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View Poll Results: Discussion of Doping - what's your preference?
No. Don't talk about it at all. 1 1.61%
Yes. It's an unfortunate reality and fair game - no limits on discussion. 24 38.71%
Let's limit it to any disclosures made in the press in the past week. 14 22.58%
Talk about it all you want - but in a separate sub-forum. 20 32.26%
Other - explain please 5 8.06%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 62. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 04-23-09, 04:27 PM   #1
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Doping Discussions? Your Preference

Let's hear from the users here. Pick your choice, and explain it if you wish to.
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Old 04-23-09, 04:32 PM   #2
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Vote early and often!




Hey Zorro, maybe we're onto something! Viewership is up to 7!
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Old 04-23-09, 04:40 PM   #3
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I'm gonna take the high road and say limit it to events of the past week.

Frankly, I think that just opens the door to "Yeah, just like XYZ last year." or "Don't you know his history?" and you're off to the races. But on principle I'll vote to err on the side of less censorship - initially. We can always throw the bums out later if need be.
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Old 04-23-09, 05:02 PM   #4
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I voted other. Talk about it all you want but keep Reid out of the discussion.
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Old 04-23-09, 05:36 PM   #5
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Fair discussion, but no rants and relevant to the news of the week only would be my position, as Admin.
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Old 04-23-09, 05:50 PM   #6
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Can one talk about bodybuilding without doping being the elephant in the room?

Kloden's behavior in the T-Mobile era will be an issue very soon. It's not a biopassport thing as I had been led to believe but a Frieburg clinic issue that has been hanging around for years.

In other sports, it is very likely Clemens will be indicted based on lying to Congress.

Until we can be pretty sure success isn't coming from a needle or a bottle of pills, the problem can't be ignored.

In fairness, I voted for a seperate sub forum, in that it recognizes the issue, but people enter at their own risk and realize what they are getting into.

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Old 04-23-09, 05:55 PM   #7
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I voted other. Talk about it all you want but keep Reid out of the discussion.
Jeez, don't you realize when you ban a book or a movie, everyone wants to read it. You're making this too easy.
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Old 04-24-09, 10:47 AM   #8
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I voted Yes, and Other.

Yes because I think it is a fair discussion.

However, I think members should use judgment and limit the discussion of doping to threads where it is relevant, and not simply jump in to every thread where any rider that has ever actually or potentially doped is mentioned. I am not sure if an adequate policy could be wordsmithed to make this a policy or not, but it is a limitation to which I would like to see members hold themselves for the sake of civility.

I would also like to see, whether in doping threads or otherwise, the elimination of inflammatory nicknames for riders. I know it is not allowed to attack other members, but to use inflammatory terms against professional riders serves no constructive purpose either. Again, I don't necessarily think this needs to be an enforceable rule, but a guideline that members follow... after all, there is much intelligent discourse here on the topic that doesn't need to be heated by artificial means. Inflamed emotions add little to the discussions.
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Old 04-24-09, 10:57 AM   #9
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I voted Yes, and Other.

Yes because I think it is a fair discussion.

However, I think members should use judgment and limit the discussion of doping to threads where it is relevant, and not simply jump in to every thread where any rider that has ever actually or potentially doped is mentioned. I am not sure if an adequate policy could be wordsmithed to make this a policy or not, but it is a limitation to which I would like to see members hold themselves for the sake of civility.

I would also like to see, whether in doping threads or otherwise, the elimination of inflammatory nicknames for riders. I know it is not allowed to attack other members, but to use inflammatory terms against professional riders serves no constructive purpose either. Again, I don't necessarily think this needs to be an enforceable rule, but a guideline that members follow... after all, there is much intelligent discourse here on the topic that doesn't need to be heated by artificial means. Inflamed emotions add little to the discussions.
I appreciate the sober response so I won't respond at length. One question.

You realize that Lance Armstrong is a very wealthy, fairly powerful person because of his ability to inspire or inflame strong emotions? He has exploited this ability to his gigantic benefit on many levels.

This however is a double edged sword.

Look at the name calling and outright lies and general character assassination LA or his minions have employed to enable him to keep his place in the world of cycling and society.

LA wasn't counting on dealing with people who are his match and don't ever back down.

