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  1. #1
    Senior Member hocker's Avatar
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    They don't "all do it"

    I keep reading this in the forums. Sorry, but the teams noted for high standards and testing e.g. GAR, COL, CSC have not had anybody test positive yet, thus shouldn't be lumped in with others until they do.

    If someone like Cavendish or Vande Velde tests positive I would be shocked. The dopers are in the minority now. If I am wrong then I guess I am naive, but I think saying "they all do it" is an ignorant statement.

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    Yeah, probably the reason Schleck got dropped. Couldn't hang with the EPO duo.

    Of course they don't all do it. That is a moronic assumption with the testing procedures that are in place.

    Take a look at Ricco...you could tell from interviews that this dude was not a rocket scientist. I think the problem with these ignorant youths is that they get the wrong people telling them the wrong thing.

    "This is undetectable...this will be out of your system in time...and so on."

    I think the peloton is pretty much cavemen on bicycles. You have a few people that show above average intelligence but for the most part you can't trust these guys to handle themselves with any reasonable responsibility once out of sight. That is why the only way a team will survive is they adopt the culture of Garmin/Chipotle or Columbia. Where there is so much control internally that you can't afford to cheat.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hocker View Post
    I keep reading this in the forums. Sorry, but the teams noted for high standards and testing e.g. GAR, COL, CSC have not had anybody test positive yet, thus shouldn't be lumped in with others until they do.

    If someone like Cavendish or Vande Velde tests positive I would be shocked. The dopers are in the minority now. If I am wrong then I guess I am naive, but I think saying "they all do it" is an ignorant statement.
    The cynic in me can't help but notice how GAR, COL, CSC have somehow spun hiring doping consultants as assurance they are clean.

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    Senior Member Trevor98's Avatar
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    The problem with your assertion is that these guys keeping up with known doper. I agree with the presumption of innocence your post invokes but the circumstantial evidence suggests that: a) these "clean" teams have hired much better riders that can compete clean or b) these teams are playing a better game of hiding the doping. A) is the weaker explanation of these team's competitive performances so b) is assumed.

    I wish the general presumption of innocence were more prevalent but it is not.
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  5. #5
    Chasing the Peloton! dsilver668's Avatar
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    I know Garmin specificly has an open door policy. Journalists can sleep in the same room as the riders anytime during the race. To me that puts so much transperency on things. I think that the idea of transparecy and internal team testing is here to stay. Honestly I think a lot of the riders this year are clean. I am not saying all, but many aren't going to throw their careers away just for one race. You would disgrace your team and loose your job. That is to high a price to pay. Much better to burn out but be in a lone brake away for 40km to get your advertising out there. Get the praises of the announcers on who you put the hammer down and the were swallowed up by the peleton. Nothing wrong with that for sure..

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    Quote Originally Posted by hocker View Post
    I keep reading this in the forums. Sorry, but the teams noted for high standards and testing e.g. GAR, COL, CSC have not had anybody test positive yet, thus shouldn't be lumped in with others until they do.
    Of course by targeting certain riders and ignoring others, it's possible to insure those being ignored never test positive.

  7. #7
    Double Prick marin1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hocker View Post
    I keep reading this in the forums. Sorry, but the teams noted for high standards and testing e.g. GAR, COL, CSC have not had anybody test positive yet, thus shouldn't be lumped in with others until they do.

