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Thread: Ivan Basso

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    Light Makes Right GV27's Avatar
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    Ivan Basso

    Hi all,

    I keep looking on cycling web sites and keep seeing the Cannondale/Basso ads and it seems so wrong to me. I don't get it - with Armstrong back there are so many people who say he's bad for the sport's image because he's a doper, etc. etc. This for a guy who's never been popped for it (PLEASE don't turn this into yet another Lance the doper thread we have PLENTY of those.) Tyler Hamilton is basically persona non grata as is Floyd Landis. But here's Basso with ad campaigns built around him, a favorite for the Giro and people treating him as if he's the returning hero back from injury or illness or something. I don't get it - I believe that he has served his time and the past is the past but I just don't get why he's treated so differently from these other guys? It's like the doping never happened (just like he claims!).

    Yeah, from the post I just posted you might say it's an American vs. European thing but there are plenty of Europeans who come off doping suspensions and aren't treated that way.

    Chris

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    Maybe it's because Basso didn't ***** and whine and deny and bombard the press with bizarre theories and file lawsuits and whatnot? Basically, he got busted, didn't kick up a fuss, served his penalty.

    (Am I remembering this correctly? I could be wrong about Basso. Hard to keep all the dopers straight. )
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    Really, I can't say *****??? Son of a *****!!!!
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    Light Makes Right GV27's Avatar
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    Son of a *****! I guess you have a point to some degree there. But Basso basically pleaded "no contest". He said he bought (or at least was provided) doping products but didn't use them. But you're right, he didn't fight it but still pretty weaselly. I still don't think he should be treated like a returning hero. I guess David Millar got similar treatment, but he did come clean completely none of this "I didn't inhale" stuff.

    I agree with you to some extent on Tyler. Floyd, OTOH, really did get railroaded. The independent lab that did the counter-testing came up as a negative but WADA decided to ignore that and send it back to France to make sure they returned a positive and made sure Floyd's people couldn't watch the test. Maybe he was guilty but the whole process was BS. I understand in that case the authorities being unhappy with him - he made them look really bad. But one would think in that case that sponsors - especially American sponsors would be more than willing to have him back if they're so willing to have Basso back.

    The other weird thing about Basso's case (and Millar's) is that everyone seems to think he'll come back clean and at the same level he was when he was (presumably) doping. If the doping products don't make any difference to performance why do riders use them and why do we test for them?
    Last edited by GV27; 03-23-09 at 10:49 AM.

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    Senior Member gear's Avatar
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    I think it is an American/European thing but only in a positive way. Italians get behind Italian riders just like Americans get behind American riders (Landis was applauded all along the route in the Tour of Cali). But there are just WAY more European cycling fans so it seems (to an American cycling fan) as if its unfair to American racers who are returning.

    I kind of disagree with you about people labeling Basso as a "hero", he certainly was treated that way before the allegations but despite the ad you cite, the response to him is much less now. He's an elite athlete who was suspended for cheating and after paying his dues he's back plying his trade. No more mentions of him conquering the cycling world. Everyone makes mistakes and everyone is entitled to a second chance.

    In the US most sports fans don't want to know about doping athletes, if they did you'd hear a lot more about football players and GOLFERS using steroids. The sports media is all upset about it but the fans, not so much.

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    fixed for the long haul 40 Cent's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GV27 View Post
    Hi all,

    I keep looking on cycling web sites and keep seeing the Cannondale/Basso ads and it seems so wrong to me. I don't get it - with Armstrong back there are so many people who say he's bad for the sport's image because he's a doper, etc. etc. This for a guy who's never been popped for it (PLEASE don't turn this into yet another Lance the doper thread we have PLENTY of those.) Tyler Hamilton is basically persona non grata as is Floyd Landis. But here's Basso with ad campaigns built around him, a favorite for the Giro and people treating him as if he's the returning hero back from injury or illness or something. I don't get it - I believe that he has served his time and the past is the past but I just don't get why he's treated so differently from these other guys? It's like the doping never happened (just like he claims!).

    Yeah, from the post I just posted you might say it's an American vs. European thing but there are plenty of Europeans who come off doping suspensions and aren't treated that way.

    Chris

    By choosing Basso, an obviously ironical decision by Cannondale given his tainted past paired with their righteous tagline "The Good Fight," they're betting redemption is a powerful selling tool. I don't think they're trying to make us forget or forgive his past. They've incorporated it into a more complex narrative. And who knows, it's a risk that may pay off. We've noticed it. They already had him raffle off his Japan Cup bike for charity. It's an interesting campaign.

