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-   -   Lotto is screwing Cadel (http://www.bikeforums.net/professional-cycling-fans/444645-lotto-screwing-cadel.html)

Racer Ex 07-22-08 09:11 PM

Lotto is screwing Cadel
 
Tactical idiots. Popovich finally has good legs and is in a position to help Cadel, who's been under relentless attack and isolated for all the climbs, and instead of having Pupu drop back to help Evans Lotto sends him up the road to burn matches trying for a stage win before the hardest stage of the Tour, where Evans having a teammate might well be the difference between winning or losing the whole thing.

If this was Marc Sergeant's call he should be fired. Period.

skinny 07-22-08 09:31 PM

...and what exactly was popovych going to do? help evans who lost only 7 seconds on the day? he wasn't getting dropped like VDV. And having a rider like popovych away always takes pressure off the team. Plus they had a chance to win the stage. If Popovych wouldn't have attacked from a mile out, they may have won the stage. So fire the team manager when arguably the best time trialist in the tour only lost 7 secs on a stage with the highest climb the tour has ever gone over?...and another rider was in postion to win the stage? It looks to me like he may have managed his resources quite well. I think Cadel is in control of the situation. No one is riding away from him and he's limiting the time gaps. He is doing everything he needs to do to set himself up for victory.

ettsn 07-22-08 09:40 PM

For what it's worth VDV wrecked, not dropped.

skinny 07-22-08 09:44 PM

vdv was dropped on the final climb and wrecked trying to catch the leaders.

roadgator 07-22-08 09:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by skinny (Post 7114616)
...and what exactly was popovych going to do? help evans who lost only 7 seconds on the day? he wasn't getting dropped like VDV. And having a rider like popovych away always takes pressure off the team. Plus they had a chance to win the stage. If Popovych wouldn't have attacked from a mile out, they may have won the stage. So fire the team manager when arguably the best time trialist in the tour only lost 7 secs on a stage with the highest climb the tour has ever gone over?...and another rider was in postion to win the stage? It looks to me like he may have managed his resources quite well. I think Cadel is in control of the situation. No one is riding away from him and he's limiting the time gaps. He is doing everything he needs to do to set himself up for victory.

Come on, we all know Evans wont go anywhere without a wheel to follow. Other teams wont be as kind to let him sit on as a team mate would have been. So he didn't get put into much difficulty today, but the director couldn't have predicted that. after the way CSC isolated him on Sunday, almost did today, and are likely to do tomorrow, not doing whatever it takes to keep a man with Evans is ludicrous.

classic1 07-22-08 10:00 PM

Vandevelde was dropped well before the top of the climb.

classic1 07-22-08 10:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by roadgator (Post 7114782)
Come on, we all know Evans wont go anywhere without a wheel to follow. Other teams wont be as kind to let him sit on as a team mate would have been. So he didn't get put into much difficulty today, but the director couldn't have predicted that. after the way CSC isolated him on Monday, almost did today, and are likely to do tomorrow, not doing whatever it takes to keep a man with Evans is ludicrous.


Popoyvitch is not capable of following the main contenders. Sending him with the break was the logical, obvious and correct thing to do. If Evans was in trouble they could have got Popo to drop back.

FWIW, Evans never looked in difficulty on the climb of the Bonette-Restefond and did nearly all the driving of the group from the top of the mountain to the finish (admittedly downhill) to keep Menchov off the back.

Racer Ex 07-22-08 10:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by skinny (Post 7114616)
having a rider like popovych away always takes pressure off the team.

You're joking, right? If Evans is attacked they can just sit and go.."well we're not chasing, Popo is up the road" This was not a sprinters stage.

The only reason you send a guy up the road like that if you have a shot at yellow is to drop him back at some point.

Quote:

Originally Posted by skinny (Post 7114616)
...and what exactly was popovych going to do?

Other than give him a wheel to follow on long a headwind climb? Other than give him a bike/wheel/bottle if he needs one? If Evans crashes or flats, is Popyvich going to turn around and ride back up the mountain?

Other than perhaps attack themselves?

Other than NOT WASTE ENERGY THAT SHOULD BE SAVED TO HELP CADEL TOMMOROW ON THE HARDEST STAGE OF THE TOUR?