    If someone like Cavendish or Vande Velde tests positive I would be shocked. The dopers are in the minority now. If I am wrong then I guess I am naive, but I think saying "they all do it" is an ignorant statement.
    Regardless of the standards and testing of these teams the drugs are always ahead of the tests.
    You can test all you want but if some new drug comes out that current tests don't detect don't think riders won't be taking it.
    Sounds like Ricco took 3rd generation EPO and I wouldn't be suprised if someone told him it was less detectable.
    I'm not giving those teams the benefit of the doubt just because they claim to test every 14 days.
    Maybe not this tour and maybe not this year but someone off of one of those teams will test positive and it won't shock me.
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    Senior Member hocker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marin1 View Post
    Regardless of the standards and testing of these teams the drugs are always ahead of the tests.
    You can test all you want but if some new drug comes out that current tests don't detect don't think riders won't be taking it.
    Sounds like Ricco took 3rd generation EPO and I wouldn't be suprised if someone told him it was less detectable.
    I'm not giving those teams the benefit of the doubt just because they claim to test every 14 days.
    Maybe not this tour and maybe not this year but someone off of one of those teams will test positive and it won't shock me.
    Ricco also tested positive for CERA.
    "The existence of a test for CERA was not announced, but Riccò’s positive for the substance suggests that it has not escaped the attention of anti-doping officials."
    -Velnews.com

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    I also read in a news article from Reuters or some such source that the manufacturer of CERA gave the athletic testing organizations copies of the molecule prior to the market release of the drug. This way they could work up testing procedures and have them in place when the drug became available.

    That was a good idea. Stay ahead of the dopers.
    -------

    Some sort of pithy irrelevant one-liner should go here.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hocker View Post
    Ricco also tested positive for CERA.
    "The existence of a test for CERA was not announced, but Riccò’s positive for the substance suggests that it has not escaped the attention of anti-doping officials."
    -Velnews.com

    Just to eliminate potential confusion, CERA or Micera is 3rd Gen EPO.

  11. #11
    Duathlete indygreg's Avatar
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    ok . . . you do not like the 'they all do it' side. Equally as dumb is the 'they are catching all the cheaters' camp. There is no friggen way they are catching all of them. If they were catching all dopers in a given year this would stop. If you knew you had 100% chance of being caught no one would do it. There has to be many getting away with cheating in order for people to keep doing it. Be it through untestable drugs or through masking techniques, people are cheating and not getting caught.
    Run, Bike, Run.

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    Senior Member maddyfish's Avatar
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    "They don't "all do it" "

    I heard people say this in '96 and I believed it. I heard people say this in 2000, and I believed it.
    I heard it said that Landis was the first clean winner in years, I believed it. I heard this Tour was going to be clean, and I believed it. Then the two no names got caught. Then Ricco, then Piepoli.
    As far as I am concerned they are all dirty from now on. Including the guys from the clean teams.
    Not too much to say here

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    Quote Originally Posted by hocker View Post
    The dopers are in the minority now. If I am wrong then I guess I am naive, but I think saying "they all do it" is an ignorant statement.


    I do think it's a litle naive to say, as fact, that they don't all do it, or that dopers are in the minority now, in the same way Chris Boardman says Cavendish isn't on drugs. The fact is, we don't know. However, the likelihood is that, with the rewards so great and the sanctions still comparatively lenient, the vast majority, if not all, are still taking performance enhancing drugs, either those which are banned or, more likely, new variations or synthetic concoctions not yet discovered by the testers. This is a huge industry, as BALCO in the U.S. has shown, and the cheats, whether they be the chemists or the riders, will always be ahead of the testers.

  14. #14
    1. e4 Nf6 Alekhine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hocker View Post
    The dopers are in the minority now. If I am wrong then I guess I am naive, but I think saying "they all do it" is an ignorant statement.
    No offense intended: I agree that saying "they all do it" is indeed an ignorant statement, but then so is saying "the dopers are in the minority now." If you don't know, you don't know, which is I'm pretty sure the definition of ignorance.

    I prefer not to take a position on this stuff at all and just enjoy the race as much as I can. It's much more liberating, IMO. When a front-runner gets busted it's a real bummer for me, but I can't assume it means everyone in the peloton is a doper precisely because I have no idea of the veracity of that statement or any other about what goes on behind closed doors.
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    Quote Originally Posted by marin1 View Post
    Regardless of the standards and testing of these teams the drugs are always ahead of the tests.
    You can test all you want but if some new drug comes out that current tests don't detect don't think riders won't be taking it.
    The ACE program that Garmin and Columbia are using doesn't test for specific drugs. It tests for any unusal blood markers that would be a result of using PEDS. It may not be a perfect system but it's much better than trying to come up with tests after the drug is released.
    "I knew the bride...."

