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Old 06-26-09, 04:42 PM   #1
DenisMenchov
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If Lance wins the TDF this year would you think it was by doping?

I want Menchov to win, but am hoping Lance does have a podium finish. If Lance came 1st then Menchov 2nd that would be ok as well. As long as Lance or Menchov wins it's all gravy to me.

But on the slight chance that Lance wins the tour this year, or gets a podium finish, are people going to still blame him for doping, or will a win during today's more strict testing and busts mean that he is definitely clean and probably has been clean all his racing years?
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Old 06-26-09, 04:59 PM   #2
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I really don't care one way or the other. I don't care who wins.
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Old 06-26-09, 05:05 PM   #3
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Hope they catch the scoundrel red handed with a big syringe in his arm during a bust, and lots of pictures of the moment for the world to see in news headlines.
I then hope he is arrested, convicted, stripped of his titles, and gets rapped in jail.
I hope he then writes a book confessing everything he has done, thinking he will make millions from it, but instead people burn his book on the streets.
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Old 06-26-09, 05:11 PM   #4
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Yes, based on his past use of performance-enhancing drugs.

He's already tested positive for EPO and has multiple accounts from people from within his own team - former teammates, team personnel, team doctors, etc - who have spoken out about his EPO and other performance enhancing drug use.

Armstrong's other Tour wins are clouded over by his doping, so why would anyone assume otherwise? He couldn't win without the drugs.
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Old 06-26-09, 05:29 PM   #5
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He's already tested positive for EPO and has multiple accounts from people from within his own team - former teammates, team personnel, team doctors, etc - who have spoken out about his EPO and other performance enhancing drug use.

Armstrong's other Tour wins are clouded over by his doping, so why would anyone assume otherwise? He couldn't win without the drugs.
So your saying even with the current big busts that have gone down in the last few TDFs, stricter regulations etc. in place, if Lance won this year's tour...you'd still think it was because he some how managed to cheat and not get caught?
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Old 06-26-09, 05:34 PM   #6
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Contador is the best young rider in the world. His TT skills will be put to the test because this year's tour really emphasizes the TT and de-emphasizes the hors categorie cols. This works to Armstrong's advantage, as does having the support of Bruyneel behind him.

If a team rift were to develop over who is the leader, I expect Bruyneel to side with Armstrong, but announce publicly that Contador is the leader. If Armstrong beats Contador in the first TT and has the lead over Contador going into the mountains, then Contador will have to ride in support of Armstrong. If they were on different teams, and you took drugs out of the equation, then Contador would ride away from Armstrong in the high mountains. That said, get ready for number 8. Unfortunately.
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Old 06-26-09, 06:04 PM   #7
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So your saying even with the current big busts that have gone down in the last few TDFs, stricter regulations etc. in place, if Lance won this year's tour...you'd still think it was because he some how managed to cheat and not get caught?

Yes. Armstrong already has cheated. This year! He's the only rider who the testing agencies are not allowed to do a legitimate out-of-competition test on. The rules are different for Armstrong, and he knows how to manipulate the current rules as well as the tests. Do other riders get a half hour to leave the tester before they have to do their drug tests? No. Does Armstrong get to do this? Yes.
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Old 06-26-09, 06:35 PM   #8
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*plonk*
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Some sort of pithy irrelevant one-liner should go here.
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Old 06-26-09, 10:19 PM   #9
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Big George more of a factor for Lance's win than EPO?

I wonder if it's possible that Lance just had the best team which catapulted him to the top, rather than the infamous EPO drug allegations. Also doesn't he have some kind of alien rare vO2 max or something?
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Old 06-26-09, 10:33 PM   #10
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Old 06-26-09, 10:49 PM   #11
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Yes. Armstrong already has cheated. This year! He's the only rider who the testing agencies are not allowed to do a legitimate out-of-competition test on. The rules are different for Armstrong, and he knows how to manipulate the current rules as well as the tests. Do other riders get a half hour to leave the tester before they have to do their drug tests? No. Does Armstrong get to do this? Yes.
If another rider had/has done so you would have never heard about it to begin with.
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Old 06-27-09, 02:42 AM   #12
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Yes. Armstrong already has cheated. This year! He's the only rider who the testing agencies are not allowed to do a legitimate out-of-competition test on. The rules are different for Armstrong, and he knows how to manipulate the current rules as well as the tests. Do other riders get a half hour to leave the tester before they have to do their drug tests? No. Does Armstrong get to do this? Yes.
Leave poor Lance alone.
Donate to the Livestrong foundation, have some kind of yellow cycling accessory, and tell your relatives at Thanksgiving dinner all about the world of cycling and Lance Armstrong winning 7 times. Its a feel good story of an AMERICAN cycling champion. thats all you need to do.
Now go forth, LIVE STRONG and prosper my freind!!
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Old 06-27-09, 03:11 AM   #13
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Leave poor Lance alone.
Donate to the Livestrong foundation, have some kind of yellow cycling accessory, and tell your relatives at Thanksgiving dinner all about the world of cycling and Lance Armstrong winning 7 times. Its a feel good story of an AMERICAN cycling champion. thats all you need to do.
Now go forth, LIVE STRONG and prosper my freind!!

