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Let's talk about Floyd's test results here

Old 07-28-06, 12:00 PM
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This just in: Arnold Schwarzenegger, Barry Bonds, Hulk Hogan and Ben Johnson have organized a defense fund for Flandis.
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Armstrong never got caught cheating.
That probably makes him as good a cheater as a cyclist.

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Old 07-28-06, 12:02 PM
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Originally Posted by voltman
Lance is French?
Lance Who?
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Armstrong never got caught cheating.
That probably makes him as good a cheater as a cyclist.

-- Some guy at the Dallas Crits
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Old 07-28-06, 12:04 PM
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Originally Posted by iluvfreebeer
Lance Who?
The gay guy.
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Old 07-28-06, 12:05 PM
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Once upon a time there lived an orphaned bunny and an orphaned snake. By a surprising coincidence, both were blind from birth.

One day, the bunny was hopping through the forest, and the snake was slithering through the forest, when the bunny tripped over the snake and fell down.

"Oh, my," said the bunny, "I'm terribly sorry. I didn't mean to hurt you. I've been blind since birth, so, I can't see where I'm going. In fact, since I'm also an orphan, I don't even know what I am."

"It's quite OK," replied the snake. "Actually, my story is much the same as yours. I, too, have been blind since birth, and also never knew my mother. Tell you what, maybe I could slither all over you, and work out what you are, so at least you'll have that going for you."

"Oh, that would be wonderful" replied the bunny.

So the snake slithered all over the bunny, and said, "Well, you're covered with soft fur; you have really long ears; your nose twitches; and you have a soft cottony tail. I'd say that you must be a bunny rabbit."

"Oh, thank you! Thank you," cried the bunny, in obvious excitement. The bunny suggested to the snake, "Maybe I could feel you all over with my paw, and help you the same way that you've helped me."

So the bunny felt the snake all over, and remarked, "Well, you're smooth and slippery, and you have a forked tongue, no backbone and no balls. I'd say you must be French."
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Old 07-28-06, 12:06 PM
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Originally Posted by bmclaughlin807
What the #$%^ ever happened to innocent until proven guilty in this country?

That law doesnt apply in France. You're actually guilty until proven innocent.
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Old 07-28-06, 12:06 PM
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The Floyd Landis debate will turn into the UCI Competence Debate - It already is

As it well should.

This testosterone test is pointless for a number of reasons:

• Intended to detect anabolic steroids, it's focusing on a drug not widely used by competitive cyclists to cheat. What's the point?

• I've read one expert after another from all kinds of credentials essentially say there is too much potential for high readings from completely natural causes.

Which does beg the question: WHAT are they doing over there? Shouldn't they have RELEVANT doping controls? Not ones riddled with flaws/open to question/ testing for substances that aren't a threat to the GC?

Phil Ligget is in the media talking about this as a witch hunt too. Man, this is going to get ugly. But for pro cycling, the UCI, the Tour organizers et al most of all. It's their friggin bed. Idiots. Let them lie in it.

I'll enjoy watching them twist in Le Wind.
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Old 07-28-06, 12:07 PM
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I'm pretty sure Kristin Armstrong does not have balls.
Or would it be politically incorrect to test for that?
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Armstrong never got caught cheating.
That probably makes him as good a cheater as a cyclist.

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Old 07-28-06, 12:07 PM
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Originally Posted by SpongeDad
Not the worst outcome, considering the fact that revolution notwithstanding, every decent value we have comes from the British, the British gave up slavery before we did and a consolidated British Empire would have favored Britain in WWI and surely decreased the odds of WWII happening or taking as long as it did.
We should send them some cookbooks as a thank you!
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Old 07-28-06, 12:10 PM
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Originally Posted by bmclaughlin807
What the #$%^ ever happened to innocent until proven guilty in this country?
Please.. . this is ONLY in reference to a court of law where one is presumed innocent unless the state can prove that you are guilty.

In any other aspect of life you are not guaranteed presumption of innocence and most of the time you won't get it.

If your employer thinks you stole from him, he will FIRE you. If your wife thinks you are stepping out she can divorce you. If a casino thinks you are a cheat they will THROW you out. You have no presumption of innocence and neither does Floyd unless he enters an American courtroom.

Not saying it is good or fair, but it is life.
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Old 07-28-06, 12:24 PM
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I just want this whole thing to disappear.
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Old 07-28-06, 12:45 PM
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The question is... do the sponsors and the UCI really want to clean up the sport? Sponsors want to be on the podium for exposure.

