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  1. #1
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    Dont Forget CSC Test

    Hopefully they come up clean for the sake of the sport but don't forget that CSC got hit with the drug test and the results aren't in yet

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    Senior Member maddyfish's Avatar
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    Only the dumb get caught.
    Not too much to say here

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    Chasing the Peloton! dsilver668's Avatar
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    This is true and I have a feeling they will. It would be a sad sad day to have them stripped of the title. They all road very well, so we will see...

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    Have you done any research on the internal anti Doping program they are using? I hope you do realize how it works and how difficult it would be to get away with doping. also if you do the math and the VAM numbers they are not really that impressive. this tour was very slow when compared to those of the past 10 years.

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    Quote Originally Posted by vic32amg View Post
    Have you done any research on the internal anti Doping program they are using? I hope you do realize how it works and how difficult it would be to get away with doping. also if you do the math and the VAM numbers they are not really that impressive. this tour was very slow when compared to those of the past 10 years.
    Yeah, I don't think they were lighting up the roads this year...prolly cause for the most part they were clean.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jfaul4820 View Post
    Hopefully they come up clean for the sake of the sport but don't forget that CSC got hit with the drug test and the results aren't in yet
    Of course CSC-SB riders got tested a lot and not surprisingly so did Evans, Kohl etc. The AFLD strategy with targeted testing of anybody that does well is also a much better strategy than the normal UCI strategy of just testing the winner and some random dude in the peleton.

    I think it is pretty clear that doping was less rampant this year, so UCI, ASO+RCS, WADA and all the teams better get together and start some effective all-year testing to keep it that way.

    --
    Regards
    Last edited by interested; 07-26-08 at 07:43 PM. Reason: Spelling

  7. #7
    Stop It! Matt888's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by vic32amg View Post
    Have you done any research on the internal anti Doping program they are using? I hope you do realize how it works and how difficult it would be to get away with doping. also if you do the math and the VAM numbers they are not really that impressive. this tour was very slow when compared to those of the past 10 years.
    Its nice to see someone pays attention. Looks bad for the Armstrongs and Ulrichs of the world though, maybe they'll do a Riis and just fess up one day. I doubt it though.

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    Professional Fuss-Budget Bacciagalupe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by interested View Post
    The AFLD strategy with targeted testing of anybody that does well is also a much better strategy than the normal UCI strategy of just testing the winner and some random dude in the peleton.
    Actually, their strategy was to test everyone at the start, target suspicious riders, and in general do more testing than before. They were also much stricter about escorting riders to the controls.

    It also helped that WADA worked with Roche to put a detectable molecule into CERA, which made it rather easy to find anyone taking it....

  9. #9
    Senior Member rankin116's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bacciagalupe View Post
    It also helped that WADA worked with Roche to put a detectable molecule into CERA, which made it rather easy to find anyone taking it....
    That didn't happen. There is no extra molecule added. They just worked with WADA to develop a test.

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    Descends Like Avalanche HigherGround's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Matt888 View Post
    Its nice to see someone pays attention. Looks bad for the Armstrongs and Ulrichs of the world though, maybe they'll do a Riis and just fess up one day. I doubt it though.
    Unfortunately Riis didn't confess until he was pressured by the confessions of numerous former teammates.
    The rider in my avatar is David Etxebarria, not me.

  11. #11
    Since Ever Since Devil's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by vic32amg View Post
    Have you done any research on the internal anti Doping program they are using? I hope you do realize how it works and how difficult it would be to get away with doping. also if you do the math and the VAM numbers they are not really that impressive. this tour was very slow when compared to those of the past 10 years.
    This Tour was not very slow compared to those of the past ten years. By my calculation, Sastre won with a speed just over 40km/h. That's faster than every year except for 2003 - 2006, and about the same as 1999. I could be wrong, though, so someone should make the calculation themselves and see what's to be found.

  12. #12
    Glorified Blender mikearena's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Devil View Post
    This Tour was not very slow compared to those of the past ten years. By my calculation, Sastre won with a speed just over 40km/h. That's faster than every year except for 2003 - 2006, and about the same as 1999. I could be wrong, though, so someone should make the calculation themselves and see what's to be found.
    But all on different routes... so a comparison of average speeds means basically nothing.

