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Old 06-27-09, 07:40 AM   #1
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A Classy Response from Horner

I'm going to miss not seeing him at the Tour.

http://blog.oregonlive.com/horner/20..._explains.html
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Old 06-27-09, 09:16 AM   #2
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Sucks.
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Old 06-27-09, 11:25 AM   #3
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Well that certainly spells out the rift on Astana so it will be interesting to see how this all unfolds in the Tour. Too bad Horner was the one that got caught in the middle of it. There are too few Americans in the Tour to begin with. It's time to find a new sponsor for this team obviously.
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Old 06-27-09, 11:43 AM   #4
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Well written and informative. Some thoughts:

Given the demand for a Kazakh on the team, there were only eight roster spots open. Let's hope Muravyev is up to it.

Don't get on Contador for pushing Paulinho. First, Paulinho is a very good rider who many picked to the Tour team. Second, a reason Lance was so successful was that he was able to strongly influence team composition. It made for a cohesive team. We should not fault Alberto for trying to do the same thing. Third, 90% of this here game is 2/3 mental. If the best rider and team leader can best be supported mentally by having his buddy along, then send his buddy - even if his buddy can't ride as well as Paulinho.

The competition seems to have been between Zubeldia, Popovych, Rast, and Horrner. Zubeldia and Popovych are obviously in top form this year. Rast I don't know about. So factor in team roles. Apparently Horner thinks that Rast is the best choice for his role. He also didn't dispute that Z & P have roles.

Which unfortunately leaves Horner the odd man out, dammit.

Let's pray that the Kazakhs lose their selection next year.
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Old 06-27-09, 12:09 PM   #5
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Well written and informative. Some thoughts:

Given the demand for a Kazakh on the team, there were only eight roster spots open. Let's hope Muravyev is up to it.

Don't get on Contador for pushing Paulinho. First, Paulinho is a very good rider who many picked to the Tour team. Second, a reason Lance was so successful was that he was able to strongly influence team composition. It made for a cohesive team. We should not fault Alberto for trying to do the same thing. Third, 90% of this here game is 2/3 mental. If the best rider and team leader can best be supported mentally by having his buddy along, then send his buddy - even if his buddy can't ride as well as Paulinho.

The competition seems to have been between Zubeldia, Popovych, Rast, and Horrner. Zubeldia and Popovych are obviously in top form this year. Rast I don't know about. So factor in team roles. Apparently Horner thinks that Rast is the best choice for his role. He also didn't dispute that Z & P have roles.

Which unfortunately leaves Horner the odd man out......
Well said.
Chris needs to stop whining and go race other races. He is acting like he was Tour favorite and this was a big turn in events.
He most probably wouldnt even have even finished the Tour.
Put a sock in it and get on with it. Acting like its such an injustice to have a rider thats got no Tour results off the TDF roster, typical yankee attitude, expecting entitlement because he won some criteriums in the US.
Lastly he is on a Team with some of the most egotistical riders the peleton has ever seen, Lance and crew, what would he expect?????
Im sure they smile to his face, but at the end of the day, like Chris himself admits, politics got him off. Why is this such a surprise to him on Team with media *****s like Alberto and Lance?

Advice for Chris: Join a smaller French team with cool people. Dont mix up with people like Lance and Alberto. They have far, far, far, far, far more political greed, power hunger and steak in the game to care about his dreams of racing his bike in the TDF

Now just to be clear, IM not saying Chris doesnt deserve to go, in fact I feel bad fro him, and hence my sharp words, coz it pisses me off, and he seems like a really nice guy; what Im saying is that he shouldnt act like this is big news, when you are involved with people like Lance and Alberto, he kinda shot himself in the foot getting involved with that crew. It aggravating to see a good person slapped around because of people who have greed as their agenda (Lance and crew)
Now, if his goal is to become one of these politically, power and money, cheating scoundrel driven riders, then sure he is in with the right crowd, but it seems like Chris is an inocent rider who just loves the sport.

