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Old 04-22-09, 01:17 PM   #76
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Oh, and Chris, this whole, "he's a genetic freak" who lost 20 lbs post cancer is one of the biggest lies of the LA myth.
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Old 04-22-09, 01:36 PM   #77
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It's Not About the Bike.

I weighed 158lbs.

Lie.

Funny how he said under oath at the SCA trial that he was happy if he got into the 74's as in kgs.

Funny how he needed a downtube shifter for the FD to lose weight off the bike, but he was off on his weight on his ownself by 5 or 6lbs at the least.

This from a guy who weighed his food and was known as mr millimeter Pharmstrong for the fan boy, bro mance people.

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Old 04-22-09, 01:57 PM   #78
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Wow, like Astana has one director and no assistants.

Ferrari had a special relationship with Pharmstong and is the most notorious doctor in the biz.

You implied LeMond was as dirty as everyone else if you didn't come out right and mention him.

Nice stretching, EPO wasn't even used until the Indurain era, something to calm your stomach is a little different.

Anyway, have to go. don't have any agenda and have enough hobbies. If you want to know about the sport you claim to love so much that you are arguing till you're blue in the face, read From Lance to Landis, if you don't want to know don't read.

Stop grading your own paper, LA has been shown conclusively to be a doper. LeMond, not a shred of a whisper. Go on rooting for Lance, he'll need it if he even makes it to the tour after the Giro.
I could give a flying fart in space about Lemond....you were the one that brought up Lemond. I stated that drugs were rampant during his era just as they are rampant during the LA era.

I"m not strtetching to EPO....they took amphetamines during the Lemond era and it is well known. that was their drug of choice and the something to calm his stomach was most likely amphetamines.

The only person grading around here is you....you can not say that "LA has been shown conclusively to be a doper" or he wouldn't be cycling still.

How do you cite a book that isn't even close to being a credible source? It is well known that Walsh believes that Armstrong has doped. Why would I read a book that is so one sided in it's statements? Did you read the velonews interview with walsh?

"VeloNews: Why did you write this book?
Advertisement

David Walsh: I did a story on Lance Armstrong in 2001 and I feltthat it raised a lot of questions. It was not definitive, but it revealedhis relationship with Doctor (Michele) Ferrari.

It left me with a lingering feeling of unfinished business, and it wassomething that I always wanted to get to the heart of. Both Pierre andI felt that the Lance Armstrong phenomenon was something that hadto be examined."

He feels like there is something going on? There isn't proof other than the 1999 corticoid test that has been dismissed by all but those that seem set on proving LA is a doper. As far as the 6 positive EPO tests of blood samples....This was done in 2004. By scientific standards testing 5 year old samples is usually not looked upon as good scientific practice. Have you ever wondered why this same french lab has only seemed to find positive results with American riders? There have been tons of riders who go through there but when it's an American Rider they leak to every single news source possible. They were shown to have made mistakes in the handling of Landis's samples and I do not doubt that they made mistakes in the handling of LA's samples.
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Old 04-22-09, 02:03 PM   #79
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Find me one citation, or accusation of LeMond doping, other than this nonsense of him getting an Iron shot in front of a reporter at the Giro in '89. Anything.....
You don't have the slightest whiff of suspicion, even with his '89 TT average speed record still standing despite advances in TT bikes, wind tunnels and EPO? Really?
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Old 04-22-09, 02:09 PM   #80
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Oh, and Chris, this whole, "he's a genetic freak" who lost 20 lbs post cancer is one of the biggest lies of the LA myth.
Are you blind? Unexplained weight loss is one of the hallmark symptoms of cancers. Have you ever seen anyone with Cancer? Anyone who has undergone chemo and radiation treatment? They lose weight! They lose weight because they are too weak to stand up and use their muscles....they lose weight because chemo makes you so nauseous that you can't eat. Losing 20lbs is definitely not unheard of. My grandfather went from 200 lbs to 130 lbs by the time he was done with Chemo.