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Old 04-24-09, 12:25 PM   #10
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I think doping threads are valid and should be part of the Pro Cycling forum as doping is a part of Pro Cycling. However I believe a certain poster is only on this board to troll and make continuous threads over and over that lead to Lance Armstrong is a doper. Now I believe everyone on this board is entitled to their opinions but the constant posting of "LA is a doper, Greg Lemond is god" in every single post should be looked upon just like the BikesDirect threads in the road cycling form. We get Reid's point and we understand his stance on the issue but every thread he posts in turns into a doping thread and that is why this poll is even happening.
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Old 04-24-09, 12:57 PM   #11
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I appreciate the sober response so I won't respond at length. One question.

You realize that Lance Armstrong is a very wealthy, fairly powerful person because of his ability to inspire or inflame strong emotions? He has exploited this ability to his gigantic benefit on many levels.

This however is a double edged sword.

Look at the name calling and outright lies and general character assassination LA or his minions have employed to enable him to keep his place in the world of cycling and society.

LA wasn't counting on dealing with people who are his match and don't ever back down.
I have a distinct advantage to enjoying the sport I guess, since I don't pay much attention to the back biting that people do behind the scenes. I never know which riders are feuding with other riders, I just know who is racing against who on the road.

My ex-wife and I used to be distinctly different too... when we watched movies, she always knew which star was married to who, and who was dating who, and who was fighting with who... I however was clueless about who slept with who after the filming stopped, and just enjoyed the movies.

I don't delude myself into believing that everyone in the race is playing fair, but I don't delude myself into believing that I can tell who is clean either... Since I can't fix the problem, I leave the fixing (and detection) to those that get paid to do it. They get paid well to do their part so that I can relax and enjoy watching the race.

I will save my ire for the cheaters when they are caught. I do have my suspicions that many (and perhaps all) of those I cheer for are cheating, and it does temper my enjoyment, but I won't let the cheaters win by stealing all of the joy from me.

When I look back, I may discover that I have always cheered for a good cheater and feel robbed of some of my joy, but I will still have some because I will still have enjoyed watching the races.
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Old 04-25-09, 01:07 PM   #12
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i voted other. no one is forced to read the threads that don't interest them .

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Old 04-25-09, 07:28 PM   #13
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When I look back, I may discover that I have always cheered for a good cheater and feel robbed of some of my joy, but I will still have some because I will still have enjoyed watching the races.
The reason I'm so disgusted with Armstrong, (and not so much with the others) is that I believe he is using his foundation, and his position, as the 'living emobodiment of hope' to dupe a lot of unsuspecting people.

Mr Hope Personified, an atheist, is taking an idea, that many hold dear and which to them, exists only in a spiritual, religious context, and defiling it by the way he lives his life.

I understand people are human, weak, and make mistakes, and I have sympathy and empathy for that, however Armstrong is such a revoltingly cynical, hypocritcal "person" that I feel it's absolutely necessary that he be exposed as the fraud he is.

I can understand people withholding judgement on the guy, but people who do know what he's up to and who defend it, or say that it doesn't matter. I believe they have some major moral and ethical deficiencies.

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Old 04-25-09, 07:36 PM   #14
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I think doping threads are valid and should be part of the Pro Cycling forum as doping is a part of Pro Cycling. However I believe a certain poster is only on this board to troll and make continuous threads over and over that lead to Lance Armstrong is a doper. Now I believe everyone on this board is entitled to their opinions but the constant posting of "LA is a doper, Greg Lemond is god" in every single post should be looked upon just like the BikesDirect threads in the road cycling form. We get Reid's point and we understand his stance on the issue but every thread he posts in turns into a doping thread and that is why this poll is even happening.
Ok, that's fine. I'll be leaving soon anyway.

If in time there is a doping thread, as I voted for, everyone who enters knows what they are getting into and I would obviously abide by the rules if I chose to participate.

Unless the doping mess is cleaned up, cycling is a fake sport, there's no ifs ands or buts about it. Cycling is a fake sport right now. It's sad but true and I'm a really big fan of most all sports.

Lastly I did correctly reveal the Kloden doping story, and he's a guy that was competing very closely with Armstrong and Floyd Landis.