Last edited by Howzit; 06-27-09 at 12:30 PM.
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Old 06-27-09, 12:57 PM   #6
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Third, 90% of this here game is 2/3 mental.
Yogi would like that.
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Old 06-27-09, 02:41 PM   #7
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Advice for Chris: Join a smaller French team with cool people.
Irony, right?
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Old 06-27-09, 02:44 PM   #8
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Well said.
Chris needs to stop whining and go race other races. He is acting like he was Tour favorite and this was a big turn in events.
He most probably wouldnt even have even finished the Tour.
Put a sock in it and get on with it. Acting like its such an injustice to have a rider thats got no Tour results off the TDF roster, typical yankee attitude, expecting entitlement because he won some criteriums in the US.
Lastly he is on a Team with some of the most egotistical riders the peleton has ever seen, Lance and crew, what would he expect?????
Im sure they smile to his face, but at the end of the day, like Chris himself admits, politics got him off. Why is this such a surprise to him on Team with media *****s like Alberto and Lance?

Advice for Chris: Join a smaller French team with cool people. Dont mix up with people like Lance and Alberto. They have far, far, far, far, far more political greed, power hunger and steak in the game to care about his dreams of racing his bike in the TDF

Now just to be clear, IM not saying Chris doesnt deserve to go, in fact I feel bad fro him, and hence my sharp words, coz it pisses me off, and he seems like a really nice guy; what Im saying is that he shouldnt act like this is big news, when you are involved with people like Lance and Alberto, he kinda shot himself in the foot getting involved with that crew. It aggravating to see a good person slapped around because of people who have greed as their agenda (Lance and crew)
Now, if his goal is to become one of these politically, power and money, cheating scoundrel driven riders, then sure he is in with the right crowd, but it seems like Chris is an inocent rider who just loves the sport.
I notice that you're quite new here, and that you already tried to edit your post. It looks as though you didn't edit enough, so I've highlighted the problem areas in red.
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Old 06-27-09, 08:07 PM   #9
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I notice that you're quite new here, and that you already tried to edit your post. It looks as though you didn't edit enough, so I've highlighted the problem areas in red.
Heh?
You are saying he doesnt love the sport?
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Old 06-27-09, 08:11 PM   #10
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In the past, it was true that Horner has been known as somewhat of a whiner. So, in that regard I think Howitz was 100% correct on that. Personally, I've reserved judgement on him because I think he basically got unfairly labeled as the scapegoat when he was riding on Cadel Evans' team. Mostly when he needed to step up and ride hard he didn't. At least, that was the criticism during his previous years, whether true or not.
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Old 06-28-09, 12:58 AM   #11
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personally, i thought that horner had more talent and form than
many of his teammates during his two stints on the european scene
but got relegated to lesser races/duties. he's never struck me as the shrinking
violet type and his attitude/mouth may have upset the team "dynamic"
leading to his lack of results. Kicked some serious assets domestically
though. in the twilight of his career, he's seems to have mellowed somewhat.
hopefully, he'll do the vuelta and stomp some spanish climbing rumpus!
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Old 06-28-09, 01:37 AM   #12
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To add support to me earlier statement, and how fitting is it, that George Hincape went through a little of what Horner is going through as a result of politics from people like Lance.

George, in my opinion, is one of the greatest riders to come out of the USA. Unfortunately for him, years of his career went without support because of power hungry media whoring Lance.
ALL of his classics races he did after 2000 were basically just him solo without ANY help because the whole squad was so focused on Lance.
Now Im not saying that there is anything wrong with that, because A) George could have left if he wanted to, it was Georges choice to stay, and B) if you have a Tour fav, or Tour defending champ, then of course you need to base the team around that.

The point Im trying to make is that for people like Horner or George, their personal ambitions are COMPLETELY out the window as a result, in favor for people like Lance and Alberto.
Thats just the way it is.
Sad for Chris Horner, but then again, it was a given, and deep inside, he knew that phone call was coming.