In comparison to the average athlete(read not pro but your run of the mill racer), LA is Genetic freak. He lost 20 lbs of weight and could easily due to his relatively large mass of upper body muscle from being a triathlete. It is well known that triathlete have bulkier upper bodies than pro cyclists.
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Old 04-22-09, 02:12 PM   #81
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You don't have the slightest whiff of suspicion, even with his '89 TT average speed record still standing despite advances in TT bikes, wind tunnels and EPO? Really?
he is just like every other Greg Lemond fan boy I;ve met. He wants to run his mouth about LA being a doper despite not actual proven evidence except hearsay and then when it comes to Greg Lemond he believes Lemond is a saint and a "genetic freak". He even calls me out as attacking Greg Lemond when I never mentioned his name until he brought it up.
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Old 04-22-09, 02:30 PM   #82
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I could give a flying fart in space about Lemond....you were the one that brought up Lemond. I stated that drugs were rampant during his era just as they are rampant during the LA era.

I"m not strtetching to EPO....they took amphetamines during the Lemond era and it is well known. that was their drug of choice and the something to calm his stomach was most likely amphetamines.

The only person grading around here is you....you can not say that "LA has been shown conclusively to be a doper" or he wouldn't be cycling still.

How do you cite a book that isn't even close to being a credible source? It is well known that Walsh believes that Armstrong has doped. Why would I read a book that is so one sided in it's statements? Did you read the velonews interview with walsh?

"VeloNews: Why did you write this book?
Advertisement

David Walsh: I did a story on Lance Armstrong in 2001 and I feltthat it raised a lot of questions. It was not definitive, but it revealedhis relationship with Doctor (Michele) Ferrari.

It left me with a lingering feeling of unfinished business, and it wassomething that I always wanted to get to the heart of. Both Pierre andI felt that the Lance Armstrong phenomenon was something that hadto be examined."

He feels like there is something going on? There isn't proof other than the 1999 corticoid test that has been dismissed by all but those that seem set on proving LA is a doper. As far as the 6 positive EPO tests of blood samples....This was done in 2004. By scientific standards testing 5 year old samples is usually not looked upon as good scientific practice. Have you ever wondered why this same french lab has only seemed to find positive results with American riders? There have been tons of riders who go through there but when it's an American Rider they leak to every single news source possible. They were shown to have made mistakes in the handling of Landis's samples and I do not doubt that they made mistakes in the handling of LA's samples.
There are so many misstatements of facts here it's ridiculous.

That the French lab leaked Landis' result.

No, that was Phonak that released it.

Also, no one except the fanboys have dismissed the corticoid positive from '99.
I posted the result that even the UCI consideres it a positive and there are statements by LA in the press that he had no TUE right before the positive came out.

The french lab stuff is a joke from you and shows just how parochial you are. Did you also vote for GWB? I don't even think Pharmstrong associates with him anymore.

Dismiss the book without even reading it? And you're a grad student? There's uncontested stuff in there that will rock your little fan boy world.

Because Walsh believes that Pharmstrong is a doper makes it not credible? What about Walsh gives you the impression he's not ethical other than Pharmstrong propaganda. Vincent Bugliosi did a book on Charles Manson called Helter Skelter. Because Bugliosi believes with all his heart, mind and soul that Manson is a murderer does the book become less credible? What an inane assertion. This shows how simple you are. As a matter of fact, when LA was a new pro, Walsh wrote a book which contained a chapter which was very laudatory towards LA and they got on very well.

You probably don't realize this but Walsh was the guy who broke the LA/ Ferrari connection and he obtained that in a long LA interview in 2001. The interview in in From Lance to Landis and that interview in itself will blow your mind.

Well, maybe not your mind because your such an LA apologist.

Back to this other thing. You think LA doped but there is no evidence. Then how the heck is it that you think he doped? Do you have to be an eyewitness and pharmacologist who is there running tests of the substance as LA injects them?

Talk about a conspiracy theory with the French lab, just about everything you say is bs and you're talking out of your behind. They've only found American dopers? Really. You're just demonstrating your lack of knowledge here. I'll get out of the way of your spewing. So all the positives from the TdF over the last 5 years were Americans? This is pretty funny.