Take out the DVD and put in this year's tour. He's under constant attack and losing time because of it. He lost yellow because he had to respond to every attack.

They risk the whole thing for a stage win? They aren't AG2R. They are eight seconds out of yellow. Every resource should be directed toward a win in Paris. You simply don't bet it all on the time trial unless you don't have any other resource. They did, and they wasted it.

He's eight seconds out of yellow. I recall another Tour that was decided by that margain.

robow 07-22-08 10:23 PM

Evans is pulling an Indurain, staying in touch on the mountains and will blow the climbers away in the TT. Unless something happens, I think all is going to plan. But yea, it would be nice to see him attack once in the mountains, probably not going to happen though.

Racer Ex 07-22-08 10:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by classic1 (Post 7114825)
Popoyvitch is not capable of following the main contenders. Sending him with the break was the logical, obvious and correct thing to do. If Evans was in trouble they could have got Popo to drop back.

If nothing else he should have been waiting for him at the summit of the last climb.

Pedaleur 07-22-08 10:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Racer Ex (Post 7114930)
If nothing else he should have been waiting for him at the summit of the last climb.

I don't know much about tactics, but this is probably why they sent him up. Then when Evans wasn't in any difficulty, they let him go for the win.

Given what's happened so far, Popo would _not_ have been with the yellow jersey group at the top of the second climb without the head start.

I agree with the burning matches, though. He's going to be one tired puppy today.

Sci-Fi 07-22-08 10:57 PM

Let's see what happens today. Will be interesting to see who cracks or makes up time or even gets a big lead in the GC. Have to make Evans pay now, assuming his TT will outclass most of the GC contenders. Expect to see a lot of attacks.

smoke 07-22-08 11:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pedaleur (Post 7115065)
I don't know much about tactics, but this is probably why they sent him up. Then when Evans wasn't in any difficulty, they let him go for the win.

Given what's happened so far, Popo would _not_ have been with the yellow jersey group at the top of the second climb without the head start.

I agree with the burning matches, though. He's going to be one tired puppy today.

i can't believe this, Rx. what's the matter with you? what are you screaming about? you kill every human in the tri-state area, and then talk like you know what you're talking about? who do you think you are?

i think you make a good point, but i think the above is true, also. evans never looked in need of popo today. and while you want to protect cadel for the hard days, you want to protect the guys working for him on those days, too. don't kill popo today if evans can handle today on his own. to hell with today's stage win; save popo today so he can die for his leader tomorrow

cjbruin 07-23-08 01:20 AM

It's always amusing to me to read everyone's armchair DS comments. Every year several people second guess what is going on during the race but most have no clue.

Pedaleur 07-23-08 01:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cjbruin (Post 7115469)
It's always amusing to me to read everyone's armchair DS comments. Every year several people second guess what is going on during the race but most have no clue.

RacerEx probably has more clue than most. The others don't hang out here. Though roadwarrior often drops by to mock us.

I gladly plea idiocy. But I'm curious.

biffstephens 07-23-08 01:36 AM

Cadel "let" the jersey go....he will get it back in the TT is it is remotely close at that point.....

Today will be the day for sure....if you were to watch one day of the Tour it would be today....

I personally think Cadel let it go...right now he would win the tour if a TT was in the way....he knows it...

roadwarrior 07-23-08 03:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by robow (Post 7114919)
Evans is pulling an Indurain, staying in touch on the mountains and will blow the climbers away in the TT. Unless something happens, I think all is going to plan. But yea, it would be nice to see him attack once in the mountains, probably not going to happen though.

Congratulations. One person who understands what's going on.

Fact is that if Evans can keep it to a minute or less, unless he has a horrible day in the time trial he should be good to go. The experts think he could be as much as 90 seconds in arrears and still have enough cushion to win the Tour. I doubt that will happen.

Evans has no interest in the leader's jersey right now. He will in the TT.

Evans has no reason to attack and losing the leader's jersey a couple days back was a good thing.

CSC did a ton of work yesterday. And they will have to do a ton of work today.

And Evans can just sit there. It's a great position to be in.

roadwarrior 07-23-08 03:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Racer Ex (Post 7114907)
You're joking, right? If Evans is attacked they can just sit and go.."well we're not chasing, Popo is up the road" This was not a sprinters stage.

The only reason you send a guy up the road like that if you have a shot at yellow is to drop him back at some point.