  16. #16
    bac
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    Quote Originally Posted by hocker View Post
    but I think saying "they all do it" is an ignorant statement.
    Of course they ALL don't dope. However, to think that the teams you listed are somehow clean relative to others - now that's being naive.

    ... Brad

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    Senior Member hocker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bac View Post
    Of course they ALL don't dope. However, to think that the teams you listed are somehow clean relative to others - now that's being naive.

    ... Brad
    The point of the post is - "they ALL don't dope" it is NOT obvious to some. Presuming innocence based on evidence, or lack thereof is not naive, it is just not being cynical. So if none of the CSC, GAR and COL guys gets popped would you still think I am naive??? Being cynical and/or skeptical does not make one wise, it just means that you have a tough time or are too lazy to sort out evidence in your head to form an informed opinion, then you use skept/cyn as a substitute for good judgement.

    Three guys have tested positive...out of like a couple hundred riders???

    I think there is basis for presuming innocense until testing positive.

  18. #18
    Solo Rider, always DFL
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    Why would someone go and ride for a team whose whole reason for being is: "we're going to constantly test you, and test you, and test you." If you can go ahead and work for Cofidis, or Saunier, or Astana, or anyone else who will only give you one out of competition test per year...

    The sponsors are going to be far more likely to line up with someone even if they don't end up winning if they have good reason to believe that they won't end up embarrassed and retiring their whole team from the tour.

    CSC already has a new sponsor, I doubt Saunier's guys will find one, and Gerolsteiner has been having difficulty getting a new backer as well, even without having had a rider popped for doping.
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  19. #19
    Senior Member collegeskier's Avatar
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    Supposedly Scott has said they will take over the main sponsorship job from Saunier.

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    Quote Originally Posted by superslomo View Post
    Why would someone go and ride for a team whose whole reason for being is: "we're going to constantly test you, and test you, and test you." If you can go ahead and work for Cofidis, or Saunier, or Astana, or anyone else who will only give you one out of competition test per year...

    The sponsors are going to be far more likely to line up with someone even if they don't end up winning if they have good reason to believe that they won't end up embarrassed and retiring their whole team from the tour.

    CSC already has a new sponsor, I doubt Saunier's guys will find one, and Gerolsteiner has been having difficulty getting a new backer as well, even without having had a rider popped for doping.
    Astana, despite their recent checkered history, is now one of the teams that constantly tests blood profiles. They use the same consultant as CSC-Saxo, I believe. Unfair to lump them in with Saunier.

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    Solo Rider, always DFL
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    I didn't know they had signed on for that deal... my apologies.

    That's right people. Somebody on the internet just admitted they were wrong.
    "Having modest aspirations RULES." --patentcad
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    Quote Originally Posted by superslomo View Post
    I didn't know they had signed on for that deal... my apologies.

    That's right people. Somebody on the internet just admitted they were wrong.

    well, ok.... just don't make it a habit.

  23. #23
    bac
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    Quote Originally Posted by hocker View Post
    So if none of the CSC, GAR and COL guys gets popped would you still think I am naive???
    Yes.

    Many riders have never had a positive test, but have been found to have doped. They have just been ahead of the doping controls. In fact, I remember a certain yellow jersey from last year's tour who didn't test positive, yet left the race in disgrace. Hmmmmm.

    Again, they ALL are not doping. However, MANY more have doped in this year's tour than have been caught. How many? Nobody knows.

    ... Brad

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    Quote Originally Posted by bac View Post
    Yes.

    Again, they ALL are not doping.

    As I said in my previous post, you cannot say, as fact, that they are not ALL doping. We simply don't know, but as I also said, with the great rewards, fairly lenient sanctions, and the cheats, be they chemists, riders or teams, always being ahead of the testers, the likelihood is the vast majority, if not all, competitors, are taking performance enhancing drugs, many of which the testers will not even be aware of.

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