Another poster mentioned the Daily Peloton forums. I've looked at those, and in comparison to Bikeforums, they're an island of sanity.
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Old 04-25-09, 07:37 PM   #15
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I think doping threads are valid and should be part of the Pro Cycling forum as doping is a part of Pro Cycling. However I believe a certain poster is only on this board to troll and make continuous threads over and over that lead to Lance Armstrong is a doper. Now I believe everyone on this board is entitled to their opinions but the constant posting of "LA is a doper, Greg Lemond is god" in every single post should be looked upon just like the BikesDirect threads in the road cycling form. We get Reid's point and we understand his stance on the issue but every thread he posts in turns into a doping thread and that is why this poll is even happening.
Just add him to your ignore list.
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Old 04-25-09, 10:48 PM   #16
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Let's hear from the users here.
"Users"?
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Old 04-26-09, 04:21 AM   #17
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Can one talk about bodybuilding without doping being the elephant in the room?

Kloden's behavior in the T-Mobile era will be an issue very soon. It's not a biopassport thing as I had been led to believe but a Frieburg clinic issue that has been hanging around for years.

In other sports, it is very likely Clemens will be indicted based on lying to Congress.

Until we can be pretty sure success isn't coming from a needle or a bottle of pills, the problem can't be ignored.

In fairness, I voted for a seperate sub forum, in that it recognizes the issue, but people enter at their own risk and realize what they are getting into.
This is a cycling forum. Not a bodybuilding or a baseball forum.

You posted info like you were some insider. This was already news in a number of places. If you could use google, you could have easily found this. So quit trying to pass yourself off as a person who is somehow deeply involved.

If you really want to engage in a discussion on doping, there are fourms where there ARE people that know what they are talking about and you would get your head handed to you.

Trust me on this.

The threads on the Kloden stuff had around four posts. Total. Three were articles on it.

Separate forum. But it has to be higly moderated as are the forums where the informed people post.
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Old 04-26-09, 04:26 AM   #18
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Ok, that's fine. I'll be leaving soon anyway.

If in time there is a doping thread, as I voted for, everyone who enters knows what they are getting into and I would obviously abide by the rules if I chose to participate.

Unless the doping mess is cleaned up, cycling is a fake sport, there's no ifs ands or buts about it. Cycling is a fake sport right now. It's sad but true and I'm a really big fan of most all sports.

Lastly I did correctly reveal the Kloden doping story, and he's a guy that was competing very closely with Armstrong and Floyd Landis.

Another poster mentioned the Daily Peloton forums. I've looked at those, and in comparison to Bikeforums, they're an island of sanity.
You read an article and re-posted it like you somehow knew what was up.

Give me a break.

BTW...I also post at DP (under another handle). If you post there like you post here, you might last three days.
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Old 04-26-09, 08:39 AM   #19
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You read an article and re-posted it like you somehow knew what was up.

Give me a break.

BTW...I also post at DP (under another handle). If you post there like you post here, you might last three days.
Whatever guy.

I had the Kloden stuff up at the end of last week.

I don't speak French or German.

A friend of mine posts extensively at DP and he gave me the info.

Before you start making uninformed accusations, it's very easy to see when threads started.

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The only news I'm seeing about Kloden is about him taking the stage at Trentino.
Have a link for us?
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And you got it from ???? A dark little corner of the world. I've check the French, Dutch and German news sites I follow ... they aren't mentioning it yet. That is normally where I see things pop first.
NOTE - did see that Kloden was NOT racing in Tireno today. Apparently just wanted to do the TT??? Or maybe ...

EEEK could Reid be right

I also listed Der Spiegel here and took it down when my aforementioned friend said that Der Spiegel didn't want this stuff out yet with their name connected.

L' Equippe beat Der Spiegel out of Der Spiegel's own story.

Don't make lazy accusations.

As for me lasting 3 days at Daily Peloton, I'm not going in there with guns ablazing because I know there are many people there who know exactly what's going on. Many can't come out and speak as freely as they'd like as they are still associated with the sport.

That forum is very different from this one, as the majority aren't in denial like here.

Look at the ridicule the Pharmstrong apologists get over there.

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Old 04-26-09, 02:06 PM   #20
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Whatever guy.

I had the Kloden stuff up at the end of last week.

I don't speak French or German.

A friend of mine posts extensively at DP and he gave me the info.

Before you start making uninformed accusations, it's very easy to see when threads started.






I also listed Der Spiegel here and took it down when my aforementioned friend said that Der Spiegel didn't want this stuff out yet with their name connected.

