Cycling and bicycle discussion forums. 
   Click here to join our community Log in to access your Control Panel  


Go Back   > >

Professional Cycling For the Fans Follow the Tour de France,the Giro de Italia, the Spring Classics, or other professional cycling races? Here's your home...

User Tag List

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 07-26-08, 03:40 PM   #1
SSP
Software for Cyclists
Thread Starter
 
SSP's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Redding, California
Bikes: Trek 5200, Specialized MTB
Posts: 4,618
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Cadel's Wimphy Wheel?

It looks like Cadel was running the equivalent of a Zipp 404 on his front wheel in today's TT, while other riders were on more aerodynamic rims.

Any idea why he would choose such a low profile front wheel for the long TT? I would have expected him to be running something more like a Zipp 808 on the front. Given his performance, perhaps he should have been...

FWIW, Sastre's front wheel looked more like an 808, in terms of rim depth.
SSP is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-26-08, 03:53 PM   #2
BananaTugger
CPM M4
 
BananaTugger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: The West Side (Of Rochester, NY).
Bikes: Light.
Posts: 4,930
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by SSP View Post
It looks like Cadel was running the equivalent of a Zipp 404 on his front wheel in today's TT, while other riders were on more aerodynamic rims.

Any idea why he would choose such a low profile front wheel for the long TT? I would have expected him to be running something more like a Zipp 808 on the front. Given his performance, perhaps he should have been...

FWIW, Sastre's front wheel looked more like an 808, in terms of rim depth.
Sastre was on a Zipp 1080 with the Sub-9 Disk.

Cadel was on a Campagnolo Bora with some disk.

The Zipp 1080 is 108mm deep, the Bora is only 50mm.

Campagnolo doesn't make any wheels deeper than 50mm.
__________________
Ten tenths.

Last edited by BananaTugger; 07-26-08 at 04:00 PM.
BananaTugger is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-26-08, 04:01 PM   #3
roadgator
raodmaster shaman
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: G-ville
Bikes:
Posts: 1,431
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
sucks for Evans to be stuck with sub-par equipment.
roadgator is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-26-08, 04:03 PM   #4
SSP
Software for Cyclists
Thread Starter
 
SSP's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Redding, California
Bikes: Trek 5200, Specialized MTB
Posts: 4,618
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Interesting...I noticed that VandeVelde was also running a deeply aero front wheel (808 or 1080).

Makes you wonder about Cadel's choice of equipment. It's my understanding that front wheel aerodynamics are hugely important, and given how poorly he did perhaps his front wheel was a contributing factor.



Also, did anyone else notice a strange "hump" on VandeVelde's back? Any idea what that was?


And Menchov's number wasn't glued on? I couldn't tell if it was pinned, but it was definitely billowing out. WTF??

Last edited by SSP; 07-26-08 at 04:13 PM.
SSP is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-26-08, 04:06 PM   #5
AZ_Kurt
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Bikes:
Posts: 35
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by SSP View Post
Interesting...I noticed that VandeVelde was also running a deeply aero front wheel (808 or 1080).

Makes you wonder about Cadel's choice of equipment. It's my understanding that front wheel aerodynamics are hugely important, and given how poorly he did perhaps his front wheel was a contributing factor.



Also, did anyone else notice a strange "hump" on VandeVelde's back? Any idea what that was?
Yeah, i saw that. I think it is something inserted in the skin suit to smooth air flow over his back.

Either that or the dude is a Stegasaurus.
AZ_Kurt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-26-08, 04:06 PM   #6
BananaTugger
CPM M4
 
BananaTugger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: The West Side (Of Rochester, NY).
Bikes: Light.
Posts: 4,930
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by SSP View Post
Interesting...I noticed that VandeVelde was also running a deeply aero front wheel (808 or 1080).

Makes you wonder about Cadel's choice of equipment. It's my understanding that front wheel aerodynamics are hugely important, and given how poorly he did perhaps his front wheel was a contributing factor.



