE Landis was permitted to have his doctors supply information about the medications he is taking (with approval) for his hip and thyroid problems is a gross violation of WADA's own rules, UCI rules, and laws protecting the privacy rights of the persons being tested.
The outrageous misconduct of the French lab caused Catlin to say: "It's...tragic this even got out." Catlin is one of the few people in the world to fully grasp how unreliable that preliminary "A" sample test is, without the three required follow-up samples, and without carbon-isotope ratio testing by a lab that has demonstrated its trustworthness and reliability with that method.
Prediction: when this is all over, in six months, ten months, a year...Landis will own the yellow jersey he was wearing on the podium last Sunday. But, the staff of the French lab will have succeeded in doing what they did to Lance Armstrong last August, with another "leak" of untrustworthy testing information. They will have placed a permanent cloud over the greatest even in the life of Floyd Landis.
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Does anyone know what the effect of excessive sustained activity (say like a 3 week stage race) does to ones hormone levels.
I'm wondering because even if his test levels were "normal" and his epitest levels were "very low" I'm not sure that it really means anything other than the levels were abnormal. For example, if under severe stress both test and epitest levels decrease (temporarily until the stress is over) the result would appear to suggest normal epitest behavior and possible doping that spiked the test levels back up to what would be "normal" in a non-stress situation. Then again, maybe some of the medication relating to his hip could have caused a spurious result although similar results might be expected in prior stages or results from prior races...
Just curious...
I'm wondering because even if his test levels were "normal" and his epitest levels were "very low" I'm not sure that it really means anything other than the levels were abnormal. For example, if under severe stress both test and epitest levels decrease (temporarily until the stress is over) the result would appear to suggest normal epitest behavior and possible doping that spiked the test levels back up to what would be "normal" in a non-stress situation. Then again, maybe some of the medication relating to his hip could have caused a spurious result although similar results might be expected in prior stages or results from prior races...
Just curious...
Last edited by Mojo GoGo; 07-28-06 at 11:29 AM.
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Does anyone know what the effect of excessive sustained activity (say like a 3 week stage race) does to ones hormone levels.
However, in the case of someone with hypothyroidism, what can be affected is the production of SHBG, a protein that testosterone binds with in order to be biologically processed. A hypothyroid condition can lead to a reduction in the production of SHBG, which in turn can lead to a relative excess of testosterone, and, thus, a high T/E ratio.
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Originally Posted by alanbikehouston
First of all, YOU have not seen the actual test results. The French lab illegally gave the test results to the Times of London, but did not send one to you.
All I did was pass on some information from a credible source that I thought others might find interesting. No need to attack me.
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a day after his hugest bonk...of course his body will react differently than if he never
bonked and went so low. much like ketones...if you have a strong ride but still have power
left, you won't have many ketones...but if you bonk hard and push through it, your urine
will have higher amounts. same deal with the endocrine system....going way deep will
change the balance and can make normal things go haywire.
I think he is innocent, and he's just one mean dog on the bike when motivated. he's always
been a killer
bonked and went so low. much like ketones...if you have a strong ride but still have power
left, you won't have many ketones...but if you bonk hard and push through it, your urine
will have higher amounts. same deal with the endocrine system....going way deep will
change the balance and can make normal things go haywire.
I think he is innocent, and he's just one mean dog on the bike when motivated. he's always
been a killer
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Originally Posted by mrkott3r
This thread is just stupid.
I can make a full justification for my contribution, based on a genetic predisposition for French bashing....
....I'm English
The love hate relationship between folks either side of the English channel has a healthy 900+ year history, after all.
Bonjour,
Ed
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Originally Posted by Helmet Head
It is my understanding that whatever direct effect such activity has on testosterone, it also has a proportional effect on epitestosterone, and, so, the T/E ratio should not be affected.
However, in the case of someone with hypothyroidism, what can be affected is the production of SHBG, a protein that testosterone binds with in order to be biologically processed. A hypothyroid condition can lead to a reduction in the production of SHBG, which in turn can lead to a relative excess of testosterone, and, thus, a high T/E ratio.
However, in the case of someone with hypothyroidism, what can be affected is the production of SHBG, a protein that testosterone binds with in order to be biologically processed. A hypothyroid condition can lead to a reduction in the production of SHBG, which in turn can lead to a relative excess of testosterone, and, thus, a high T/E ratio.
Unfortunately, either way cycling as a sport loses.
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Originally Posted by Ed Holland
It's important to point out at this stage that no French rider has tested positive for testosterone...
Of course he tested high for testosterone...My wife would have high testosterone levels compared to the French.
#145
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To wit:
>>Tour champion Landis pleads innocence, says testosterone naturally produced
by Chris Wright
July 28, 2006
MADRID (AFP) - America's Tour de France winner Floyd Landis, facing the loss of his title in a doping scandal, insisted again he was innocent.
The 30-year-old rider said that his positive test for testosterone showed up levels which "are absolutely natural and produced by my own organism".
Landis said he was in Madrid to consult with his legal team and added he was willing to undergo whatever tests the sport's authorities asked of him to establish his innocence.
"Until such research has been carried out I ask not to be judged and much less to be sentenced by anyone," Landis told a news conference at a Madrid hotel.
"I'd like to make it absolutely clear that I'm not in any doping process," he added.
"I will proceed to undergo all of these tests" to show the levels "are absolutely natural and produced by my own organism," he promised.
The American added that he wished to state "categorically that my Tour win was exclusively due to many years of training and dedication" to his sport.
Landis said he was in Spain "for meetings to establish a plan" to respond to the doping allegations and that he and his entourage would "explain to the world why this is not a doping case but a natural occurrence."