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    Light Makes Right GV27's Avatar
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    That's EXACtly the ad that inspired me to start this conversation. An American company with him as the center for an ad campaign.....I'm NOT talking about the Italian media, Gear. Mostly the Aussie/N. America media (Cyclingnews.com).

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    Senior Member embankmentlb's Avatar
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    Cannondale has had a relationship with Italian teams for years. This connection with Basso grew from that. As far as Basso's past, He served his time & lost some of his best years, He has talent and is due a fresh start.
    Hamilton & Landis have served their time also but are now in the twilight of their carriers. I don't think ether will return to the top. They both have greasy personalities to boot. The type people you don't let baby sit your kids. Eddie Haskell comes to mind.

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    Light Makes Right GV27's Avatar
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    I know Tyler. I'd let him babysit my kids. We've never talked about his "situation" other than it's been tough on him.

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    Senior Member embankmentlb's Avatar
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    Hamilton was busted big time, not like it's some questionable or inaccurate test. He was using other peoples blood & was warned several times before the actual enforcement. Lucky for him the back-up olympic test was destroyed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GV27 View Post
    Son of a *****! I guess David Millar got similar treatment, but he did come clean completely none of this "I didn't inhale" stuff.

    The other weird thing about Basso's case (and Millar's) is that everyone seems to think he'll come back clean and at the same level he was when he was (presumably) doping. If the doping products don't make any difference to performance why do riders use them and why do we test for them?
    Love the Freddie Hubbard avatar!!

    Addressing only the Millar references: Millar denied, denied, denied and pretty much stated that Gaumont was not telling the truth about the level of doping taking place at Cofidis. Only after caught redhanded did he finally come clean, not that he had a choice with the needles sitting in plain sight at his home. He's no angel. Millar has been a shadow of his former self which says to me that he doped for longer and more often than he confessed. He has yet to come close to the results that he had pre-suspension.
    Last edited by sagginwagin; 04-08-09 at 08:12 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sagginwagin View Post
    ....He has yet to come close to the results that he had pre-suspension.
    Could be more an indication that he is just getting older and slower rather than a potential "smoking needle", no?

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    Old but slow sagginwagin's Avatar
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    I'd have to say "no" to that, but if you want to think that's the cause for his mediocre results since his return, by all means feel free.

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    Senior Member roadwarrior's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GV27 View Post
    I guess David Millar got similar treatment, but he did come clean completely none of this "I didn't inhale" stuff.

    But one would think in that case that sponsors - especially American sponsors would be more than willing to have him back if they're so willing to have Basso back.
    1. Millar came clean when the police, while in his home found his drug materials in a hollowed out book. Then he was brought to tears.

    2. Sponsors don't decide who rides on the team. They, of course can pull their sponsorship if they don't choose to associate with certain riders.

    As for me, Basso served his time. Leave him alone.
    "Nothing is so typical of middling minds than to harp on the intellectual deficiencies of the slightly less smart, but considerably more successful."
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    Senior Member rufvelo's Avatar
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    The doper bashing is quite anti-American. Basso and Millar fessed up because they had no other option, else they would have been doping for years. Now they're 'stars' - examples of how professional cyclists should conduct themselves. Yeah right.

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    Light Makes Right GV27's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by roadwarrior View Post
    1. Millar came clean when the police, while in his home found his drug materials in a hollowed out book. Then he was brought to tears.

    2. Sponsors don't decide who rides on the team. They, of course can pull their sponsorship if they don't choose to associate with certain riders.

    As for me, Basso served his time. Leave him alone.
    Yeah, but they do decide which rider to build their entire marketing campaign around.

    Millar did eventually come clean. None of this Ted Stevens I bought it but then threw it away stuff.

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    Was Extra terrestrial. Now mortal. Anything else?

    And Floyd got railroaded? Yeah right, the guy was testing the limits of HGH consumption.

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    Senior Member roadwarrior's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GV27 View Post
    Yeah, but they do decide which rider to build their entire marketing campaign around.

    Millar did eventually come clean. None of this Ted Stevens I bought it but then threw it away stuff.
    In case you have not been paying attention, Senator Stevens was totally acquitted. And, in fact the Justice Department is now going after the prosecutors. What did the judge say? Worst case he'd ever seen in 25 years on the bench? Also being investigated is how this little suare changed an election. But I digress...