Also, did anyone else notice a strange "hump" on VandeVelde's back? Any idea what that was?
Colombia is sponsored by Shimano, but they have been sneaking team branded Lightweight Obermayers and Zipp 808's onto the bikes since 2007 for critical stages.

As for aerodynamics: The 1080 that Sastre was using is the most aero non-disk in production right now.

The Bora that Evans was riding, isn't.
__________________
Ten tenths.
BananaTugger is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-26-08, 06:52 PM   #7
jaxgtr
Senior Member
 
jaxgtr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Jacksonville, FL
Bikes: Trek ALR 6, Trek CrossRip, Trek X-Caliber 8
Posts: 4,354
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
An aero wheel would not have made up 1:34. He sucked today and blew his shot.
__________________
Brian | 2015 Trek Emonda ALR 6 | 2015 Trek X-Caliber 8 | 2014 Trek CrossRip Comp
Quote:
Originally Posted by AEO View Post
you should learn to embrace change, and mock it's failings every step of the way.
jaxgtr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-26-08, 06:56 PM   #8
TMB
Permanent Refugee .......
 
TMB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Okanagan Valley, BC.
Bikes: Steel
Posts: 1,256
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by AZ_Kurt View Post
Yeah, i saw that. I think it is something inserted in the skin suit to smooth air flow over his back.

Either that or the dude is a Stegasaurus.

He had a CamelBack on.

You could see him using the hose to drink
TMB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-26-08, 06:59 PM   #9
robema
Senior Member
 
robema's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: wales
Bikes: racer,mountain
Posts: 146
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Sastre was on a Zipp 1080 with the Sub-9 Disk.

Cadel was on a Campagnolo Bora with some disk.

The Zipp 1080 is 108mm deep, the Bora is only 50mm.

Campagnolo doesn't make any wheels deeper than 50mm
Quote:
Yeah, i saw that. I think it is something inserted in the skin suit to smooth air flow over his back.

Either that or the dude is a Stegasaurus.
Quote:
the further you get from your bike, the dumber you'll look in lycra
Quote:
Thanks to all of those who joined us for a fantastic Tour so far. Special thanks to those who contributed to our cause.
and that is why i love this forum
robema is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-27-08, 10:25 AM   #10
SSP
Software for Cyclists
Thread Starter
 
SSP's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Redding, California
Bikes: Trek 5200, Specialized MTB
Posts: 4,618
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by jaxgtr View Post
An aero wheel would not have made up 1:34. He sucked today and blew his shot.
Hmmmm....Evans finished down by only 58 seconds.

You've got to wonder if something like a 1080 rim might have allowed him to save 1 second per kilometer - that would have been enough for yellow. Remember, poor Evans had to ride with sub-par gear in TWO TT's.
SSP is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-27-08, 01:05 PM   #11
dutret
Banned
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: GA
Bikes:
Posts: 5,317
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by SSP View Post
Hmmmm....Evans finished down by only 58 seconds.

You've got to wonder if something like a 1080 rim might have allowed him to save 1 second per kilometer - that would have been enough for yellow. Remember, poor Evans had to ride with sub-par gear in TWO TT's.
http://www.zipp.com/Portals/0/Techno...dgeFlyer_2.pdf

unlikely remember that this test is probably done with conditions almost ideal for the 1080/sub9 combo.
dutret is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-27-08, 07:29 PM   #12
z415
Senior Member
 
z415's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Gainesville/Tampa, FL
Bikes: Trek 1000, two mtbs and working on a fixie for commuting.
Posts: 2,343
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by waytoomanybikes View Post
He had a CamelBack on.

You could see him using the hose to drink
I saw a Ventura/Andreu/one of the other guys do a thing on Garmin-Chipotle's team gear and they have a pocket in the back of their jerseys/skinsuits for a ice pack to keep them cool. Apparently they pop the pack in and then toss the whole outfit in giant coolers filled with ice that they put on right before they ride.

