eparrot

I certainly have no idea whether Floyd is innocent or guilty - anyone who presumes they do at this point is either fooling themselves or is one of the tiny number of people involved in one of the alphabet soup organizations that might (note I said might) actually have information that is pretty solid one way or the other.

As I have been tested several times myself , the first really interesting part a bout this whole affair was last week when Floyd's lawyers released their request to have the charges dismissed. The following statement was most interesting:

"In the case of the mismatched sample identification codes, the alleged confirmed T/E data on the 'B' sample is from a sample number that was not assigned to Landis," Jacobs's statement said.


those of you who are familiar with testing procedures may want to skip the next paragraph, but for those who araen't, I'll outline how it works for USADA/WADA tests for Track & field, which I am told are very similar to those for cycling. First, you pee in a cup with someone watching you like a hawk for hidden catheters. Then you close the lid and carry it out to somewhere where you can write - a table, etc. You put a bit more than half the sample in a smaller container that has a unique number on it. You seal it with a price of tape and put a sticker over it with a different unique number. Then you repeat the process with the remaining sample left in the original cup. You triple-check to ensure that the same numbers are on both samples and that the lid is tightly sealed and the sticker is securely affixed. I can't recall if the samples are labelled A and B at this point - I think not, but they may be. Then you put each sample in a styrofoam container with another numbered seal on it. Through this process, you are also confirming all these numbers on a sheet of paper that you get to keep (the test adminstrator has anothre copy of this which you sign off on also).


As we all know, one sample - the A sample - gets tested anonymously. If it is positive (and over 99% of the random tests in both track & field and cycling are negative as opposed to say the first time baseball tested and it was less than 95% negative even with the tests announced in advance), then the athlete and representative are present for not just the opening of the B sample - at which point they can confirm that the numbers match - but for the test administration as well. Obviously some parts of the test administration may take time to process and there may be times during those hours when the athlete may not be able to directly view the sample - since I have never had to see a B sample tested, I am not sure.


The reason the part of Floyd's defense I cited is so interesting is that it is easily provable or disproval, barring of course some large scale conspiracy. Either those numbers matched or they didn't. If they didn't, Floyd's lawyer would have pointed it out when the B sample was tested and it would be in the transcripts of the B sample testing procedure, which as far as I know are not public at this point. When they do the B sample test, the athlete signs off on whether it is the same sample or not. So I believe that at least this little narrow piece of the puzzle will be answered pretty clearly before this is over, even if nothing else is. If Floyd signed off on the B sample as his own, then this piece of the defense is not particularly valid - doesn't mean he's guilty, but at least one small "act" we can be fairly certain of.


The fact is, being an athlete at a reasonably high level of track & field, I suspect a lot of doping goes on, based on a variety of things I've experienced. I haven't been at a high enough level to profit much financially from doping (racewalkers aren't exactly highly paid athletes, although there have been plenty of failed tests at the top ten in the world level in the past 20 years) , really, and I've never been tempted, but my own personal opinion (opinion only) is that a lot of the top athletes are dirty. I also know of enough examples of labs clearly blowing it, either by accident or design, to not simply assume that because someone tested positive that they are guilty (do a Google on the case of mile runner Bernard Lagat, who's B sample was likely not even his sample).

None of this really changes my love for either track & field or cycling. As an athlete, I know I'm clean and that's all I can control, and as a fan, I simply cheer for the athletes until they are told they can't compete and then I cheer for someone else. Vino just kicked butt today and if he tests positive in the future, it can't retroactively change how much I enjoyed following him in this year's Vuelta. I do feel that blowhards like Dick Pound make matters worse, not better, and that there are a number of ways testing could be improved and made more reliable. The T/E test has caused more controversy than any others over the past few years and if Mr. Pound put half the effort into pushing for say a million person sample size to use as justification for it that he puts into inserting his foot in his mouth, all sports would be better off.


EP

kenny!

According to this article we should hear something from the USADA in the next week or so.

https://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20060917...a_060917191753

dbrower

In another forum, the oft-confused purpose of the B sample observer was explained to me. Buxeda's job was not to say "stop" if the numbers didn't match. His job was to observe, and at most, notice if Nazi Frogmen were messing things up. If anything, he'd have been wise to jot down in his own notebook mismatched numbers, to bring up with the defense reply. There is no role for the athlete's observer to interfere with the testing done by the "accredited" lab in any way.