Whats even sadder, is that that would be 2 (Horner, George) GREAT American riders hopes and efforts ruined by ONE power hungry ego-driven American rider (Lance).
George and Horner could do as much good for American cycling to help put it on the map in Europe.
And when Lance gets busted, its waste all around.

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Old 06-28-09, 02:08 AM   #13
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could hincapie or horner have gotten more wins/results if they had been with different
teams over the years-possibly/probably. there is something to be said, however, about
athletes who know exactly how good they are (relative to their peers) and those who don't.
it's amplified in sports such as american football, basketball, baseball (& soccer/football to
a lesser degree) because of the huge salaries. when it's free agency time, there are always
some who succeed spectacularly but many who do not. many times, it's because that particular
athlete has found their perfect "niche." whether it's in a support role or as a team leader, they have
an ideal situation in which to thrive. how many times have you seen an athlete on your
favorite team go on to greater achievements on another after being traded/waived/released/
signed? more often than you like-right? some "devolve" after leaving the squad they enhanced
so brilliantly-usually for more money. riders like hincapie & horner seem like a dime a dozen
to the casual observer. to the rabid fan, they are the lifeblood of the sport-not the champions
they supported during their careers. the passionate fans celebrate every seemingly minor
achievement for the domestiques because they remind us of ourselves; underdogs in a world
designed to recognize results without critical analysis.
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Old 06-28-09, 07:51 PM   #14
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^^^ Yeah - what he said! ^^^

Man, you guys act like there's something low or dishonorable in being the best domestique in the peloton. Nothing could be farther from the truth. Chris is one of the very best as is Big George. Both extremely capable and valuable in the "road boss" role and extremely versatile - being able to both roll hard on the flats and lead at least the low climbs and occasionally the high ones. Chris had expected to be on the TdF team not because he expected to win but because he's one of the world's top domestiques. It's a team sport - not everyone can be the star. For every Michael Jordon there's a Scottie Pippen and a Steve Kerr. Being the best at what you do is enough for most folks. In my experience - and completely making a generalization here - the European fans get that in cycling more than the American fans. I get it though, but then I was about the only guy in Denver who thought the Iverson for Billups trade was fantastic (I was right).

I don't get Howzit's argument at all. How the heck was Hincapie's career hurt by Lance? Yeah, perhaps he could have gotten a Classic win or two if he'd focused more on them than prepping to tow Lance around France every July. Maybe - there's an awfully big gap between the classics and July, however and he was never going to be a true Grand Tour contender. What DID happen, however, is that he made a heck of a nice living and a HUGE name for himself towing the Big Texan around every summer in the biggest event in the sport. There might not be many kids in the US with Hincapie posters on their wall (my son being an exception to that!) but there sure are in Europe. Big name, big salary, big Nike contract, big Oakley contract. There are a LOT of pro athletes that would give their right eye for a career like that. The vast majority of them! I doubt you'd ever catch George *****in' about it.

Chris Horner? He wouldn't be racing AT ALL in Europe right now if it wasn't for his value in the lead domstique role. Astana didn't hire him to win Grand Tours - they hired him to help other guys win Grand Tours.

Howzit, I assume from your comments that you're the CEO of a major company, right? Me? I'm a pro engineer. They pay me well and coddle me a bit for my value in the engineering lead role. I don't complain that I'm not the CEO. That's not what they pay me for. Pro sports is the same thing - you get paid to do a job. Only one or two guys per team get paid to be the star. Everyone else gets paid to help those stars be stars.

I can't blame Contador for not wanting Horner on the team. The last thing he needs is all of Team Livestrong coming at him. Hinault sure regretted having Hampsten on the team in '86.

Man - for such a common cliche it's amazing how many people don't know that there's no I in Team!

