I'm going to miss not seeing him at the Tour.
I'm going to miss not seeing him at the Tour.
Well that certainly spells out the rift on Astana so it will be interesting to see how this all unfolds in the Tour. Too bad Horner was the one that got caught in the middle of it. There are too few Americans in the Tour to begin with. It's time to find a new sponsor for this team obviously.
Well written and informative. Some thoughts:
Given the demand for a Kazakh on the team, there were only eight roster spots open. Let's hope Muravyev is up to it.
Don't get on Contador for pushing Paulinho. First, Paulinho is a very good rider who many picked to the Tour team. Second, a reason Lance was so successful was that he was able to strongly influence team composition. It made for a cohesive team. We should not fault Alberto for trying to do the same thing. Third, 90% of this here game is 2/3 mental. If the best rider and team leader can best be supported mentally by having his buddy along, then send his buddy - even if his buddy can't ride as well as Paulinho.
The competition seems to have been between Zubeldia, Popovych, Rast, and Horrner. Zubeldia and Popovych are obviously in top form this year. Rast I don't know about. So factor in team roles. Apparently Horner thinks that Rast is the best choice for his role. He also didn't dispute that Z & P have roles.
Which unfortunately leaves Horner the odd man out, dammit.
Let's pray that the Kazakhs lose their selection next year.
Stupidity got us into this mess - why can't it get us out?
- Will Rogers
Chris needs to stop whining and go race other races. He is acting like he was Tour favorite and this was a big turn in events.
He most probably wouldnt even have even finished the Tour.
Put a sock in it and get on with it. Acting like its such an injustice to have a rider thats got no Tour results off the TDF roster, typical yankee attitude, expecting entitlement because he won some criteriums in the US.
Lastly he is on a Team with some of the most egotistical riders the peleton has ever seen, Lance and crew, what would he expect?????
Im sure they smile to his face, but at the end of the day, like Chris himself admits, politics got him off. Why is this such a surprise to him on Team with media *****s like Alberto and Lance?
Advice for Chris: Join a smaller French team with cool people. Dont mix up with people like Lance and Alberto. They have far, far, far, far, far more political greed, power hunger and steak in the game to care about his dreams of racing his bike in the TDF
Now just to be clear, IM not saying Chris doesnt deserve to go, in fact I feel bad fro him, and hence my sharp words, coz it pisses me off, and he seems like a really nice guy; what Im saying is that he shouldnt act like this is big news, when you are involved with people like Lance and Alberto, he kinda shot himself in the foot getting involved with that crew. It aggravating to see a good person slapped around because of people who have greed as their agenda (Lance and crew)
Now, if his goal is to become one of these politically, power and money, cheating scoundrel driven riders, then sure he is in with the right crowd, but it seems like Chris is an inocent rider who just loves the sport.
Last edited by Howzit; 06-27-09 at 01:30 PM.
In the past, it was true that Horner has been known as somewhat of a whiner. So, in that regard I think Howitz was 100% correct on that. Personally, I've reserved judgement on him because I think he basically got unfairly labeled as the scapegoat when he was riding on Cadel Evans' team. Mostly when he needed to step up and ride hard he didn't. At least, that was the criticism during his previous years, whether true or not.
personally, i thought that horner had more talent and form than
many of his teammates during his two stints on the european scene
but got relegated to lesser races/duties. he's never struck me as the shrinking
violet type and his attitude/mouth may have upset the team "dynamic"
leading to his lack of results. Kicked some serious assets domestically
though. in the twilight of his career, he's seems to have mellowed somewhat.
hopefully, he'll do the vuelta and stomp some spanish climbing rumpus!
To add support to me earlier statement, and how fitting is it, that George Hincape went through a little of what Horner is going through as a result of politics from people like Lance.
George, in my opinion, is one of the greatest riders to come out of the USA. Unfortunately for him, years of his career went without support because of power hungry media whoring Lance.
ALL of his classics races he did after 2000 were basically just him solo without ANY help because the whole squad was so focused on Lance.
Now Im not saying that there is anything wrong with that, because A) George could have left if he wanted to, it was Georges choice to stay, and B) if you have a Tour fav, or Tour defending champ, then of course you need to base the team around that.
The point Im trying to make is that for people like Horner or George, their personal ambitions are COMPLETELY out the window as a result, in favor for people like Lance and Alberto.
Thats just the way it is.
Sad for Chris Horner, but then again, it was a given, and deep inside, he knew that phone call was coming.
Whats even sadder, is that that would be 2 (Horner, George) GREAT American riders hopes and efforts ruined by ONE power hungry ego-driven American rider (Lance).
George and Horner could do as much good for American cycling to help put it on the map in Europe.
And when Lance gets busted, its waste all around.
Last edited by Howzit; 06-28-09 at 02:44 AM.
could hincapie or horner have gotten more wins/results if they had been with different
teams over the years-possibly/probably. there is something to be said, however, about
athletes who know exactly how good they are (relative to their peers) and those who don't.
it's amplified in sports such as american football, basketball, baseball (& soccer/football to
a lesser degree) because of the huge salaries. when it's free agency time, there are always
some who succeed spectacularly but many who do not. many times, it's because that particular
athlete has found their perfect "niche." whether it's in a support role or as a team leader, they have
an ideal situation in which to thrive. how many times have you seen an athlete on your
favorite team go on to greater achievements on another after being traded/waived/released/
signed? more often than you like-right? some "devolve" after leaving the squad they enhanced
so brilliantly-usually for more money. riders like hincapie & horner seem like a dime a dozen
to the casual observer. to the rabid fan, they are the lifeblood of the sport-not the champions
they supported during their careers. the passionate fans celebrate every seemingly minor
achievement for the domestiques because they remind us of ourselves; underdogs in a world
designed to recognize results without critical analysis.
