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Bnjmn 07-20-08 10:23 AM

Garmin Chipotle Tactics Q
 
Why would Garmin-Chipotle send Danny Pate in the breakaway for Stage 15 instead of just sticking him at Vande Velde's side up the climbs? Would it have made a difference if Pate was at VV's side? If so, how?

Thanks.

cibai 07-20-08 10:26 AM

It wouldn't have made any difference, because Pate wouldn't have been able to climb with them. He lost something like 6minutes to C.V. on the final climb.

justinb 07-20-08 11:33 AM

I think the strategy in sending Pate up the road is to have him available if the break gets caught on Prato Nevoso. If it doesn't, you have a top 5 finish and potentially a stage win. I would expect similar tactics on Tuesday with Hesjedal (sp?) or Millar trying to get in a break.

I didn't see the early parts of the stage, but sometimes you don't get to choose which rider you put in the break. You have various teammates try an attack, and see which one finally sticks.

skinny 07-20-08 02:05 PM

Also having a rider in the break means your team doesn't have to take responsibility for chasing down the break which means your team gets a break except for the rider in the break.

collegeskier 07-20-08 02:34 PM

If you listen to the CV interview before the stage. He knew CSC was going to attack but they were looking for a rider or two up the road to help out when the break gets caught.

Also if the attacks had come on the HC climb and the break had made it over, I better Danny Pate would have been sitting up once they got to the flat roads hope in to help out Vande Velde. It is actually a pretty common tactic. I have seen Jens Voigt come to a complete stop to wait for the team leader when he was in a break.

AZ_Kurt 07-20-08 07:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by justinb (Post 7097317)
I think the strategy in sending Pate up the road is to have him available if the break gets caught on Prato Nevoso. If it doesn't, you have a top 5 finish and potentially a stage win. I would expect similar tactics on Tuesday with Hesjedal (sp?) or Millar trying to get in a break.

I didn't see the early parts of the stage, but sometimes you don't get to choose which rider you put in the break. You have various teammates try an attack, and see which one finally sticks.

Yeah, this is a good point that gets lost on a lot of people. Versus showing the coverage from the start really puts this in a better light. There are so many breaks that don't make it that you just have to keep flinging people at it until one sticks. There is a lot more luck in establishing a break than people think. And once you are there, you are there for good.

Pate being in the break didn't matter. Silence Lotto on the front made no sense to me. i would have saved Popo and the rest for the climbs.

Allen H 07-21-08 10:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AZ_Kurt (Post 7099704)
Yeah, this is a good point that gets lost on a lot of people. Versus showing the coverage from the start really puts this in a better light. There are so many breaks that don't make it that you just have to keep flinging people at it until one sticks. There is a lot more luck in establishing a break than people think. And once you are there, you are there for good.

Pate being in the break didn't matter. Silence Lotto on the front made no sense to me. i would have saved Popo and the rest for the climbs.

That's why a lot of commentators have suggested Evans would have been better off to give up the yellow and let another team defend the jersey. His team is much too weak to set the pace on these mountain stages, anyway. (It's interesting how most teams seem hellbent to defend the jersey, even when tactically they'd be better off not to.)

collegeskier 07-21-08 01:48 PM

The exposure for having the yellow jersey for another day is huge and that is what the sponsor is paying for. Sure they want you to win the whole thing, but if you cannot control keep the jersey are you going to be able to get it back?

Also if Silence Lotto had no been willing to go and set tempo at the front, it would be seen as weakness and CSC would have taken that chance to blow apart the field on the first climb leaving Evans alone for a long way up the valley. Garmin/Chipote thought this was going to happen and this is exactly why Danny Pate went in the break, to have help on the other side of the HC.

AZ_Kurt 07-21-08 01:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by collegeskier (Post 7104456)
The exposure for having the yellow jersey for another day is huge and that is what the sponsor is paying for. Sure they want you to win the whole thing, but if you cannot control keep the jersey are you going to be able to get it back?

Also if Silence Lotto had no been willing to go and set tempo at the front, it would be seen as weakness and CSC would have taken that chance to blow apart the field on the first climb leaving Evans alone for a long way up the valley. Garmin/Chipote thought this was going to happen and this is exactly why Danny Pate went in the break, to have help on the other side of the HC.

I dunno... I still think this is a 3 horse race. i think Evans, Menchov, and VandeVelde merely need to mark the moves of CSC and then let the TT take care of itself. VV has done just fine alone. Sastre is Sastre. he will crater. Menchov is my pick to win this thing. If he doesn't fall yesterday he is in yellow.

Allen H 07-21-08 02:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AZ_Kurt (Post 7104521)
I dunno... I still think this is a 3 horse race. i think Evans, Menchov, and VandeVelde merely need to mark the moves of CSC and then let the TT take care of itself. VV has done just fine alone. Sastre is Sastre. he will crater. Menchov is my pick to win this thing. If he doesn't fall yesterday he is in yellow.

I agree; he sure looked like his attack was going to put enough time into all the GC contenders to net him the yellow, if he hadn't fallen.

marin1 07-21-08 02:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AZ_Kurt (Post 7104521)
I dunno... I still think this is a 3 horse race. i think Evans, Menchov, and VandeVelde merely need to mark the moves of CSC and then let the TT take care of itself. VV has done just fine alone. Sastre is Sastre. he will crater. Menchov is my pick to win this thing. If he doesn't fall yesterday he is in yellow.

I agree

justinb 07-21-08 02:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AZ_Kurt (Post 7104521)
I dunno... I still think this is a 3 horse race. i think Evans, Menchov, and VandeVelde merely need to mark the moves of CSC and then let the TT take care of itself. VV has done just fine alone. Sastre is Sastre. he will crater. Menchov is my pick to win this thing. If he doesn't fall yesterday he is in yellow.


Furthermore, I would say that Evans/VV need to worry about marking Menchov, and not as much about the inevitable attacks from the skinny kids. Sastre/Shleck/Kohl can be allowed a minute or two, and still be brought back on Saturday.

collegeskier 07-21-08 03:17 PM

I agree this is most likely how it will go. But if CSC had taken out a minute or more on each of these Alps stages that could have caused serious problems. TT 4 minutes better then a guy in the yellow jersey is a big challenge (Remember Rasmussen, doper or not he TTed way better once he was a GC contention). I was just saying why Silence-Lotto set the pace, to avoid the attacks on that first climb. If you look like you can control it, they will let you. If you look like you cannot they will attack you. That would be a long way to go unsupported by a teammate too. Leaves a lot of risk too, if you have a mechanical or a crash. Sure they are not going to attack you if you flat, but once you chase back on you bet they will be all over you.


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