Chris

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Old 06-29-09, 02:00 AM   #15
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To add support to me earlier statement, and how fitting is it, that George Hincape went through a little of what Horner is going through as a result of politics from people like Lance.

George, in my opinion, is one of the greatest riders to come out of the USA. Unfortunately for him, years of his career went without support because of power hungry media whoring Lance.
ALL of his classics races he did after 2000 were basically just him solo without ANY help because the whole squad was so focused on Lance.
Now Im not saying that there is anything wrong with that, because A) George could have left if he wanted to, it was Georges choice to stay, and B) if you have a Tour fav, or Tour defending champ, then of course you need to base the team around that.The point Im trying to make is that for people like Horner or George, their personal ambitions are COMPLETELY out the window as a result, in favor for people like Lance and Alberto.
Thats just the way it is.
Sad for Chris Horner, but then again, it was a given, and deep inside, he knew that phone call was coming.

Whats even sadder, is that that would be 2 (Horner, George) GREAT American riders hopes and efforts ruined by ONE power hungry ego-driven American rider
(Lance).
George and Horner could do as much good for American cycling to help put it on the map in Europe.
And when
Lance gets busted, its waste all around.
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Old 06-29-09, 02:26 AM   #16
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Man, you guys act like there's something low or dishonorable in being the best domestique in the peloton. Nothing could be farther from the truth. Chris is one of the very best as is Big George...........
.........Chris had expected to be on the TdF team not because he expected to win but because he's one of the world's top domestiques.......
Now lets not get carried away, settle down. Horner is NO WHERE near a good a rider as George....neither does he fall into the category of "one of the world's top domestiques" by a really, really long shot, but I guess as a Super Bowl is a "WORLD" championship game, I guess a US champion is a WORLD champion, LOL


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I don't get Howzit's argument at all. How the heck was Hincapie's career hurt by Lance? Yeah, perhaps he could have gotten a Classic win or two if he'd focused more on them than prepping to tow Lance around France every July.
Yes, you dont get it, which is fine. George was COMPLETELY isolated in the classic races. And please, realize that a lot of these classic races are regarded a big a victory as the Grand Tours. Be it Domo, Mapai, Liquigas, Cofidis, Lampre, T-Mobile you name a team, they would try to get at least 3 guys in for a win, Geroge was completely alone. In the pro circuit this is a MAJOR issue, if you have a race favorite for consecutive years have absolutely no one there to help him.
Teams like Domo not only got Classic wins, they got Grand Tour stages too. The whole US Postal thing was so skewed its not even funny.

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Howzit, I assume from your comments that you're the CEO of a major company, right? Me? I'm a pro engineer. They pay me well and coddle me a bit for my value in the engineering lead role. I don't complain that I'm not the CEO. That's not what they pay me for. Pro sports is the same thing - you get paid to do a job. Only one or two guys per team get paid to be the star. Everyone else gets paid to help those stars be stars.
Exactly!! Wow, now imagine what? Chris Horner is doing just that. Whining that he doesnt get to go is IF HE was going to get a major result. You just added to MY point, thank you. I guess you do get it after all.

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Man - for such a common cliche it's amazing how many people don't know that there's no I in Team!
You would be wrong on that sir. With Lance, its all about him, the almighty "i"

The last thing to remember is that in Europe, national pride is a BIG deal. Most prejudices in fact are over nationality than race. To race on a Team that from your own country is a great honor. George had his home in US Postal, for any pro its a major part of your life, the team you ride for. So its not like he just "chose" to ride for US Postal and had a "fat" contract. Yes you are right for the most part about sports, endorsements, salary and niches, but cycling is a little different to your NASCAR, NBA and NFL.

This thread is about Chris, so Ill end with him.
He made good comments on his blog, politically covered is behind, said good things about Lance, and his Team Director, played it safe. Not burning bridges is a good thing.