Other than give him a wheel to follow on long a headwind climb? Other than give him a bike/wheel/bottle if he needs one? If Evans crashes or flats, is Popyvich going to turn around and ride back up the mountain?

Other than perhaps attack themselves?

Other than NOT WASTE ENERGY THAT SHOULD BE SAVED TO HELP CADEL TOMMOROW ON THE HARDEST STAGE OF THE TOUR?

Take out the DVD and put in this year's tour. He's under constant attack and losing time because of it. He lost yellow because he had to respond to every attack.

They risk the whole thing for a stage win? They aren't AG2R. They are eight seconds out of yellow. Every resource should be directed toward a win in Paris. You simply don't bet it all on the time trial unless you don't have any other resource. They did, and they wasted it.

He's eight seconds out of yellow. I recall another Tour that was decided by that margain.

Wrong.

Think big picture. Evans has time in the bank due to his time trialing ability. These stages are for him to maintain contact. Yesterday, CSC tried to drop him, or just hurt him. He was right there. Accelerations, whatever, he sat there. He does not need to do anything other than what he is doing.

He's got the time trial. He's better than Schleck. He's probably got a minute to 90 seconds to play with. If he's still only 8 seconds out, unless he has a terrible day in the TT, he wins the Tour. Evans looked good to me the whole stage. I don't think they hurt him much.

Grand tour racing is complicated. And every resource is being directed towards the win in Paris. One must know when to play one's cards.

roadwarrior 07-23-08 04:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cjbruin (Post 7115469)
It's always amusing to me to read everyone's armchair DS comments. Every year several people second guess what is going on during the race but most have no clue.

It's not any worse than any other sport. The difference is that everyone knows something about football and they can get a lot of information from a lot of sources. This, the Tour, is something most people don't get so anyone with an ounce of knowledge sounds REAL knowledgable around the watercooler at work.

It seems that some try to equate strategy in racing like this to their experiences, maybe, racing. The only thing they have in common is a bike.

roadwarrior 07-23-08 04:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pedaleur (Post 7115483)
RacerEx probably has more clue than most. The others don't hang out here. Though roadwarrior often drops by to mock us.

Just trying to help. It helps to have done, at least, week long stage racing.

Botto gets it too...

roadwarrior 07-23-08 04:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by biffstephens (Post 7115495)
Cadel "let" the jersey go....he will get it back in the TT is it is remotely close at that point.....

Today will be the day for sure....if you were to watch one day of the Tour it would be today....

I personally think Cadel let it go...right now he would win the tour if a TT was in the way....he knows it...

Yes.

Of the top GC guys, the two best time trialists are Evans and Menchov.

Too bad Menchov didn't want any part of the descent yesterday. I would have found that TT duel to be pretty exciting. Unless Menchov does something today, I don't think it will matter.

Pedaleur 07-23-08 04:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by roadwarrior (Post 7115645)
Botto gets it too...

Heh. It wasn't a comprehensive list...

Pedaleur 07-23-08 04:35 AM

PS. To toot my own horn, I'm not totally off the mark:

Popovych fights back from bad form

roadwarrior 07-23-08 04:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pedaleur (Post 7115680)
PS. To toot my own horn, I'm not totally off the mark:

Popovych fights back from bad form

Good...

Of course strategy is fine, but it's all incumbent on Evans doing well today.

skinny 07-23-08 06:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Racer Ex (Post 7114907)
The only reason you send a guy up the road like that if you have a shot at yellow is to drop him back at some point.

I know you're new to this, but this shows an extremely shallow grasp of racing tactics. And the strategy of sending a rider up the road to drop him back can easily backfire. The rider up the road has to work harder in the smaller group and the risk is high that when he does get back to his leader he will have little to offer. Look at Arveson yesterday. He dropped back to help Schleck and was only able to last with Schleck's group for 5k, then it was, " oops, I've been working hard in a break all day and now I'm cooked, so bye-bye out the back door." Barney stated early in the Tour that Schleck or Sastre needed a 3 minute gap on Cadel before the TT to assure victory. They haven't shown thay can gap him in more than 2 weeks of racing despite constant attacking and aggressive riding. I suspect CSC may be more worn out than Cadel is from all their acrobatics. We will see, then you can fire whomever you want.


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