-dB https://trustbut.blogspot.com for Landis news, research, and comment.

dbrower

The review board recommendation is *supposed* to come out today. If it does not, it means they are struggling, or playing politics.

-dB

Murrays

Come on, just admit you doped and help your sport out

Seriously, are you saying Floyd (or his representative) signed off when his B sample was tested or when it was labeled?

-murray

eparrot

>Seriously, are you saying Floyd (or his representative) signed off when his B sample was tested or when >it was labeled?
>-murray

My understanding has always been that the athlete (or more likely the representative) is shown each sticker and label as the sample is removed from the layers of packaging I described, and points out any discrepancies. But someone else just posted suggesting that this is not the case and the representative only observes. I've gotta confess that having never seen a B sample being tested, that may be correct - I may have been misinformed. I can see that they would want a lawyer objecting every ten seconds while they are trying to go through the testing process. I do know that there is some sort of signature required, but it may just be acknowledging that the process is occurring.

If the representative only observes, then I can only assume that there is a video record or something that would confirm this type of discrepancy - maybe that's not a safe assumption. If not, it is pretty disturbing, because one of the purposes of the B sample is to remove any doubt that the sample has been tampered with and that all the numbers match. If Floyd's guy claims that the numbers don't match and the lab claims they do, it will just be "he said she said", avoidance of which is one of the main reasons to have the $#%ing B sample.

Bottom line is that this part of his defense SHOULD be easily resolved one way or the other with some sort of hard evidence. If not, it means the testing process is more flawed than I have been led to believe by the athletes and coaches I have talked to about it.

EdP

Trevor98

The representative would not give the lab the opportunity to correct the problem on the spot.

davefarb

Floyd has Hot Pee Pee Disease!

kenny!

USADA charges Landis with doping, Landis to appeal.

Seems the USADA didn't find Floyd's lawyers areguments about flawed testing compelling enough to drop the case.

https://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060923/...andis_doping_1

dbrower

Today's funny rumour is that the ADRB didn't even consider the merits of Landis' case because they couldn't get the 370 page lab report translated. So they threw up their hands and punted it to the hearing.


-dB https://trustbut.blogspot.com for Landis news, research and comment.

kenny!

Have TDF lab test results been leaked? Like actual documentation...

https://trustbut.blogspot.com/

bbarend

This is pretty interesting. I didn't see it posted yet.
https://www.usatoday.com/sports/cycli...-defense_x.htm

dbrower

FL.com is melting down; can be had from https://trustbut.com with indexes and introductory
material.

-dB

ggusta

Amazing how this topic has lost its appeal. At least in this forum.

Helmet Head

However, in a forum where floyd himself is actually posting....

ggusta

I was referring to this forum, i am following it there too.

davefarb

Forsake rightiousness and see the wrath of the Lord!

ggusta

What I find interesting is that there is more facts coming out now and somehow there is less commentary. Perhaps the mob mentality that wanted to so badly believe he is a doper is now being beaten back by the reality that there is very little to support the allegation other than the allegation.

Anybody read Ray Cippollini's editorial in daily peloton today? Anybody read anything that supports the facts on either side? Anybody read at all? Ever?

davefarb

Cippollini's a doper too.

Hambone

dude this thread's been dead for two and a half months.

It was resurected by somebody posting, "Forsake rightiousness and see the wrath of the Lord!"

Why would you encourage this. There are plenty of recent, active discussions of this topic. One recently about the Wired article which was way too nice to Dick Pound.

If you hae to resurect dead threads, make it the one where Zabriski (sp?) interviews Dick Pound. That is some funny $hit.

davefarb

It's never really dead as long as we condone cheating and lack of respect for God.

mezza

...and lack of respect for that lardy fat ass Buddha.

davefarb

Dude...you look A LOT like Johnny from The Dead Zone. It's spooky.

Daily Commute

So, when is the final arbitration supposed to be decided? I tuned out of this months ago and would like to know when to tune back in.

ggusta

There is more going on with the case recently than there has been for months, that's why.