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    Since Ever Since Devil's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikearena View Post
    But all on different routes... so a comparison of average speeds means basically nothing.
    No, not basically nothing. The Tour does not change radically from year to year, and I think a compiling of aggregate climbing kilometers, TT kilometers, etc. of each Tour in the last 18 years would look remarkably similar -- not identical, but similar enough that a comparison of average speed is justified. Technological progression must also be taken into account before one speaks of doping in this context.

  14. #14
    Chunky Programmer cuski's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by vic32amg View Post
    Have you done any research on the internal anti Doping program they are using? I hope you do realize how it works and how difficult it would be to get away with doping. also if you do the math and the VAM numbers they are not really that impressive. this tour was very slow when compared to those of the past 10 years.
    "Very" slow?! Not sure where Alekhine gets his data from, but here's something to ponder:

    Worst Tour Ever?
    Burn the incline - V5

  15. #15
    winning magazine junkie lofter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by vic32amg View Post
    Have you done any research on the internal anti Doping program they are using? I hope you do realize how it works and how difficult it would be to get away with doping. also if you do the math and the VAM numbers they are not really that impressive. this tour was very slow when compared to those of the past 10 years.

    hmmm just like the one astana does, and yet no invite for them.too bad tho , it would have been cool to watch the great powerful csc battle a team equally as strong or stronger.
    "dont worry charlie ,ive got an angle!!"

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by vic32amg View Post
    Have you done any research on the internal anti Doping program they are using? I hope you do realize how it works and how difficult it would be to get away with doping. also if you do the math and the VAM numbers they are not really that impressive. this tour was very slow when compared to those of the past 10 years.
    I just ran numbers and I get Sastre's total average speed of 25.167 mph !!!!

    This is faster that Lance's 1999 record of 25.026 mph and would be a new record if I have done my numbers correctly. Someone please check and try to verify my numbers. I have only used the times and distances of each stage posted on VeloNews so my distances may not be official. Also, Lance's 1999 record was from an internet site and may not be accurate. Other years may be faster as this site may not have been updated and is not official.

    http://studenttravel.about.com/od/to...ournumbers.htm

    Edit: After some searching I found some other information. 2008 is fifth fastest tour in history. Information on that website is out of date.
    Last edited by Hezz; 07-29-08 at 08:34 PM.

  17. #17
    Chasing the Peloton! dsilver668's Avatar
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    Well Sastra had an awesome run period. He didn't run a full season like Cadel, and basically set out to win the tour. That was his season goal. He came prepaird and did well. CSC I beleive uses ACE, or at least something similar on their team. I knkow columbia and Garmin use ACE, and Rock Racing uses another company founded by one of the origional doctors who founded ACE. If they are doing their jobs internally then it is pretty hard to beat. If the French testing group comes back with a different opinion then the independant group can show a history to either support or help prove the A and B test findings. I am sure CSC will be clean.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by dsilver668 View Post
    ... I am sure CSC will be clean.
    I am sure CSC will test negative. It's not quite the same thing. Still, it was a great tour from my perspective, even if they are still on the sauce...(which I'm not saying they are)

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bacciagalupe View Post
    Actually, their strategy was to test everyone at the start, target suspicious riders, and in general do more testing than before. They were also much stricter about escorting riders to the controls.
    AFAIK, they only tested all the riders once and that was before the race. The "letters" to some riders about seeing a doctor because of their abnormal blood values was made on basis of that test. Anyway, as you say, they tested more than usual, and that is a good thing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bacciagalupe View Post
    It also helped that WADA worked with Roche to put a detectable molecule into CERA, which made it rather easy to find anyone taking it....
    There were no "tracer" molecule. It was a misunderstanding. It was an a molecule that was part of the active ingredients of the medicine that remains in the body for a long time that Roche helped developing tests against. (MI)CERA still seems hard to detect though; As Ricco just said to the press, then he was doped and tested on 10 stages but only two of his tests came back positive.