Here's an interesting take from VeloNews today. Basically, the more we delve into this, the less we know or can conclude.
https://www.velonews.com/news/fea/10605.0.html
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Old 07-28-06, 12:46 PM
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I've read somewhere that Floyd did not actually bonk the day previously but simply "felt like crap the whole day and when things heated up [he] couldn't follow." If he was feeling like crap the previous day for reasons besides his legs (we've all felt like crap before for no good reason), perhaps he got an inadvertent rest day on stage 16; enough to win back the time on stage 17.

FWIW, he didn't win back the time because he was going faster than everyone; he won it back because he went faster than everyone up one or two initial climbs and nobody bothered to chase till the end when it was too late to win back the full 8 or 9 minutes he had on most everyone. He got back to within 30" because of a few teams' strategic errors combined with his bullheadedness in pressing on. Not some superhuman strength. It was a mountain stage with 5 big climbs. Riding in a group isn't going to help you much. By the time people started chasing hard, you'd have to accuse the entire peloton of drug doping if they caught him because they would have expended exactly the same amount of energy Floyd did. Actually, probably more. There's no hiding from gravity like you can from the wind.

It looked spectacular because of the way he motored away from everyone and shed the people who were in the initial break (who weren't GC candidates by any means); but really, Lances team has done the same thing before, just that his team usually does it on the last climb of the day and usually someone bothers to chase. Think of how many times USPS (or Discovery) shattered the peloton at the start of the last climb leaving just Lance and only about 4 others hanging onto his wheel. Now imagine the same thing, the same effort from team and leader, but it is on the first climb of the day and nobody bothers to chase until he is 8 minutes ahead. Now you've got Landis. It wasn't a superhuman feat which hasn't been demonstrated before (think Lance, or Merckx before him); it is a supreme effort by a very good cyclist coupled with piss poor strategy by the other teams. You are not supposed to let the guy get 8 minutes ahead of you. 2 or 3 you can get back on the flats between the mountains. 8 or 9 the guy stays away.

As for the recovery bit and the doctor who said it takes three days to recover from a mountain stage: remember that all these guys climbed the same mountains. Landis only had to perform better than his competitors, all of whom were also tired.
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Old 07-28-06, 12:59 PM
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I don't see the test as irrelevant (think sprinters), but it does seem to not consider all the pertinent information. The statements from Dick Pound, and from UCI seem to be less than rational - although it's possible that some journalists quoted them out of context.
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Old 07-28-06, 01:09 PM
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Originally Posted by CyLowe97
The question is... do the sponsors and the UCI really want to clean up the sport? Sponsors want to be on the podium for exposure.

Here's an interesting take from VeloNews today. Basically, the more we delve into this, the less we know or can conclude.
https://www.velonews.com/news/fea/10605.0.html

I really think they do. But I see two trends emerging here:

• They're not particularly competent @ the UCI and the Tour organization in this regard

or
• The anti-American cyclist hostility among traditional Euro cycling fans/organizations has infected the UCI

As usual, the truth may lie somewhere in the middle.

Either way, what a stinkin' mess.
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Old 07-28-06, 01:25 PM
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The latest denial from Floyd seems to say his levels were high.

Where are all these sources saying his levels were not high?

You can go the the MSN page and see reports implying the levels are high. I've seen nothing except arguments from silence to imply htat they are not high. (Other than on this board).
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Old 07-28-06, 01:31 PM
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The one thing I don't buy in all of this is the anti-American accusations.

How many Americans were expelled due to UCI Pro Tour agreements the night before the Tour? None.

It's not a nationalistic problem in my mind. That's too convenient.

The leaks of the A sample are the bigger problem. You are correct that incompetence in this matter and others only erodes confidence in the sanctioning body's authority to rule in a fair manner.

That L'Equipe wants to sell more papers with accusations is a media tactic that has gone on much longer than professional sports have been around. That's just bad journalism and should not factor into the real case. It does affect the 'court of public opinion,' though, which is unfortunate.
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Old 07-28-06, 01:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Keith99
The latest denial from Floyd seems to say his levels were high.

Where are all these sources saying his levels were not high?