L' Equippe beat Der Spiegel out of Der Spiegel's own story.

Don't make lazy accusations.

As for me lasting 3 days at Daily Peloton, I'm not going in there with guns ablazing because I know there are many people there who know exactly what's going on. Many can't come out and speak as freely as they'd like as they are still associated with the sport.

That forum is very different from this one, as the majority aren't in denial like here.

Look at the ridicule the Pharmstrong apologists get over there.
Nobody posting on an internet forum knows exactly what's going on unless it's the athletes or coaches in pro cycling.
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Old 04-26-09, 02:17 PM   #21
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Nobody posting on an internet forum knows exactly what's going on unless it's the athletes or coaches in pro cycling.
Or the doctors transfusing their blood .... sorry just had to beat RR to the punch
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Old 04-26-09, 05:16 PM   #22
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"Users"?
Not like that.
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Old 04-26-09, 05:22 PM   #23
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Or the doctors transfusing their blood .... sorry just had to beat RR to the punch
yeah...I kind of meant to include "doctors" in the all encompassing "coaches" haha
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Old 04-26-09, 06:28 PM   #24
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This is a cycling forum. Not a bodybuilding or a baseball forum.

You posted info like you were some insider. This was already news in a number of places. If you could use google, you could have easily found this. So quit trying to pass yourself off as a person who is somehow deeply involved.

If you really want to engage in a discussion on doping, there are fourms where there ARE people that know what they are talking about and you would get your head handed to you.

Trust me on this.

The threads on the Kloden stuff had around four posts. Total. Three were articles on it.

Separate forum. But it has to be higly moderated as are the forums where the informed people post.
It's not a bodybuilding forum but it might as well be for what a garbage sport pro cycling has become.

Bro, I knew this stuff last Wednesday from my source.

It was nowhere to be found until yesterday morning.

Read through this thread. Others here tried to confirm it and couldn't and I'm sure they used google. It's not like it's a big secret on how to find stuff on the internets.

The only stuff that came up was from 11/08 at the latest.

You're a Johnny come lately here on this one.

You don't think I googled to confirm if it was out there or not?

There are people at Daily Peloton who know what's going on and they hold Pharmstrong and all these other guys in very low esteem.

Aside from Marty Jemison posting stuff about his tours and how Pharmstrong's return is giving him great business most of them universally are disgusted with the situation.

Get my head handed to me? Do you mean becuase I don't know exactly how much r-EPO, HGH, insulin, Winstrol, Testosterone they use and how many times they are transfusing themselves?

The fact is that I posted this nonsense before it was up anywhere else. It's very easy for you to post a link. I actually mentioned Der Spiegel and my source asked me to remove it.

If you have a link post it.
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Old 04-27-09, 03:53 AM   #25
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I have a distinct advantage to enjoying the sport I guess, since I don't pay much attention to the back biting that people do behind the scenes. I never know which riders are feuding with other riders, I just know who is racing against who on the road.

My ex-wife and I used to be distinctly different too... when we watched movies, she always knew which star was married to who, and who was dating who, and who was fighting with who... I however was clueless about who slept with who after the filming stopped, and just enjoyed the movies.

I don't delude myself into believing that everyone in the race is playing fair, but I don't delude myself into believing that I can tell who is clean either... Since I can't fix the problem, I leave the fixing (and detection) to those that get paid to do it. They get paid well to do their part so that I can relax and enjoy watching the race.

I will save my ire for the cheaters when they are caught. I do have my suspicions that many (and perhaps all) of those I cheer for are cheating, and it does temper my enjoyment, but I won't let the cheaters win by stealing all of the joy from me.

When I look back, I may discover that I have always cheered for a good cheater and feel robbed of some of my joy, but I will still have some because I will still have enjoyed watching the races.
This is a great post. Very well said.

To Reid:

I was a professional. I now work with professionals. I have done things you will never do, seen things you will never see, been places you will never go. I know things you will never know. Which is why I don't post here very frequently. There is a place for informed discussion on this topic, and you and this forum are not the place.

I don't run to an internet forum to post stuff about people so I can feel good about myself. That's the difference between people who have done things, and people who pretend.

You spend an awful lot of time defending yourself and making "claims". That tells us a lot.

You should enlighten cyberland with your informed analysis of Liege. Race tactics, etc.

I can't wait.

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