    --
    Regards

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by HigherGround View Post
    Unfortunately Riis didn't confess until he was pressured by the confessions of numerous former teammates.
    Riis didn't confess because he cracked under peer pressure. Lots of riders under even more pressure have remained silent or still lie about using dope.
    IMHO Riis confessed because he didn't want to live the rest of his life on a lie, why spend energy denying something that didn't mean that much to him anymore. Riis wasn't an ex-rider desperate to live on his past glories, but a team owner and a DS.
    One some level he wasn't smart to confess since all everybody remembers are the "certified" admitted doper while totally ignorant about all the lying dopers in the teams, both riders, DS's, team owners or doctors.
    On a more personale level he was smart to confess. Think about being Landis or Armstrong and still lie about how clean they where (actually the only clean riders in top 10), how everything is a french conspiracy against them, yada yada yada.

    --
    Regards

  21. #21
    Senior Member Cateye's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Matt888 View Post
    Its nice to see someone pays attention. Looks bad for the Armstrongs and Ulrichs of the world though, maybe they'll do a Riis and just fess up one day. I doubt it though.
    Prove it.

    Stating personal observations about doping is dumb. The “just because he did well on a stage so he must have doped” proves nothing.

    Riccò’s winning margin over all the major contenders at Bagnerres de Bigorre was 1 minute 17 seconds. By comparison Sastre’s margin of victory on L’Alpe d’Huez was more than 2 minutes over all the other GC contenders. If any of these result sticks out like a sore thumb it has to be this one. Prior to his victory on 23 July Sastre had won just 6 races in an 11 year career and the KOM classification in the 2000 Vuelta.

    Saying anybody doped with out empirical evidence is a waste of time. It is like saying that Tiger Woods must dope because he wins a lot. Tom Brady must have doped because he broke the NFL passing touchdown record blah… blah…. blah. All the Ricco case really proves is that the lab system is broken.
    Last edited by Cateye; 08-08-08 at 10:44 AM.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by interested View Post
    Riis didn't confess because he cracked under peer pressure. Lots of riders under even more pressure have remained silent or still lie about using dope.
    IMHO Riis confessed because he didn't want to live the rest of his life on a lie, why spend energy denying something that didn't mean that much to him anymore. Riis wasn't an ex-rider desperate to live on his past glories, but a team owner and a DS.
    One some level he wasn't smart to confess since all everybody remembers are the "certified" admitted doper while totally ignorant about all the lying dopers in the teams, both riders, DS's, team owners or doctors.
    On a more personale level he was smart to confess. Think about being Landis or Armstrong and still lie about how clean they where (actually the only clean riders in top 10), how everything is a french conspiracy against them, yada yada yada.

    --
    Regards
    Nåååå, Riis fessed up because his position became untenable with all of the accusations surrounding him, and the last thing he wanted was a media frenzy while he was trying to run CSC. Had he continued to fight it, he risked taking CSC down with him.

    "I did it. I've moved on. Now you move on, too," was his message.

    Mvh

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by lofter View Post
    hmmm just like the one astana does, and yet no invite for them.too bad tho , it would have been cool to watch the great powerful csc battle a team equally as strong or stronger.
    From what I've read/heard the whole Astana thing was a travesty.
    Riding the Ohio MS Central Ohio Challenge tour, July 12th.

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    Senior Member erader's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by interested View Post
    Of course CSC-SB riders got tested a lot and not surprisingly so did Evans, Kohl etc. The AFLD strategy with targeted testing of anybody that does well is also a much better strategy than the normal UCI strategy of just testing the winner and some random dude in the peleton.

    I think it is pretty clear that doping was less rampant this year, so UCI, ASO+RCS, WADA and all the teams better get together and start some effective all-year testing to keep it that way.

    --
    Regards
    ah the naivete is just stunning.....

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    Even if the GC riders were slower this year on the climbs and TTs, it's not going to make a dent into the average speed. The overall average speed is mostly determined by the route, the weather, and how fast the domestiques feel like riding on flat stages. Seeing as the pool of pro cyclists, like most pro sports, is always on the increase, it's fair to say that as the years go on the overall talent in the peloton, and thus the average speed, is going to increase. Doping or no doping.

    What would be interesting is getting a comparison of times on climbs. l'Alpe d'Huez in particular. Sastre "beating everyone" by 2 minutes doesn't necessarily mean anything. The only rider who chased him the whole climb was Evans, so if you don't calculate how long it took to actually climb the mountain, all you're doing is comparing two riders performances, rather than all the GC riders.

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