You can go the the MSN page and see reports implying the levels are high. I've seen nothing except arguments from silence to imply htat they are not high. (Other than on this board).
I heard it via ESPN's Mike and Mike show this morning on the drive to work. They had their [ESPN's] analyst on saying the test level was "normal" while epitest was "very low" and that he expected FL to win at CAS in 6 months and he specifically commented that had the test values been high his comments and view / prediction for FL would be different.
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Old 07-28-06, 01:33 PM
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I thing this editorial about says it all "Tour de farce"

https://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/othe...ng/5224304.stm
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Old 07-28-06, 01:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Kenal0
We should send them some cookbooks as a thank you!
Kenal0
I believe McDonalds is already in the UK, so there wouldn't be any need.

Last edited by MacMan; 07-28-06 at 03:15 PM.
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Old 07-28-06, 01:53 PM
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Originally Posted by patentcad
What's happening here is a cyclist chock full of steroids wouldn't pass this test every OTHER day and fail it only after Stage 17.
AFAIK, the recipe for cheating with steroids in cycling is to apply a patch to your scrotum after stages to help speed recovery. Letting you use small amounts when you need it, so that you don't step over the red line. You most definitely can pass 100 tests and fail one, if you either screw up, or somehow a reaction with something else happens (alcohool, cortizone, natural rush from winning?)

To answer another question on this page, the expectation for most riders is to have low testosterone levels after a difficult hill climbing day (bonk should be even worse, I'm guessing). That's why they need to top off levels.
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Old 07-28-06, 02:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Keith99
You can go the the MSN page and see reports implying the levels are high.
That is the media screwing the pooch - again. NPR had a thoughtful segment this morning detailing what the test showed (the ratio, not the level) and that it didn't necessarily mean that he doped. On the same program the headlines were, "Tests show that FL had very high levels of T in his blood" [italics mine]. Every other headline I've seen made some reference to high T levels or cheating. Yet neither of those may be inferred from the facts that have come out. But the media doesn't care. It just wants to sell papers.

I've seen nothing except arguments from silence to imply htat they are not high. (Other than on this board).
Mojo answered that.
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Old 07-28-06, 02:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Keith99
The latest denial from Floyd seems to say his levels were high.

Where are all these sources saying his levels were not high?

You can go the the MSN page and see reports implying the levels are high. I've seen nothing except arguments from silence to imply that they are not high. (Other than on this board).
ESPN's cycling expert, for one. And at least the Wall St Journal article stressed the test was a ratio (Floyd tested at 11-to-1, the threshold is 4-to-1).

EVERY other media report has it wrong, IMO - ASSUMING a "high ratio" automatically means high testosterone, instead of the other option of super-low epitestosterone.
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Old 07-28-06, 02:18 PM
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You know, you can't really take anything that is being reported right now to heart. I heard Floyd's press conference with my own two ears and he specifically said that he didn't want to try to blame alcohol consumption or his Thyroid drugs for the anomoly because he didn't understand the science and it all seemed so absurd. Next thing you know they're reporting that he's trying to blame it on those very things. So, read through it all, take it with a grain of salt and wait, hopefully more patiently than I am.
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Old 07-28-06, 02:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Thulsadoom
I have to wonder if it's true. Could the alcohol have done it?

I know for a fact that sometimes when I've had a few drinks on a friday night, after a hard work week, I have monster rides saturday morning. I recognize the face Floyd had on after the stage. Sometimes I just feel so.......intense, during and after a ride when I've had a few drinks the night before. It's almost like the alcohol triggers aggresiveness. Would that be because of a testoserone imbalance I wonder, caused by the drinks?

I've seen that many times myself. Almost feel like my dirty little secret is crawling out of the bag! I've done MANY rides in Vegas while visiting after stumbling back to my room the night before. Seems those are always my best rides (as long as I get enough sleep). My riding buddies usually head off to the buffet while I just head off to the bar. My studies have been anything but scientific, but I would say that alternating Newcastle with Jack through the night has provided rocket fuel for me the next day....
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Old 07-28-06, 02:30 PM
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Originally Posted by godspiral
AFAIK, the recipe for cheating with steroids in cycling is to apply a patch to your scrotum after stages to help speed recovery. Letting you use small amounts when you need it, so that you don't step over the red line. You most definitely can pass 100 tests and fail one, if you either screw up, or somehow a reaction with something else happens (alcohool, cortizone, natural rush from winning?)

To answer another question on this page, the expectation for most riders is to have low testosterone levels after a difficult hill climbing day (bonk should be even worse, I'm guessing). That's why they need to top off levels.
Testosterone is a hormone. I don't think you can "run out" of it. It's not a nutrient like sodium or suger.

The patch is about elevating testosterone levels to higher than normal to stimulate the body to repair itself faster. Not to "top off" a low testosterone level.
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