LOL! Haha! Thanks for the advice, but my cycling history didn't start in 1999.

Armstrong is no different than Barry Bonds. Barry only had his trainer bust him. Armstrong has had former team docs, teammates, etc bust on him. Both guilty. And not a real champion, either of them.
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Old 06-27-09, 04:15 AM   #14
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Yes. Armstrong already has cheated. This year! He's the only rider who the testing agencies are not allowed to do a legitimate out-of-competition test on. The rules are different for Armstrong, and he knows how to manipulate the current rules as well as the tests. Do other riders get a half hour to leave the tester before they have to do their drug tests? No. Does Armstrong get to do this? Yes.
I'd love proof that shows he's the ONLY rider that gets a half hour to break away from the tester when they show up. I'm assuming you're talking about the one instance he went public about going to shower when an unknown frenchman showed up at his door when he came home after an 8 hour training session and told him he had to do a test right then, but failed to show legitament credentials. If that's the instance you are referring too then you just keep on being a nay-sayer. Even the tester himself was later interviewed saying he didn't mind at all if Lance went to go shower while they called around to find out who this guy was.

And to all the people who say that Lance Armstrong is even cause he doped and cheated and that he's never won a race without cheating... I don't deny that he cheated in the past and most likely was using EPO or something like it during some if not all of the previous TdF's he won, but how is that different from every other cyclist in each of those races with him. If you don't like it, then don't watch. Go ride on your own two wheels and feel better about yourself because you don't dope, but even though Lance armstrong isn't doping there's no possible way that ANY of us could keep up with him. An extraordinary athlete is still an extraordinary athlete with or without drugs; why does it matter if he's 10% better than you or 50% better than you?

I agree whole heartedly that it's an inspirational tale of an American 'hero' that gives everyone in need hope. If he has to do things behind the scenes to keep hope alive then so be it. I just hope he doesn't get caught and go down in flames, bursting millions of dreams with him.

(It's like 3am, so if there are more than a few run-on sentences then please forgive me)
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Old 06-27-09, 08:04 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by bellweatherman View Post
Yes. Armstrong already has cheated. This year! He's the only rider who the testing agencies are not allowed to do a legitimate out-of-competition test on. The rules are different for Armstrong, and he knows how to manipulate the current rules as well as the tests. Do other riders get a half hour to leave the tester before they have to do their drug tests? No. Does Armstrong get to do this? Yes.
Say what you want, but that was a flaw in the system. Nobody ever disputed that the guy showed up alone claiming to be from a lab. Why the heck would a lab send it's own tester? That violates the principle of anonymity completely. You can't just send a guy out to come back saying, "look I've got Lance Armstrong's blood!, let's throw it away and say he's doped and drum up some publicity!". I know you Europeans want someone busted just because you want him bused, with know due process of any sort - but for the system to work there needs to be rules.

Anyhow, Jorg Jakshe would say yes to the original question:

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/jaks...ill-be-a-doper
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Old 06-27-09, 08:13 AM   #16
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But on the slight chance that Lance wins the tour this year ...
I would expect monkeys to fly out of his butt.
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Old 06-27-09, 10:43 AM   #17
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I wonder if it's possible that Lance just had the best team which catapulted him to the top, rather than the infamous EPO drug allegations. Also doesn't he have some kind of alien rare vO2 max or something?
OMG You're kidding, right?
If a bunch of angry overweight 'net nerds can't convince
you of Lance's guilt, then there's no hope for you. Do some
research on the 'net before you get owend by the likes of brainiacs
like bellweatherman and Howzit. You know, they're just biding their
time before they blow the Lance conspiracy of him buying everyone...
well, amost everyone. Then you'll see that your hero is disgraced. /sarcasm
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Old 06-27-09, 11:55 AM   #18
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OMG You're kidding, right?
If a bunch of angry overweight 'net nerds can't convince
you of Lance's guilt, then there's no hope for you. Do some
research on the 'net before you get owend by the likes of brainiacs
like bellweatherman and Howzit. You know, they're just biding their
time before they blow the Lance conspiracy of him buying everyone...
well, amost everyone. Then you'll see that your hero is disgraced. /sarcasm
whow, whow, whow, dont bring ME into this. Its Lance that cheated not me. LOL
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Old 06-27-09, 12:03 PM   #19
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I would expect monkeys to fly out of his butt.
I'd pay to see that...as long as they ain't them nasty little monkeys from the Wizard of Oz.