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/mo...la.html?page=0
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Old 04-22-09, 02:47 PM   #83
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Are you blind? Unexplained weight loss is one of the hallmark symptoms of cancers. Have you ever seen anyone with Cancer? Anyone who has undergone chemo and radiation treatment? They lose weight! They lose weight because they are too weak to stand up and use their muscles....they lose weight because chemo makes you so nauseous that you can't eat. Losing 20lbs is definitely not unheard of. My grandfather went from 200 lbs to 130 lbs by the time he was done with Chemo.

In comparison to the average athlete(read not pro but your run of the mill racer), LA is Genetic freak. He lost 20 lbs of weight and could easily due to his relatively large mass of upper body muscle from being a triathlete. It is well known that triathlete have bulkier upper bodies than pro cyclists.
Read very closely. He said his weight went down to 158 after he had recovered from cancer and was cycling again competitively when in fact he had only lost a kg or 2 at most after his cancer.

I don't need a lecture about cancer and your reading comprehension is terrible. Do you really think anyone with an IQ over 60, which I boldly guess we all have on these forums, doesn't know that you can lose a lot of weight with cancer?

Anyway, Coyles research paper for the Journal of Applied Physiology, which took into account the time from 11/92 to 11/99 lists his weights as follows.

11/92 78.9 kg
01/93 76.5kg
09/93 75.1kg
08/97 79.5kg
11/99 79.7kg

His cancer was diagnosed in Oct. of '96.

Can you read those numbers? He was heavier after the cancer than before it.

The biggest part of his myth is that he went down from a racing weight of 175lbs (79.5kg) to 158 (71.8kg)after he had recovered from cancer.

The myth says he's lighter so he can climb the mountains better, but even Pharmstrong testified in the SCA trial that he was lucky to see the 74's at the Tour. Look at his weight from Sept '93 when he won the world championship. 75.1kg. So all this mythology is about less than 1kg.

Why is this guy lying, about his being the most tested athlete, about losing 17lbs? There are a lot more lies, like everytime he opens his mouth.

He didn't lose 20lbs of weight. Another lie you bought into.
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Old 04-22-09, 03:11 PM   #84
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You don't have the slightest whiff of suspicion, even with his '89 TT average speed record still standing despite advances in TT bikes, wind tunnels and EPO? Really?
That TT was short, slightly downhill and with a tailwind.

LeMond V02 max 93

Pharmstrong 81

Pharmstrong's average speed in his 2x as long time trials like Metz was almost the same as LeMond's TT you mention. Remember also, he only beat Fignon by 58 seconds and Fignon did not use aero bars or an aero helmet. At the speeds they both were riding, air resistance is huge and the aero stuff gave LeMond a big advantage.

The biggest aero drag on a bike is the rider and LeMond's position was better than your boy's was. LeMond rode a disc and the advances are way overblown anyway.

I have to find the link, I think it's on NYvelocity where Pharmstrong says he was riding a 21lb climbing bike in '99, which is another lie that this guy can't help himself from making.

Found it, Outside mag. Now, who in their right mind believe Pharmstrong rode a 21 lb bike in the Tour in '99?

http://outside.away.com/outside/cult...omeback-6.html


You don't think drugs are as pervasive in cycling as we're led to believe?

We have to get away from this "It was the fastest Tour in history because they're all doped!" No. That's absolutely, categorically, patently, ridiculously false. Because I can watch Michael Phelps or I can watch swimming [in general], and they were, like, lapping world records. That's because the human body evolves, training evolves. And the Tour de France evolves. When I won the Tour in 1999, my climbing bike? Twenty-one pounds. When I won it in 2005? Fourteen pounds. Man, you go uphill fast if you lose seven pounds. It's a massive disservice to just go, "Oh, that's effed, he must have cheated." We're fools for thinking that. Will people cheat? Hell, yeah, they're gonna cheat. Did they cheat this year? Yes. Will they cheat in 50 years? Yes. OK. Look, I want a clean sport. I want people to be able to watch the event and say, "I believe that." But I'm not going to stand on the top of this chair and scream how clean I am. I'll stand on top of this chair and scream how hard I work and how much I want to win.
Armstrong also believe that the human body has evolved in the latter half of the twentieth century into the 21St century.