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Old 06-29-09, 03:56 AM   #17
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I notice that you're quite new here, and that you already tried to edit your post. It looks as though you didn't edit enough, so I've highlighted the problem areas in red.
+1

I think we should re-relabel the thread ... before it became Professional Cycling we didn't have RR, Howitz or Bellwhomever here.

The references to Lance were few, moderated by civility and the only thing bordering on manic was the laughter at Boonen's party problem.

Now we've got a freak fest with everyone thinking that the whole world is in on this insane "Lance/Did he dope/What if he wins" debate.
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Old 06-29-09, 07:33 AM   #18
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Oh yeah, sorry Howzit. I forgot that Lance Armstrong = Hillary Clinton = Satan. My bad.

Maybe we should just relabel the whole forum section "Lance Armstrong is the Devil"?

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Exactly!! Wow, now imagine what? Chris Horner is doing just that. Whining that he doesnt get to go is IF HE was going to get a major result. You just added to MY point, thank you. I guess you do get it after all.
You really don't think that he would not have gotten a big result at the Tour? Wow - you're alone there. Most people think that Astana is a strong favorite for the Tour. They'd be a prohibitive favorite if it weren't for the strong possibility they'll implode. If Contador, Armstrong and Leipheimer work together it's hard to imagine them NOT winning the Tour. It's VERY similar to La Vie Claire in the mid-80's - and they didn't work together and STILL won. What you don't understand is that someone on the team winning the Tour is a huge result for the domestiques working for that someone.

Last edited by GV27; 06-29-09 at 10:51 AM.
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Old 06-29-09, 10:05 AM   #19
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"Lance Armstrong is the Devil"?
I wonder if we can get mod buy in for sub-forum renaming on 4/1 every year? but that would only be the beginning of the name "Lance Armstrong is the Devil, and he pushes PED's to preschool kids on the playground while injecting steroids directly into his eyes in public, but somehow no one sees it"

ROFL.
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Old 06-29-09, 10:19 AM   #20
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Old 06-29-09, 11:50 AM   #21
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There is no i in team but there is a me.
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Old 06-29-09, 12:03 PM   #22
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Howzit, I assume from your comments that you're the CEO of a major company, right?
No way. No CEO has the time that Howzit lavishes on his "L=D" campaign, and no (successful) CEO has that level of monomania.

All we know about Howzit is that he is a Francophile that types the good English and hates Lance Armstrong with a Latin passion.
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Old 06-29-09, 12:10 PM   #23
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Old 06-29-09, 12:24 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by Howzit View Post
Heh?
You are saying he doesnt love the sport?
You read it backwards, he edited out all of the red text, leaving only "Chris is a rider who just loves the sport."
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Old 06-29-09, 12:32 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by GV27 View Post
Oh yeah, sorry Howzit. I forgot that Lance Armstrong = Hillary Clinton = Satan. My bad.

Maybe we should just relabel the whole forum section "Lance Armstrong is the Devil"?



You really don't think that he would not have gotten a big result at the Tour? Wow - you're alone there. Most people think that Astana is a strong favorite for the Tour. They'd be a prohibitive favorite if it weren't for the strong possibility they'll implode. If Contador, Armstrong and Leipheimer work together it's hard to imagine them NOT winning the Tour. It's VERY similar to La Vie Claire in the mid-80's - and they didn't work together and STILL won. What you don't understand is that someone on the team winning the Tour is a huge result for the domestiques working for that someone.
No, I meant that Chris Horner was not going to win the Tour this year.

As for Lance, you dont SOME of you monkeys get of my back.
First off, Lance is the Team captain of the said Team that Horner is whining about, so why wouldent Lances names come up?
Secondly, Chris Horner mentions Lance is his blog a few times, so why wouldent Lances name come up? And lastly, the composition of the team has a lot to do with Lance, so again, why wouldent I bring up Lances name?

As for Lance being the devil? No I dont think so, even the devil has his limits, as demonstrated in South Park.
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