Landis, who is facing the sack from his Phonak team if the B sample confirms the first result, passed on medical questions to his lawyer, Jose Maria Buxeda, who is also the lawyer for Spanish racer Roberto Heras, caught doping on the 2005 Tour of Spain.
If he is stripped of his Tour de France title he would be the first ever champion to suffer that fate.
"I came here to tell you my point of view," said Landis, who succeeded compatriot Lance Armstrong on the winners podium.
Armstrong has also repeatedly been questioned over how he managed to come back from life-threatening cancer to land his championship-winning performances but has never tested positive for doping.
"I am proud of the fact that I won the tour because I was the strongest candidate - that's my position," Landis said, adding he would be pushing for the B probe to be carried out as soon as possible at the French laboratory of Chatenay-Malabry.
Landis said Thursday in an interview with US magazine Sports Illustrated that the abnormally high Testosterone/Epitestosteron ratio which showed up after his staggering solo 130km breakaway win in race stage 17 could be due to a thyroid problem or possibly to have occurred naturally.
The day before he had collapsed on the 16th stage and had tumbled down to 11th place overall, 8:08mins behind Spaniard Oscar Pereiro.
The Spaniard, who finished second overall, will be promoted to champion if Landis is kicked out.
In the interview he admitted he "can't be hopeful" of the outcome.
During the Tour Landis was given special dispensation to take cortisone shots for hip pain. He faces surgery on the hip for what is a degenerative condition, while he also took oral medication for hyperthyroid problems.
Landis and his doctor are investigating whether those products, given the green light by organisers, could have altered his testosterone levels.
Insisting he would keep fighting his corner, Landis concluded: "My intention is to compete normally during this year," depending on the outcome of the expected hip operation.<<
>>Tour champion Landis pleads innocence, says testosterone naturally produced
by Chris Wright
July 28, 2006
MADRID (AFP) - America's Tour de France winner Floyd Landis, facing the loss of his title in a doping scandal, insisted again he was innocent.
The 30-year-old rider said that his positive test for testosterone showed up levels which "are absolutely natural and produced by my own organism".
Landis said he was in Madrid to consult with his legal team and added he was willing to undergo whatever tests the sport's authorities asked of him to establish his innocence.
"Until such research has been carried out I ask not to be judged and much less to be sentenced by anyone," Landis told a news conference at a Madrid hotel.
"I'd like to make it absolutely clear that I'm not in any doping process," he added.
"I will proceed to undergo all of these tests" to show the levels "are absolutely natural and produced by my own organism," he promised.
The American added that he wished to state "categorically that my Tour win was exclusively due to many years of training and dedication" to his sport.
Landis said he was in Spain "for meetings to establish a plan" to respond to the doping allegations and that he and his entourage would "explain to the world why this is not a doping case but a natural occurrence."
Landis, who is facing the sack from his Phonak team if the B sample confirms the first result, passed on medical questions to his lawyer, Jose Maria Buxeda, who is also the lawyer for Spanish racer Roberto Heras, caught doping on the 2005 Tour of Spain.
If he is stripped of his Tour de France title he would be the first ever champion to suffer that fate.
"I came here to tell you my point of view," said Landis, who succeeded compatriot Lance Armstrong on the winners podium.
Armstrong has also repeatedly been questioned over how he managed to come back from life-threatening cancer to land his championship-winning performances but has never tested positive for doping.
"I am proud of the fact that I won the tour because I was the strongest candidate - that's my position," Landis said, adding he would be pushing for the B probe to be carried out as soon as possible at the French laboratory of Chatenay-Malabry.
Landis said Thursday in an interview with US magazine Sports Illustrated that the abnormally high Testosterone/Epitestosteron ratio which showed up after his staggering solo 130km breakaway win in race stage 17 could be due to a thyroid problem or possibly to have occurred naturally.
The day before he had collapsed on the 16th stage and had tumbled down to 11th place overall, 8:08mins behind Spaniard Oscar Pereiro.
The Spaniard, who finished second overall, will be promoted to champion if Landis is kicked out.
In the interview he admitted he "can't be hopeful" of the outcome.
During the Tour Landis was given special dispensation to take cortisone shots for hip pain. He faces surgery on the hip for what is a degenerative condition, while he also took oral medication for hyperthyroid problems.
Landis and his doctor are investigating whether those products, given the green light by organisers, could have altered his testosterone levels.
Insisting he would keep fighting his corner, Landis concluded: "My intention is to compete normally during this year," depending on the outcome of the expected hip operation.<<
#146
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A: Trois
A: Trois
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Originally Posted by Keith99
Finally some interesting speculation. I'm also interested in which way a bonk would tend to push things. And of course the already mentioned Testosterone level. If actually normal (as opposed to 'within acceptable limits') it would tend to help Floyd.
So... no, he didn't have HIGH levels, it was actually kind of low... what was 'HIGH' was the ratio... so his epitestosterone was really low.
And the media doesn't give a $%&# what they're doing to the sport... they just found some sensational headlines... hell, I had to come on here to find out who won the tour.... but damned if it wasn't all over the news in like 30 seconds that he'd failed the first step of the drug test. Actually the headlines were more like "LANDIS GUILTY OF DRUG USE!!!!!!!!!"
What the #$%^ ever happened to innocent until proven guilty in this country?
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Originally Posted by Ed Holland
It's important to point out at this stage that no French rider has tested positive for testosterone...
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Armstrong never got caught cheating.
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#149
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Originally Posted by So Cal commuter
Of course he tested high for testosterone...My wife would have high testosterone levels compared to the French.
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Originally Posted by iluvfreebeer
Good point, as they have no balls.