His climbing bike lost 7 pounds from '99 to 2005.

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Old 04-22-09, 03:42 PM   #85
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That TT was short, slightly downhill and with a tailwind.

LeMond V02 max 93

Pharmstrong 81

Pharmstrong's average speed in his 2x as long time trials like Metz was almost the same as LeMond's TT you mention. Remember also, he only beat Fignon by 58 seconds and Fignon did not use aero bars or an aero helmet. At the speeds they both were riding, air resistance is huge and the aero stuff gave LeMond a big advantage.

The biggest aero drag on a bike is the rider and LeMond's position was better than your boy's was. LeMond rode a disc and the advances are way overblown anyway.

I have to find the link, I think it's on NYvelocity where Pharmstrong says he was riding a 21lb climbing bike in '99, which is another lie that this guy can't help himself from making.

Found it, Outside mag. Now, who in their right mind believe Pharmstrong rode a 21 lb bike in the Tour in '99?

http://outside.away.com/outside/cult...omeback-6.html


You don't think drugs are as pervasive in cycling as we're led to believe?

We have to get away from this "It was the fastest Tour in history because they're all doped!" No. That's absolutely, categorically, patently, ridiculously false. Because I can watch Michael Phelps or I can watch swimming [in general], and they were, like, lapping world records. That's because the human body evolves, training evolves. And the Tour de France evolves. When I won the Tour in 1999, my climbing bike? Twenty-one pounds. When I won it in 2005? Fourteen pounds. Man, you go uphill fast if you lose seven pounds. It's a massive disservice to just go, "Oh, that's effed, he must have cheated." We're fools for thinking that. Will people cheat? Hell, yeah, they're gonna cheat. Did they cheat this year? Yes. Will they cheat in 50 years? Yes. OK. Look, I want a clean sport. I want people to be able to watch the event and say, "I believe that." But I'm not going to stand on the top of this chair and scream how clean I am. I'll stand on top of this chair and scream how hard I work and how much I want to win.
Armstrong also believe that the human body has evolved in the latter half of the twentieth century into the 21St century.

His climbing bike lost 7 pounds from '99 to 2005.
I didn't ask about Armstrong.
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Old 04-22-09, 04:01 PM   #86
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Yunno - VO2 max is only one factor in how an athlete can/will perform. There are plenty of others.
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Old 04-22-09, 04:13 PM   #87
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I didn't ask about Armstrong.

When you get right down to it, you didn't ask about anyone now, did you?

You thought it was a rhetorical question.

I'll answer anyway.

No, I don't believe LeMond was doping as there is not one scintilla of evidence, and no one is suggesting he was doping except people on internet forums who engage in recriminations.
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Old 04-22-09, 04:22 PM   #88
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Yunno - VO2 max is only one factor in how an athlete can/will perform. There are plenty of others.
For endurance athletes, it's a huge factor. Look at the numbers cross country skiers put up. Running is a little different as efficiency comes into play and it's hard to modify your form.

Another factor is FTP which cyclist are able to measure fairly accurately and Armstrong's FTP and the fact he won't reveal it now when everyone knew it before, points to fact he was doping previously.

As LeMond pointed out (he was a real innovater and besides aero stuff, he helped popularize SRM's) the amount of oxygen you use doesn't decline all that much as we age. LA has only been out 3 and a half years. IF his FTP was 6.7 before, it should still be well over 6 now even if he lost 5%

What other factors did you have in mind that would cut down on your performance capacities?

Mind over Matter? La himself said, "you can have all the heart in the world but if you don't have the legs, forget about it."
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Old 04-22-09, 06:12 PM   #89
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Might I add this





I think this had gone as far as we can go here. Thread closed.
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