    Fact is that Basso is an Italian riding on an Italian team focusing on the Giro who served his suspension and now he's back. If he wins the Giro, that will be a huge deal for him, his team, and his sponsors.

    The last thing you remember is not always right or true.
    "Nothing is so typical of middling minds than to harp on the intellectual deficiencies of the slightly less smart, but considerably more successful."
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    Senior Member roadwarrior's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rufvelo View Post
    The doper bashing is quite anti-American. Basso and Millar fessed up because they had no other option, else they would have been doping for years. Now they're 'stars' - examples of how professional cyclists should conduct themselves. Yeah right.
    And this is different than the world of professional sports and the general population, how?

    I read a recent survey done in high schools where students think it's OK to cheat as long as they don't get caught.

    BTW...most people engaged in illegal acts don't stop unless they get caught. And having lived for a short time in the world of paid bike racers, most of them don't just wake up and start doping. They dope because the culture was that's what you did to keep your job. I know a bunch of guys, and that includes me, that elected not to do that and we moved on to other things.
    "Nothing is so typical of middling minds than to harp on the intellectual deficiencies of the slightly less smart, but considerably more successful."
    Bret Stephens, WSJ

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    Quote Originally Posted by roadwarrior View Post
    In case you have not been paying attention, Senator Stevens was totally acquitted. And, in fact the Justice Department is now going after the prosecutors.
    Totally false. Read the basis of the charges being dropped, and they have nothing to do with Steven's guilt. Specifically, the failure to hand over to defense lawyers a key piece of evidence suggesting that Bill Allen, the main witness for the prosecution, had contradicted himself. Stevens is known to have accepted hundreds of thousands of dollars of gifts from a supporter that had benefited from Stevens' actions.

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    Light Makes Right GV27's Avatar
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    Sorry, I meant Ted Haggard. Headlines on the brain. I didn't know that Ted Stevens also bought meth from a gay hooker and then threw it away. Learn something new every day! Did he go to gay rehab too? Did Basso? This is all so confusing.....

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    Quote Originally Posted by Reid Rothchild View Post
    Was Extra terrestrial. Now mortal. Anything else?

    And Floyd got railroaded? Yeah right, the guy was testing the limits of HGH consumption.
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    Light Makes Right GV27's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reid Rothchild View Post
    Was Extra terrestrial. Now mortal. Anything else?

    And Floyd got railroaded? Yeah right, the guy was testing the limits of HGH consumption.
    You do know he got popped for testosterone, right?

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    Quote Originally Posted by GV27 View Post
    Son of a *****! I guess you have a point to some degree there. But Basso basically pleaded "no contest". He said he bought (or at least was provided) doping products but didn't use them. But you're right, he didn't fight it but still pretty weaselly. I still don't think he should be treated like a returning hero. I guess David Millar got similar treatment, but he did come clean completely none of this "I didn't inhale" stuff.

    I agree with you to some extent on Tyler. Floyd, OTOH, really did get railroaded. The independent lab that did the counter-testing came up as a negative but WADA decided to ignore that and send it back to France to make sure they returned a positive and made sure Floyd's people couldn't watch the test. Maybe he was guilty but the whole process was BS. I understand in that case the authorities being unhappy with him - he made them look really bad. But one would think in that case that sponsors - especially American sponsors would be more than willing to have him back if they're so willing to have Basso back.

    The other weird thing about Basso's case (and Millar's) is that everyone seems to think he'll come back clean and at the same level he was when he was (presumably) doping. If the doping products don't make any difference to performance why do riders use them and why do we test for them?
    Millar never 'came clean' as everyone keeps saying he did. He admitted to it after all evidence was provided and then started pointing fingers and making himself look better.

    The only thing cleaner he has is his image.
    Truth, like light, blinds. Falsehood, on the contrary, is a beautiful twilight that enhances every object.
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    Quote Originally Posted by GV27 View Post
    You do know he got popped for testosterone, right?
    Yes, I know that.

    I was alluding to David Clinger's comments about Floyd taking huge amounts of HGH. Is there a test for that yet?

    After all of the crap he was taking with USPS he probably thought a patch or some topical T wasn't even cheating.

    The idea he got railroaded is absurd. Him testing positive for Testosterone is the tip of the iceberg. Kinda like Al Capone getting nabbed for tax evasion.
    Last edited by Reid Rothchild; 04-21-09 at 10:53 AM.

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