Or it could be a Camelbak.
z415 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-27-08, 09:53 PM   #13
Bike4More
Fixed Commuter
 
Bike4More's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Fresno
Bikes: Roads Moutains Fixed Vintage
Posts: 182
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Early speculation was that there was a cross/tailwind at the end. The shallower wheel could have been precautionary for the crosswind.

Maybe his wheel choice was lighter to gain time on the climbs?

Either way he couldnt pull it off. His team sucks, always has. Cant win a TDF without a stellar team.
Bike4More is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-28-08, 05:30 PM   #14
acorn_user
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Charlottesville, Virginia
Bikes: Dawes Kalahari, Puch Prima Super Sport, Graham Weigh 853
Posts: 1,990
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
First time I've ever heard Boras called sub-par....

Perhaps he ought to have run Gihblis front and rear. Hohoho.
acorn_user is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-28-08, 06:38 PM   #15
Matt888
Stop It!
 
Matt888's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Bikes: Ferrari, Euro sport, Wheeler.
Posts: 202
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Wow! You people are a marketers dream.
I would hardly refer to a Ghibli / Bora set up as a slow wheel combo.
Maybe you should look into these things a bit more instead of just drinking in everything the Zipp marketers feed you????
Matt888 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-28-08, 07:08 PM   #16
asgelle
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Albuquerque, NM
Bikes:
Posts: 3,211
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt888 View Post
Wow! You people are a marketers dream.
I would hardly refer to a Ghibli / Bora set up as a slow wheel combo.
Maybe you should look into these things a bit more instead of just drinking in everything the Zipp marketers feed you????
O.K. So what would the time differential be for the two wheel sets?
asgelle is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-28-08, 07:59 PM   #17
BananaTugger
CPM M4
 
BananaTugger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: The West Side (Of Rochester, NY).
Bikes: Light.
Posts: 4,930
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt888 View Post
Wow! You people are a marketers dream.
I would hardly refer to a Ghibli / Bora set up as a slow wheel combo.
Maybe you should look into these things a bit more instead of just drinking in everything the Zipp marketers feed you????
It's not martketing, it's fact:


A pair of Zipp 808's are faster than a pair of Campagnolo Boras. A pair of 1080's would only be faster.

Zipp's Sub-9 disc is the most aerodynamic wheel in the world. Campagnolo's disc isn't.
__________________
Ten tenths.
BananaTugger is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-28-08, 11:27 PM   #18
LifeIsSuffering
Sprinters are Sexy
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Bikes: Salsa Campeon.
Posts: 277
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Sastre's set up was absolutely dialed. Not just the rim depth (yes, I was also surprised at Cadel's relatively shallow front rim).

CSC mechanics went so far as to remove the seals on the bearings (ceramic, of course) AND replace the grease with oil for even less drag. I'll let others debate on whether or not such tactics have little more than a placebo effect. Regardless, it just goes to show Sastre and CSC left very little, if anything, to chance.
LifeIsSuffering is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-29-08, 12:07 AM   #19
Matt888
Stop It!
 
Matt888's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Bikes: Ferrari, Euro sport, Wheeler.
Posts: 202
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
6 watts eh. And of course this would vary betwwen diifferent riders and individiul wheel builds and tyre pressures and so many other variables it's ridiculous?? Nice graph, but completly usless in the real world.
Matt888 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-29-08, 09:13 AM   #20
BananaTugger
CPM M4
 
BananaTugger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: The West Side (Of Rochester, NY).
Bikes: Light.
Posts: 4,930
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt888 View Post
6 watts eh. And of course this would vary betwwen diifferent riders and individiul wheel builds and tyre pressures and so many other variables it's ridiculous?? Nice graph, but completly usless in the real world.
Please to be telling me what affect the variables you mention would have on how much faster the Sub-9/1080 then the Campagnolo Disk/Bora?
__________________
Ten tenths.
BananaTugger is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-29-08, 06:37 PM   #21
roadgator
raodmaster shaman
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: G-ville
Bikes:
Posts: 1,431
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt888 View Post
6 watts eh. And of course this would vary betwwen diifferent riders and individiul wheel builds and tyre pressures and so many other variables it's ridiculous?? Nice graph, but completly usless in the real world.
Well if you didn't read the post above yours, it's pretty safe to assume the rest of those "variables" would have broken in Sastre's favor too.