^^^ Yeah - what he said! ^^^
Man, you guys act like there's something low or dishonorable in being the best domestique in the peloton. Nothing could be farther from the truth. Chris is one of the very best as is Big George. Both extremely capable and valuable in the "road boss" role and extremely versatile - being able to both roll hard on the flats and lead at least the low climbs and occasionally the high ones. Chris had expected to be on the TdF team not because he expected to win but because he's one of the world's top domestiques. It's a team sport - not everyone can be the star. For every Michael Jordon there's a Scottie Pippen and a Steve Kerr. Being the best at what you do is enough for most folks. In my experience - and completely making a generalization here - the European fans get that in cycling more than the American fans. I get it though, but then I was about the only guy in Denver who thought the Iverson for Billups trade was fantastic (I was right).
I don't get Howzit's argument at all. How the heck was Hincapie's career hurt by Lance? Yeah, perhaps he could have gotten a Classic win or two if he'd focused more on them than prepping to tow Lance around France every July. Maybe - there's an awfully big gap between the classics and July, however and he was never going to be a true Grand Tour contender. What DID happen, however, is that he made a heck of a nice living and a HUGE name for himself towing the Big Texan around every summer in the biggest event in the sport. There might not be many kids in the US with Hincapie posters on their wall (my son being an exception to that!) but there sure are in Europe. Big name, big salary, big Nike contract, big Oakley contract. There are a LOT of pro athletes that would give their right eye for a career like that. The vast majority of them! I doubt you'd ever catch George *****in' about it.
Chris Horner? He wouldn't be racing AT ALL in Europe right now if it wasn't for his value in the lead domstique role. Astana didn't hire him to win Grand Tours - they hired him to help other guys win Grand Tours.
Howzit, I assume from your comments that you're the CEO of a major company, right? Me? I'm a pro engineer. They pay me well and coddle me a bit for my value in the engineering lead role. I don't complain that I'm not the CEO. That's not what they pay me for. Pro sports is the same thing - you get paid to do a job. Only one or two guys per team get paid to be the star. Everyone else gets paid to help those stars be stars.
I can't blame Contador for not wanting Horner on the team. The last thing he needs is all of Team Livestrong coming at him. Hinault sure regretted having Hampsten on the team in '86.
Man - for such a common cliche it's amazing how many people don't know that there's no I in Team!
Last edited by GV27; 06-28-09 at 09:51 PM.
Teams like Domo not only got Classic wins, they got Grand Tour stages too. The whole US Postal thing was so skewed its not even funny.
The last thing to remember is that in Europe, national pride is a BIG deal. Most prejudices in fact are over nationality than race. To race on a Team that from your own country is a great honor. George had his home in US Postal, for any pro its a major part of your life, the team you ride for. So its not like he just "chose" to ride for US Postal and had a "fat" contract. Yes you are right for the most part about sports, endorsements, salary and niches, but cycling is a little different to your NASCAR, NBA and NFL.
This thread is about Chris, so Ill end with him.
He made good comments on his blog, politically covered is behind, said good things about Lance, and his Team Director, played it safe. Not burning bridges is a good thing.
Last edited by Howzit; 06-29-09 at 03:33 AM.
I think we should re-relabel the thread ... before it became Professional Cycling we didn't have RR, Howitz or Bellwhomever here.
The references to Lance were few, moderated by civility and the only thing bordering on manic was the laughter at Boonen's party problem.
Now we've got a freak fest with everyone thinking that the whole world is in on this insane "Lance/Did he dope/What if he wins" debate.
Oh yeah, sorry Howzit. I forgot that Lance Armstrong = Hillary Clinton = Satan. My bad.
Maybe we should just relabel the whole forum section "Lance Armstrong is the Devil"?
Last edited by GV27; 06-29-09 at 11:51 AM.
it could happen
There is no i in team but there is a me.
No way. No CEO has the time that Howzit lavishes on his "L=D" campaign, and no (successful) CEO has that level of monomania.Howzit, I assume from your comments that you're the CEO of a major company, right?
All we know about Howzit is that he is a Francophile that types the good English and hates Lance Armstrong with a Latin passion.
Stupidity got us into this mess - why can't it get us out?
- Will Rogers
Marsha, Marsha, Marsha!
"Let us hope our weapons are never needed --but do not forget what the common people knew when they demanded the Bill of Rights: An armed citizenry is the first defense, the best defense, and the final defense against tyranny. If guns are outlawed, only the government will have guns. Only the police, the secret police, the military, the hired servants of our rulers. Only the government -- and a few outlaws. I intend to be among the outlaws" - Edward Abbey
As for Lance, you dont SOME of you monkeys get of my back.
First off, Lance is the Team captain of the said Team that Horner is whining about, so why wouldent Lances names come up?
Secondly, Chris Horner mentions Lance is his blog a few times, so why wouldent Lances name come up? And lastly, the composition of the team has a lot to do with Lance, so again, why wouldent I bring up Lances name?
As for Lance being the devil? No I dont think so, even the devil has his limits, as demonstrated in South Park.