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Old 06-27-09, 07:10 PM   #20
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Well until there is PROOF I will abstain from judgement. The Lance cheated threads are getting old, there are only about 500 in here. This race could be a whole hell of alot of fun and yet, this is all some bozos have to talk about....pity.

Cheers,

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Old 06-27-09, 07:51 PM   #21
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I'd love proof that shows he's the ONLY rider that gets a half hour to break away from the tester when they show up. I'm assuming you're talking about the one instance he went public about going to shower when an unknown frenchman showed up at his door when he came home after an 8 hour training session and told him he had to do a test right then, but failed to show legitament credentials. If that's the instance you are referring too then you just keep on being a nay-sayer. Even the tester himself was later interviewed saying he didn't mind at all if Lance went to go shower while they called around to find out who this guy was.

And to all the people who say that Lance Armstrong is even cause he doped and cheated and that he's never won a race without cheating... I don't deny that he cheated in the past and most likely was using EPO or something like it during some if not all of the previous TdF's he won, but how is that different from every other cyclist in each of those races with him. If you don't like it, then don't watch. Go ride on your own two wheels and feel better about yourself because you don't dope, but even though Lance armstrong isn't doping there's no possible way that ANY of us could keep up with him. An extraordinary athlete is still an extraordinary athlete with or without drugs; why does it matter if he's 10% better than you or 50% better than you?

I agree whole heartedly that it's an inspirational tale of an American 'hero' that gives everyone in need hope. If he has to do things behind the scenes to keep hope alive then so be it. I just hope he doesn't get caught and go down in flames, bursting millions of dreams with him.

(It's like 3am, so if there are more than a few run-on sentences then please forgive me)

Well, the question from the original poster was, 'if Armstrong wins, do you think it was doping?' The answer is yes. I do think it is doping.

And the event I am referring to is the controversial out-of-competition test that Armstrong had this year. You say yourself that the tester, "didn't mind at all if Lance went to go shower while they called around to find out who this guy was." That is my point. Armstrong has special considerations. Per the rules, no rider is allowed to leave a tester's sight upon notification of a drug test. However, it's clear from the test earlier this year that Armstrong gets to do this and other riders do not.
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Old 06-27-09, 07:55 PM   #22
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The only way LA can win the TDF this year is if the top 15 GC riders all get busted for doping.

And while I won't get into the past, it seems highly unlikely that he's doping these days. The motivation isn't there, since really the best it would do is bump him up 1 or 2 slots; and he hardly looked superhuman at the Giro. He's been away too long, he doesn't have the unswerving dedication of a team behind him, he is not going to win and he knows it. No one explicitly says it on Astana though, mostly to psych out the other teams and force them to pay more attention to him than they should.

P.S. Go Schleck Brothers
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Old 06-27-09, 10:02 PM   #23
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Well, the question from the original poster was, 'if Armstrong wins, do you think it was doping?' The answer is yes. I do think it is doping.

And the event I am referring to is the controversial out-of-competition test that Armstrong had this year. You say yourself that the tester, "didn't mind at all if Lance went to go shower while they called around to find out who this guy was." That is my point. Armstrong has special considerations. Per the rules, no rider is allowed to leave a tester's sight upon notification of a drug test. However, it's clear from the test earlier this year that Armstrong gets to do this and other riders do not.
I don't think you would have ever heard about it if it was another rider. This is only really big news because he has become so transparent about his drug testing.

I agree that I don't think Armstrong will win, I think he has other intentions for coming back, but I still stand behind him and will support him all the way. (I still think Contador is gonna win it )
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Old 06-27-09, 10:29 PM   #24
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I don't think you would have ever heard about it if it was another rider. This is only really big news because he has become so transparent about his drug testing.

I agree that I don't think Armstrong will win, I think he has other intentions for coming back, but I still stand behind him and will support him all the way. (I still think Contador is gonna win it )


Yeah, but he asked if people thought Armstrong's win, assuming he does win, would be because of doping. Yes. It's not that I don't think Armstrong has talent, but his talent doesn't supercede others without the use of drugs. In my opinion.

Armstrong gets special considerations. The rules are different for him. The tester, earlier this year at an out-of-competition drug test, allowed Armstrong to leave for a half hour before his drug test. This does not happen for other riders.
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Old 06-27-09, 11:41 PM   #25
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You keep saying the same thing over and over. We get it, you don't like that test, but when has it happened before? You're absolutely hung up on this one test, yet he has passed numerous other out-of-competition tests prior to and after that test without issues with being in visual range of the tester... why are you so hung up?

And to give you some feedback on your statement:
Quote:
but his talent doesn't supercede others without the use of drugs.
If X =1, Y = 1 and where Z = doping, then we can infer that X + Z = Y + Z... so why does his natural talent have any diminished effect vs other riders that ALSO dope?
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