From top to bottom CSC was on another level than lotto and it paid off.
roadgator is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-29-08, 11:31 PM   #22
Parsnip
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Bikes:
Posts: 55
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt888 View Post
6 watts eh. And of course this would vary betwwen diifferent riders and individiul wheel builds and tyre pressures and so many other variables it's ridiculous?? Nice graph, but completly usless in the real world.
Rofl, how can you possibly argue that a bora/ghibli is faster than a 1080/sub9.

If its completley useless in the real world, which wheels would you have run in that TT if money was no object? A pair of ksyriums? that table shows they are horrible in the wind tunnel, but that means nothing in the real world...
Parsnip is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-30-08, 01:14 AM   #23
Matt888
Stop It!
 
Matt888's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Bikes: Ferrari, Euro sport, Wheeler.
Posts: 202
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Parsnip View Post
Rofl, how can you possibly argue that a bora/ghibli is faster than a 1080/sub9.

If its completley useless in the real world, which wheels would you have run in that TT if money was no object? A pair of ksyriums? that table shows they are horrible in the wind tunnel, but that means nothing in the real world...

Firstly, I didn't argue one was faster than the other, you did as evidenced by the use of the graph, read my post again.
Secondly, that graph is hardly that convincing. It compares an 05 Bora to a 07 808. Niether of those wheels are the ones used in the initial arguement. The graph also indicates that these are the differences in watts absorbed at 50kph. Not taking into account the power out put needed of the rider to achieve this speed. So I'm assuming (don't fry me for the assumtion), that these tests are done on a jig so the test is identical for each wheel, yes? So the ammount of variables you experience out on the road cannot be taken into account. The bora would be superior in a cross wind for example, as it's only 50mm, this does not reflect build quality, more the choice of the individual. I'm just saying that even going off what the graph says the diffence is too small to make a huge difference anyway, especially considering there was indeed a strong cross wind on the day of the TT in question. Both Zipp and Campy make a good wheel and using one or the other is not going to make the difference between winning and loosing a race. Thats where my marketers dream comment came from. Otherwise the whole peleton would be on the best product so no advantage was lost. If you want to know what I would choose if money was no object. Well I'd have both and use them as I saw fit. I certainly won't be blaiming my equipment when I don't get results though. I'll get back on the bike and train harder instead.
Matt888 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-30-08, 02:17 AM   #24
Parsnip
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Bikes:
Posts: 55
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Equipment can and does make the difference between winning and losing - no argument about that - put cadel on a sub9/1080 and he will be faster over a flat TT than with a ghibli/bora - equipment making no difference? You are being funny, right??

Its my understanding that a 1080 will always be more aero than a bora, no matter what the wind is doing, as long as you can control the 1080 without losing power.

I really dont think there was a strong crosswind on the TT - sastre weighs next to nothing and he had no problem controlling the 1080.

The whole peloton doesnt run the same wheels because of sponsorship. If Evans was allowed, he would be running a sub9 and a deeper front - the fact that the bora is the deepest wheel campy make means he had no choice - hes a bigger guy than sastre and could easilly have controlled a 1080 over that course.
Parsnip is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-30-08, 02:52 AM   #25
Pedaleur
Je pose, donc je suis.
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Back. Here.
Bikes:
Posts: 2,898
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt888 View Post
The graph also indicates that these are the differences in watts absorbed at 50kph. Not taking into account the power out put needed of the rider to achieve this speed.
I don't follow your reasoning. 6w is 6w.

Though 6w isn't going to make up a minute for Cadel.
Pedaleur is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -6. The time now is 05:38 PM.